30 replies to this topic

[BandM]

Time for new tires we are going up from 235 80 22.5 XZE to 255 80 22.5 The question is XRV or XZE I think the extra side wall material in the XZE might be a plus. They are also more available here in Ar.
Suggestions and comments

[Briarhopper]

Per michelinrvtires.com the XZE is in Regional tire compared to the XRV which is in their Long Haul group. By that distinction the XZE would be more suited to road and driving conditions encountered on shorter runs and urban areas, whereas the XRV more suited to the highway miles.

My speculation is the XZE will have tougher construction to stand more abuse but would wear faster on the highway and the XRV wear longer but less able to withstand the curbs and potholes of urban driving.

Note: The 255/80 is a larger diameter tire and could affect your operation and handling and will affect your speedometer. Might want to check with the coach builder before making the change just to be on the safe side. Also confirm the 255/80 is suitable for your wheel widths unless of coaurse you are buying new wheels.

[BillO]

To add to Briarhopper's comments, I suspect that the tougher construction and added sidewall material of the XZE will make for a stiffer ride, but will give added protection if you tend to rub against curbs or do a lot of tight turns on rough roads. My own experience with another brand of similar "regional" construction was that it made my coach ride like a dump truck.

In addition, the XZE has more tread which may compensate for wear over-the-road but according to one expert will reduce your mileage some and cause the tire to run hotter (see "confusion over G versus H rating " thread for some comments on that).

When I discussed similar issue with both dealer and Michelin rep they suggested XZA3+ instead of the XZE in my particular case for the above reasons.

[Briarhopper]

I should have said the XRV should wear longer on the highway. However the tread design may not stand up as well to urban driving turns and cornering and so could wear faster in urban driving.

[wolfe10]

Have run both XRV and XZE over the last 169,000 miles.

No problems with either and certainly no wear issues with either-- always replaced because of age, not wear.

Current ones are 255/80R22.5 XZE's and are 7 years old, with a little over 50,000 miles. Yes, they are very well cared for and checked annually. No problems of any kind and LOTS of tread left. Will surely replace these because of age issues as well.

But, I will point out that just yesterday in inspected a coach whose 5 year old tires were totally shot. They stored their coach outside in the high desert with no tire covers, and the sidewalls of all exterior tires were badly checked.

There is NO XX number of months and you need to replace them. As quoted by Michelin, IF, repeat IF tires are well cared for (proper inflation, never overloaded, protected from UV light when not on the road, no harmful products used on them, etc) beginning at 5 years they need to be inspected by a tire professional annually and absolutely replaced at 10 years.

Brett

[DickandLois]

Have been running XZE's on the front and XRV's on the duals just to run my own little test.

Both have run equally well. The interesting thing is the XZE has held up better regarding sidewall cracking then the XRV.

They have very close build dates, so my simple mind tells me that the two may have a little different compound mix in the rubber.
The wear is so close that they will age out before they wear out.

Rich.

[Briarhopper]

RIch,

Your test sounds interesting. I am curious how many miles you have run the tires and if mostly highway miles??

[DickandLois]

Had to look at the mileage. We have put 30K on the present set(s). 95% at highway speeds 60 to 70 mph. 6 and 1/2 years on them.
Traveled to the West Coast, Midwest and Texas so far.
The wear patterns are the same considering there placement and weight distribution.

Now that we are able to travel more I wanted to get a baseline for them tires,so I could get a better idea on cost of rolling rubber.
I have also been much more aware of what the long haul drivers are using on there tractors. They put so many more miles on that they wear them out before they age out.

Rich

[AndyShane]

I'd love to hear from someone who switched from one to the other, on the same rig.

At the large, poorly-managed forum, there has been lots of discussion about tire wear, heat*, inflation, general safety.

For one, I've just put 7,000 miles on XZEs with good results, and a decent ride. It'd be interesting, to see the difference; with 5-year replacement** of my steering tires coming up next year, I'm tempted to try out a pair of XRVs based on this discussion.

*Rather than depending on the stem temperature sensed by the TPMS, I use a cheap IR scanner to check tires each hourly stop. My goal is to limit tire temps to 120F. Experience has shown, strict adherance to the manufacturer's tables (avoid using sidewall values or the "sticker" pressure inside the rig) will produce 120F max on the hottest days. Without exception, a higher temperature has meant that the inflation had slipped below Michelin's charted minimum.

** My personal technique only. Given the critical role of the steering tires, I want to replace them before age can possibly be a factor. Manufacturer's guidance applies for tires on the duals.

[harrysusa]

Hi Brett,
When I ask my Michelin dealer to inspect my tires, he walks around, sees very little cracking in sidewalls, then looks at the dates & sees that they are over 5 years old & recommends that I replace them. I have ignored him so far but my tires now are over 8 years old!
How is a "profesional inspection" of tires performed?
Thanks,
Harry Salit

[wolfe10]

Harry,

By any chance was his name BUBBA? I guess professional and competent professional are not necessarily the same.

Actually, I have copied another member of the FMCA Technical Advisory Committee on your question. He is retired from a career in the tire industry.

Brett

[Tireman9]

Hi Brett,
When I ask my Michelin dealer to inspect my tires, he walks around, sees very little cracking in sidewalls, then looks at the dates & sees that they are over 5 years old & recommends that I replace them. I have ignored him so far but my tires now are over 8 years old!
How is a "profesional inspection" of tires performed?
Thanks,
Harry Salit

Harry
Brett is correct. There are a lot of BUBBAS out there. If someone ever sold a tire or got paid to change a tire I guess they are entitled to call themselves "professional" but I would certainly not consider them "competent" to perform a meaningful tire inspection. Having taught hundreds of tire "professionals" and engineers in North, Central and South America I can attest that few have spent the time needed to learn much of the art involved with tire inspection. Finding a person competent to do "end of life" inspection is just as hard as finding a competent heart or brain surgeon. Just knowing how to handle a scalpel does not make you competent in all forms of surgery.

But none of this helps you. So to your question. First off sidewall cracks are seldom, in themselves, the root cause of a tire failure. Just as high blood pressure is not the “cause” of a heart attack. BUT just a high blood pressure can be a symptom that suggests hidden issues that might lead to a heart attack, the sidewall cracks are an external sign of the higher probability of internal structural issues that could be of concern.

There are two areas of concern in the tire structure and they are close to each other. At the edge of the belts in radial tires, where the most heat is generated the heat does cumulative, irreparable weakening of the rubber in that area. This loss of strength can ultimately lead to microscopic cracks which will grow with time and use. If the cracks get large enough the surrounding rubber can tear and then you may get a detachment of the tread from the belts or between the belt edges. Here is a picture from the NHTSA publication. This tire has not come apart yet but will do so if the owner had continued to drive on this tire.



The Pneumatic tire pg 627

This is a very technical 700+ pg document. Will give most non-tire engineers a headach, but I do need to provide the source for this picture.

Now there are inspection procedures using X-Ray and Holographic inspection machines but the cost of doing such an inspection would probably exceed your cost of a new tire so many time it is simply less expensive form of “insurance” to replace the old tire when the external warning signs such as cracks exceeding the size established by the manufacturer or the tire has reached the manufacturer’s recommended maximum useful life. Sometimes it is possible for a very experienced tire inspector to see signs of impending failure on the exterior or interior surface of the tire but while the presents of such indicators may suggest a high probability of impending failure, the lack of these signs is no guarantee there are no internal structural issues. Following the “better safe than sorry” philosophy means that once the tire has reached the recommended age limit and or is showing excessive levels of external cracking it is time to replace the tires. I would consider the replacement just like insurance. You don’t plan on having an accident but driving without insurance is a risk few are willing to take.

If you are not sure who to trust, then I suggest you find a tire store owned and run by the tire manufacturer and not just “Bubbas bait and tire discount store” for it is more likely that someone working for the manufacturer will have received at least a little training on in the art of tire inspection. You can always get a couple of opinions too if that will make you feel better but at 8 years the clock is ticking pretty loud. If your tires still look good the dealer might even find a buyer that tears up his tires in dump truck or trash hauler service.

[Tireman9]

Time for new tires we are going up from 235 80 22.5 XZE to 255 80 22.5 The question is XRV or XZE I think the extra side wall material in the XZE might be a plus. They are also more avilable here in Ar. Suggestions and comments

Brad
Where did you find the data indicating "extra side-wall". I see thicker rubber to protect against you running against curbs but this will also increase heat generation,
I find in the 255/80R22.5
XZE* LR-H 5510# @ 120 psi and 18/32 tread depth
XRV LR-G 5205# @ 110 psi 16/32 tread
XZE LR-G 5205# @ 110 psi 20/32

Not quite Apples to Apples with three different read depths and two different Load Range. I think if you read the sidewall you will see the actual constructions to be one ply of steel in all three tires.
Note the extra tread depth will probably lower fuel mileage.

When I read the Features and benefits info I would think you want longer sidewall life (ozone resistance) rather than heavier tread depth, unless of course you wear out your tires before they age out.

[DickandLois]

Tireman, Interesting picture in post # 12, thanks for posting it.
Would you happen to have 2 pictures,one showing the sidewall and 1 showing the cross section of the sidewall on the same tire?

Would be interesting to see what the sidewall breakdown looks like behind the outside indication.

Rich.

[harrysusa]

Thank you Tireman,
The Michelin dealer I go to has been in the tire business for 35 years, selling mostly truck tires, has a recapping plant on the premises, so I would not refer to him as "Bubba".
I asked Michelin how an inspections should be done & they said the tires have to be dismounted & inspected from the inside. I told this to the dealer & he said "I still cant see the inside of the casing".
I guess I am back to age of tires for replacement.
How do I find a Michelin dealer that is trained by the factory?
Harry Salit

[tubetweak]

Well, as a brand new-be to FMCA and RV-ing, and a commercial tire dealer for over 37 years (full time) , here is my OPINION. (Just call me Bubba)

I am commercially trained by both Michelin and Goodyear, but not a Manufacturer owned store. I am an Independent Tire Dealer. I am also very familiar with retreading having been the owner of a Bandag Retreading franchise and have kept very close relations with the major tire and rubber associations in the U.S. throughout the years.

The future of a tire depends mostly on it's history! How long to run them? I trust 5 to 6 years the way I drive on my own vehicles, but that could be very different for the next guy. The problem is that I, as a tire dealer, cannot see inside that tire casing without Holograph, NDI, NHD, (etc...) to detect the separations and small penetrations throughout the tire casing. A tire's worn and used condition is all about it's history of heat generation, penetrations, impacts and maintenance procedures. An owner of a vehicle has a better understanding of their own vehicle's tire history and maintenance than I do. About all I can do, as a tire dealer, is observe the condition on the outside and see if I can see any signs of weather checking, heat discoloration, noticeable signs of impact or penetrations, and measure the remaining tread depth in order to help educate the customer and try to make an educated recommendation based on what I have seen during the inspection.

I could go on.... but I won't. For ME ( this is only what I do but may not be what I would recommend for you since I have not inspected your tires) I will not wear my tires beyond about 1/2 tread and I will not wear my tires for more than 5 to 6 years (for longer over the road trips). I don't care if it is my car, truck or RV. Even if their condition looks great. The reason... because I like having the extra safety factor of deeper tread depth to evacuate the water from the tires at highway speeds, the extra traction during adverse winter conditions and for my own peace of mind. I don't like spending a trip worrying about things like that. When driving hot roads loaded with family and vacation gear, I am not going to take that chance. Likewise, I will do the same for belts, hoses, valve stems, batteries or anything else that can wear out or be subjected to high heat over a period of time. My tires are only about 12 months old on my motorhome and about 18 months old from the D.O.T. date (date manufactured). I keep air maintained weekly. If I still have the same Motorhome 5 years from now, based on my own experience with tire failures on my own vehicles and from what I see from time to time on most all brands of tires, I will put new tires on it. Maybe before. If I had a fleet of 100 trucks and needed to squeeze pennies in order to make a profit, I might make a different decision. But for me on a motorhome, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid a travel problem like tire separation. I am not going to take them to their extreme limits.

If you know your tire's history well and you have taken excellent care of them and you want to wear them further, that is completely up to you and the chances you are willing to take. There is no perfect answer. The Rubber Manufacturers Association cannot even make the call. Manufacturer brands disagree. We will surely not settle this question here.

[AndyShane]

...But for me on a motorhome, I'm going to do everything I can to avoid a travel problem like tire separation. I am not going to take them to their extreme limits.

If you know your tire's history well and you have taken excellent care of them and you want to wear them further, that is completely up to you and the chances you are willing to take. There is no perfect answer. The Rubber Manufacturers Association cannot even make the call. Manufacturer brands disagree. We will surely not settle this question here.

Okay, that does it for me. Thanks for the singular best post I've read among thousands. You've affirmed the course of action I'll take from here on, when it comes to tire safety.

[tubetweak]

Forgot to mention... the tires might be great for another use for the next few years. (Local/Regional/Delivery, etc...) I'm just not going to take the chance with them on my motor home after then. Plenty of local businesses could use them at a reasonable price for local delivery truck. Hello Craigslist!

[djim.ellis]

I just purchased 4 XZE tires for the drive axle and they are a vast improvement on what I had. I did not have the choice of the XRV because they are not available in 24.5" but the ride improvement and wear on the XZE's is very noticeable. I purchased my tires thru TCI tire centres with the help of FMCA's Michelin Advantage program.

Jim Ellis #380188

[Ctuna6]

Michelin rep at HQ and dealer both stated that the XRVs offer a "better" ride for motorhomes and lower heat build-up vs the XZE. If your original tire is a 235x80x22.5, the 255/80R22.5 is quite different: 235=555 revolutions per mile. 255= 538 revolutions per mile.

Just replaced my "timed out" (8 years) XRVs with same size XRVs. Man, that tread looked good, but I don't need a tire self-destruct at 65 mph !