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2008 Phaeton vs 2011 Allegro Red


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#1 WhiteEagle

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 01:26 PM

Wondering if any of the forum members that have knowledge of these MH have opinions / advice on them..
I currently have 2007 Winnebago Voyage 35A Ford v10 Triton with only 15000 mi but considering selling it or trade in on one of the above MH to get little larger, little newer, maybe go to DP for more mountain and continuous traveling now that local shop can service diesel for routine maintenance if/when.

That being the case, I've looked at the 2008 Phaeton 40ft 380 Cummins.

Also the 2011 Allegro Red 38ft - Freightliner raised rail chassis with full air ride, air brakes, Allison 6 speed, dual fuel fills, - Cummins ISB 6.7 340HP 2800RPM -Allison 2500 auto transmission ...

Is this engine enough for comfortable mountain driving?

Any opinions on these vs 2008 Winnebago Journey 40ft ?
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#2 kingfr

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 03:50 PM

I can't speak for the RED's mountain climbing ability, but the 2008 Phaeton, with 360 hp and 1050 ft lbs of torque climbs nicely. We have traveled all over the west, including the Rockies and Sierra's and are in the Appalachians right now with no power problems at all. We have had the same issues with curvy roads as any 40ft coach pulling a Toad will have. The 340 hp Red sounds good, and probably gets better fuel economy than the 360 Phaeton, but 1050 ft lbs of torque trumps 660 ft lbs any day. Torque is what moves these things up mountains, not HP. Also, I prefer the Allison 3000 to the Allison 2500. The 2500 is why the RED is only rated to tow 5000 lbs. As far as Tiffin vs Winnebago, they are both good coaches. I do not know what the power train in the Journey is. My memory says that 2008 Journeys had ISB engines and 2500 transmissions. If that is so, that could be an issue. I think that the Journey is a bigger, heavier coach than the RED. Go to WWW.tiffinrvnetwork.com for more information than you can stand.

You can't beat Tiffin's service!
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Frank
Kay - Co-pilot
Allie - Beagle

Rascal - Beagle

2015 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Toad
F294035
"Not All Who Wander Are Lost"
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood!"


#3 WhiteEagle

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 11:00 PM

Thanks for the insight..
The Red with the 340hp and 660 torque is maybe an issue ... and if I can compare to what I already have,
The 2007 winnebago 35A has the 6.8 Triton v10 - gives 342 HP and apparently 450 # torque with max weight without toad of 22,000#
The Red would be 340 hp with 660 torque with max weight without toad of 29,500# ... so I'm not actually sure I'm gaining anything in "power" ??
This stuff is beyond my understanding ....The difference may be in that the Triton peak power torque is at 4750 RPM whereas the peak on the 340 Cummins is supposedly at 1600RPM... Does this mean anything ? .. does it imply much more room for added power on the Red ???
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2009 Allegro Bus 40 QSP-Powerglide-Cummins ISL 8.9L DP-Allison 3000 6speed-2 stage Jake EB-Pressure Pro -Blue Ox Plate, Bar, Patriot Braking system-XtraRide Platinum Warranty FMCA Badgers-Allegro Club WAW- -CoachNet Platinum Roadside-Progressive Insur.

Everything's Relative - Unless Something Changes, Nothing Will


#4 wolfe10

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:14 AM

Yes, you have touches on two important issues when looking at power:

1. It is not just power, but POWER TO WEIGHT ratio that is important.

2. While a HP is a HP be it gasoline or diesel (they can all do the same amount of work), the RPM at which that HP is generated may (diesels) or may not (gasoline engines) be at an RPM that the engine can safely sustain for long periods of time. As a corollary, high torque at lower RPM's translates into less downshifting on grades.

And, while power is important, there are many happy owners of coaches whose power to weight ratios mean they may climb those steep grades a few MPH slower than others. That bothers some people, not others.

For an understanding of how HP and weight affect heavy vehicles such as motorhomes, you might read this from Caterpillar Corporation: http://catrvclub.org...erformance .pdf

Brett
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#5 pianoguy

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 02:04 PM

Not knowledgeable on those specific year models. We did, however, last week just purchase a 2003 Phaeton with the CAT 330 HP diesel. It's 29,410 - GVWR 25,553 - Unloaded Weight with fuel.

It has 3 sliders and an Onan diesel generator that slides out the front.

With 50 gallons of diesel, no water in the fresh water tank I can say that it has no problem power wise. On one of the first trips driving it with my wife following she complained that I was driving too fast.

While there's many differences from a 2008 to a 2003 Phaeton I do know that a couple of people in the RV business commented very favorably on the Phaeton. There were alot of nice details I noticed in the 6 days we've had it. The under body of the motorhome is insulated, fit and finish seemed good.

Test drive both, take a look at the layout, features and see which one you like the best.
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#6 WhiteEagle

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 03:38 PM

Can cancel this thread.. When I went to make offer on the 2008 Phaeton, it was sold... we ended up later in the week buying our current 2009 Allegro Bus so all is well.....
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2009 Allegro Bus 40 QSP-Powerglide-Cummins ISL 8.9L DP-Allison 3000 6speed-2 stage Jake EB-Pressure Pro -Blue Ox Plate, Bar, Patriot Braking system-XtraRide Platinum Warranty FMCA Badgers-Allegro Club WAW- -CoachNet Platinum Roadside-Progressive Insur.

Everything's Relative - Unless Something Changes, Nothing Will


#7 kingfr

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 05:24 PM

Can cancel this thread.. When I went to make offer on the 2008 Phaeton, it was sold... we ended up later in the week buying our current 2009 Allegro Bus so all is well.....


:) :) :)
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Frank
Kay - Co-pilot
Allie - Beagle

Rascal - Beagle

2015 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Toad
F294035
"Not All Who Wander Are Lost"
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood!"


#8 Bikerman

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 02:09 AM

Hello to all,

I think I start this by saying I don't work for this Company I will talk about. I'm just a satisfied Customer sharing with friends. My wife and I are soon to be full-timer's and I have researched this topic pretty well (I think), We currently have a Gas RV, but are moving to a Diesel.

I have purchased the 2009-2011 RV Comparison Guide from J.R. Consumer Resources Inc. @ www.jrconsumer.com. What I learned was very helpful and of all the Motorhomes they reviewed, the Tiffin Motorhome was rated the best by the RV Dealers Association (RVDA), and the Customers who own them. This guide includes Buying Tips, Selling Tips, and a review of all the Manufactures. It also includes information about who is still in business and who was bought out. (e.g. Navistar Inc acquiring Holiday Rambler, a product of Monaco, and now Monaco has been renamed to Monaco RV). Most everyone already knows this by now :-).

WhiteEagle, I can definitely say you have made a very good choice. ENJOY! :). For anyone else interested in moving up to a new rig, I would recommend this Guide because it also talks about Travel Trailers, 5th Wheels, and Class C Motorhomes. It discusses the pro's and con's of each type of engine (Gas vs Diesel), provides links to Chassis builder's websites, RV Online Forums and more. This guide talks about almost every topic from Purchasing, Financing, Extended Warranties, and (if you purchase the Ultimate package, which I did), you can fill out a form and they will provide you all the details about the RV you are considering.

I have found it very useful in making my decision. If anyone is considering a newer Motorhome, I would recommend getting this guide. You can purchase it and download it for $50.00 which isn't bad for what it contains. It appears N.A.D.A. is now the "Official" source for determining the resale value of an RV and what a lot of Dealer's are using to decide what your trade-in is worth. Visit their site at www.nadaguides.com to determine the "Low" and "Average" Retail value of your coach so you will be prepared it a Dealer tries to get your Coach for less than it's really worth. I found it useful.

Hope this info. helps someone out there.

Ken and Karen Miller F332468
Portland, Oregon
Looking forward to joining the FUN!
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#9 HuntsvilleBob

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:32 AM

According to everything I've read and talking to the tour guides at Tiffin, the Phaeton is their most popular Diesel MH.  It has lots of luxury and is more affordable than the Bus.  IMHO the 340 Cummings will meet my needs as most of my traveling is east of the Rockies.  The new Phaetons come with a larger Cummings but with DEF. I have climbed the Rockies in a Gas Class C (360 Dodge Chassis) at 20MPH watching the water temp carefully and then wishing I had Exhaust Braking coming down the other side. To me, its diesel or nothing.

 

I  am looking for a 4-5 year old used Phaeton but they don't last long on the market. If I give up and go new, the RED is more affordable and can handle most of the luxury items we want. (i.e. We don't need or want the ceiling scroll-work Tiffin puts in the Phaeton and Bus.

 

At present, we can only make a couple of 2-3 week trips plus long weekends camping per year.  Retirement is just 2 more years away.


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#10 kingfr

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:57 PM

According to everything I've read and talking to the tour guides at Tiffin, the Phaeton is their most popular Diesel MH.  It has lots of luxury and is more affordable than the Bus.  IMHO the 340 Cummings will meet my needs as most of my traveling is east of the Rockies.  The new Phaetons come with a larger Cummings but with DEF. I have climbed the Rockies in a Gas Class C (360 Dodge Chassis) at 20MPH watching the water temp carefully and then wishing I had Exhaust Braking coming down the other side. To me, its diesel or nothing.

 

I  am looking for a 4-5 year old used Phaeton but they don't last long on the market. If I give up and go new, the RED is more affordable and can handle most of the luxury items we want. (i.e. We don't need or want the ceiling scroll-work Tiffin puts in the Phaeton and Bus.

 

At present, we can only make a couple of 2-3 week trips plus long weekends camping per year.  Retirement is just 2 more years away.

 

You will find that all Cummins Diesels past 2010 need DEF. Phaetons prior to 2010 do not need DEF, newer ones do. The 2500 series Allison puts a limit on your towing capacity. If you will never tow a heavier toad, you will be ok. FWIW, a late model Jeep Wrangler is 4k+ lbs, a Grand Cherokee is at 5k lbs+.


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Frank
Kay - Co-pilot
Allie - Beagle

Rascal - Beagle

2015 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Toad
F294035
"Not All Who Wander Are Lost"
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood!"


#11 rhusak

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:28 PM

Hi All..

 I strongly considered the Phaeton and the Buses. Ended up buying a Travel Supreme. I became wary when I did some due diligence and found that they had 3 or 4 common problem areas.. Roof Rails, Wet Bay drivers side slide floors delaminating and cracks at the rear slides.

 

 They are really pretty coaches and it is no wonder that they sell so well.. And Tiffin will stand behind them. But then I read that there is no appointments for out of original warranty issues and people were having to wait long periods to get repairs done. While there no less. That was what made my decision for me.

 

 I have never owned a Tiffin before or a Travel Supreme for that matter. Yes, I know its an orphan but the coach and price were right.. My 1800 mile trip home showed me I made the right choice!

 Ron


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#12 Medico

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:50 AM

First to the original OP, congrats on your Allegro Bus. That is a fantastic coach.

 

The wet floor delamination problem has been solved from what I read. The MHs having this problem were early 2000s models (possibly late 1990s as well).

 

I also believe the cracks on the rear slide were on the 45 foot coaches. I do not remember reading about this problem on the 40 or for that matter the 43 foot coaches. Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I don't think so.

 

I prefer the Allegro Bus over the Phaeton. Yes it is more money, but you get what you pay for. There is little comparison between the rides of the 2 coaches. I have driven both in 43 and 40 foot lengths and the Bus is a much smoother ride. Also the overall fit and finish of the Bus is top notch.


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#13 HuntsvilleBob

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 10:01 AM

Right now I have narrowed my search to a used 2008 or 2009 Allegro Bus (40 ft).  At 5 years old, these coaches are much more affordable and all the infant mortality of systems should be already taken care of.  With the 400+hp Cummings and no DEF, I am not worried about diesel mileage as long as it has been professionally maintained.  I am so close to the factory and that makes my choice over Thor or Winnebago.  There is even a tiffin dealer in my town for routine stuff.   

 

Although there some great prices on older buses 2004-2007, I am reluctant due immediate need to replace tires and older systems that tiffin seems to have changed in 2008.

 

I am looking for a used Jeep Patriot to used as a toad.


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#14 Medico

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

Be advised the Patriot is NOT flat towable except with manual shift.


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FMCA #F431170, GS #822128658, Escapees SKP #112655

 

2006 Country Coach Magna (525 HP Cat C13 1650 torque, Alison 4000 6 speed tranny), 2012 Jeep Liberty

 

 

CountryCoachMagna1med_zps83669550.jpg


#15 Allegiance40x

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:25 PM

... The 2500 series Allison puts a limit on your towing capacity. If you will never tow a heavier toad, you will be ok...

 

We just attended a rally and an Allison seminar.  The limiting factor for the 3000/4000 Allisons is not weight, but engine torque, don't know about the 2500 Allison.


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#16 Howde

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

Huntsville Bob, you will want to check if the Tiffin coaches you are looking at have had their wet bay, roof rails, and driver slide floor replaced or checked.  You have limited time to repair these at Tiffin's costs. 


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#17 HuntsvilleBob

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 10:37 AM

Huntsville Bob, you will want to check if the Tiffin coaches you are looking at have had their wet bay, roof rails, and driver slide floor replaced or checked.  You have limited time to repair these at Tiffin's costs. 

 

I'm sticking with the later Buses now (no older than 2008) but I am aware of the issues you highlighted.


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