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DickandLois

Bio Diesel Impact On All Diesel Engines

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Biodiesel impacts all diesel engines — no matter what brand and the cautions of using biodiesel.

Material compatibility

  • Through repeated exposure, biodiesel can seep through certain seals, gaskets, hoses, elastomers, glues, and plastics.
  • This is more of a problem in older engines. 2002 and older. This will affect the Bosh VP-44 and CAPS injector pumps used on the ISB and ISC series engines.
  • Now, the question is can the older style mechanical injection pumps be rebuilt in a way to decrease this affect and extend pump life?
  • Natural rubber, nitrile, and butyl rubber are particularly vulnerable to degradation.
  • Brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin, and zinc can accelerate the oxidation of biodiesel and create deposits in the engine.

Performance

  • Compared to conventional petroleum diesel fuel, B20 will result in slight reductions in power and fuel economy. Expect a 2 percent reduction in power and a 3 percent reduction in fuel economy when using B20 biodiesel. Expect up to a 12 percent reduction in power and an 18 percent reduction in fuel economy when using B100.
  • Biodiesel can accelerate the degradation of crankcase oil(results in changing oil and filters more frequently).
  • When using biodiesel fuel, the engine oil level must be checked daily.
  • In no instance should the fuel dilution of the oil be allowed to exceed 5 percent. OILSCAN™ can be used to verify fuel dilution levels.
  • Fuel should be sampled periodically to ensure a consistent percentage of biodiesel.
  • Biodiesel can reduce water separator efficiency.
  • Biodiesel can cause cold weather flow degradation.

Rich

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All of the above and bio diesel is a scam perpetrated on the diesel users of America by well connected special interests and well connected lobbyists. We can't keep dumping food into our fuel tanks. It also has no real impact on our energy needs.

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ObedB,

I do not disagree with you, but the truth is the fuel blend is now in the supply chain and the issues it can cause on the older diesel engines is real.

So members that own a coach built before 2002 need to be aware of what the blend percentages can effect concerning fuel supply system components.

The sellers try to let the customers know what is in the storage tanks, but the blend can change with each drop. They do not have any control of the blend. Just can ask for a particular blend.

Rich.

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There is no additive that I know of yet that will alter or limit the chemistry in any way to reduce the effect of the Bio on the older seals and fuel lines.

For the time being one needs to keep watch on the fixable fuel lines for leaks or just change them out.

The effect on the metals and seals inside the mechanical injector pumps will be less noticeable, but will slowly decrease performance.

Thinking the internal seals will be the first to degrade.

There are no new mechanical injector pumps being manufactured at this time that I know of and the re builders changing the seal materials will happen faster then the mechanical end in my opinion.

There is allot of older farm equipment still out there and I'm hoping that part of the market will have an impact on the need for upgrading.

Rich.

An after thought ! Don't forget about that Diesel Generator !

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Rich,

Thanks for keeping the Forum Family up dated on the very potential problem.

You mention several time that coaches made in 2002 and after are better equipped to handle Bio diesel. How does this effect coaches that were made in 2002 but may have engines that were made in 2001?

I haven't been keeping up on diesel fuel, does all diesel now contain Bio Crap, like gasoline contains up to 10% ethanol.

Keep up the great work and tell everyone in Redmond on the Parking Crew I said Howdy.

Herman

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Herman,

Real good question!!

A transition period is always fuzzy. There will be coach builders with stock on hand that will get into the coach. Just going to happen under the best of plans!! Primary issue for them is the fuel supply line(s).

The stock could include Engines still in stock from 2001, so one needs to check the engine serial number from the coach builder. With that information one can call the engine builder and check build year.

Not all refiners and there blending operations are supplying the Bio mix.

NOW, the real interesting thing is the central part of the country is supplying B20 for the most part. So there is a 900 mile wide strip in the middle of the country where one can not find pure Diesel or B5.

As much as I love to volunteer for the FMCA the possibility of the added cost to travel to events and also having to make substantial upgrades to our coach could soon prevent me from doing so. Sadly !!!

If someone wants to ask why not just replace the coach, I will be willing to discuss the mater in the General Discussion Thread !

The mid West is where most of the beans are grown that are used in the production of Bio !!! The supple is close to the blenders, low shipping cost and they will use it. The price should be way less if its a viable source. That being the case and very little difference in cost I feel

Someone is pocketing the money or the cost of producing Bio is not cost effective and is directly affecting the cost of food and causing the public to pay for the damage caused by Bio in the mixed fuel, to personal equipment.

Just feel the EPA over stepped the line on this one.

Do you feel like contracting your your government representative yet?

One can see the area affected by logging on to the Pilot / Flying J web page and take a look at the last column on the right side. It lists the Bio percentage.

Rich.

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I hope that there are some places between here and Colorado to find diesel with less bio in it. I have found better quality fuel at the high volume stops over the years however. Not using any diesel since Nov of 2011, I have not kept up with the latest news. Kinda hope Lucas or one of the other additive mfgs. comes out with something to help. My Cat was built in 2002.

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Is there an additive that will help?

There might be one, Hot on the trail of a possibility. Time and some more reading will tell.

This is where I'm at presently.

Call Cummings and they mentioned Turbo Diesel CC2588, but when I looked up the product. There is no mention of using it in conjunction with Bio fuels.

http://catalog.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT32599_08.pdf

This produce was offered by a contact I have that run's a large operation with a large inventory of diesel power equipment with large repair facilities.

The operation avoids Bio mixes, but adds it when there is no option.

This is not a product authorized by Cummings. Have not contacted Cat, but they probably do not authorize it. So if your unit is under warranty, best not to use it and void the warranty !!

http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=75

The issue is to replace the lubricity of Diesel due to the ULSD and the effect of Alcohol on the fuel system.

Will offer information as time allows, have another obligation that will require my time over the next 2 weeks.

Rich.

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ObedB

As Rich said, 2002 or newer...yours is built in 02, therefore you should be OK!

Carl

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I have run the 5% before because it was all that was available. was in Missoula Montana a couple of weeks ago and the Flying J had 4 different diesel fuels on the pump. They were pushing the 50-50 blend as that was price on the big sine. They had red dye diesel for off road diesel numbe1 and 2. I ended up paying $4.35 for straight #2 as I didn't want to run the 50-50.

Has any one run the 50-50 blend?

Bill

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UGGG, I worked for the local Utility co up until 2012 let me tell you how this broke down in the fleet of CAT, Maxxforce, Cummins, Detroit power and Ford Powerstroke diesel power (1998-2012 engine years). They bought a B20 to be more "GREEN" in the eye of the public, TV commercials the whole mess. Here was the results of the study we conducted after a storm and we had over 100 power units broken down and too many customers without electricity for much too long and it hit the fan!

Below 45 degrees fuel filters would only last up to 80 engine hours average (2640 miles) if it was below freezing in some cases we were changing them every two days.

Fuel economy was reduced by 8%.

The Cummins and Maxxforce and Detroit engines only suffered slight power loss, the CAT powered units would ping and smoke, had to be driven at full throttle, Keep in mind a Utility aerial lift truck is a 33000 GVW and was every bit of 32000 lbs.

The Cummins would fail at the injection pumps, The CAT had the HEUI injection and would wipe out fuel injectors as well as the Ford Powerstrokes. The Maxxforce, well lets just say they had so many problems we could not tell what caused it, mostly the exhaust could not get hot enough to regenerate, and frequent fuel injector failure, besides the frequent head gasket and EGR cooler failure, unrelated to BIO Diesel. I have photos in my work computer of the fuel separators looking like they were filled with butter.

After we had the tanks cleaned, and they only use B5 now, too risky and costly. This fuel never got old either, we had fuel delivered weekly to refill the tanks, so it never sat long.

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I've been using Pilot/Flying J diesel for years in my Cummins powered motorhomes. (2006 - 2012 motorhomes)

No problem to date. The only thing is I never know the percentage.

Pilot/Flying J change the percentage based on availability and time of year.

My educated guess would be 3% - 10%

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At Redmond, Cummins was saying that bio diesel is ok if B20 or less.

After 2002 model year. Before that no more than B5 because of the seals.

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I happen to also feel that Ethanol is also a huge energy mistake driven by non-logical strategic schemes with all things considered and at 10%, it's eaten away a lot of small engine seals, significantly reduces mileage, (so you can buy more gas and therefore pay more taxes) etc. So I usually will pay more and get fuel without ethanol whenever I can.

That being the case, is there information available of where one can get diesel without bio in it? Are there any companies that have pledged to not use it ? Or like Wildbill found, to at least always have a pure diesel source also available?

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If that info is available, sure would like to have it..

Thanks

Bio Diesel is in the supply chain and the point of sale can ask for diesel and still get a mix of Bio. The highest percentage of Bio tends to be in the Midwest. West of IN. to central SD and from the Canadian border to TX. You might call it the bean belt.

Many states allow for a 5% blend, but the fuel could come from a number of blending facilities.

Not the answer you wanted but the best information that I know of is on the Pilot / Flying J sight. Look at the very last column on the right side of there web sight information.

Think that the Bio percentage has been thrown at the diesel industry and they have not run tests on how more then 5% Bio effects there engine fuel delivery systems.

It is a very difficult mix to keep from gelling in cold weather and needs a biocide additive to reduce algae from forming.

Rich.

NOTE: The cleaning effect of Bio's cause the fuel filters to plug up faster. So keeping extra filters in stock is also a good idea.

The thoughts of some diesel mechanics is that the Newer High Pressure injector systems maybe at more risk then the older low pressure systems!

Time will tell, but I know who is going to pay the bill on this experiment !!!

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Thanks, for the information that I have been reading, since you started checking on the BIO. I spoke with Onan and Cummins in Redmond, got a smile and a handshake. Like the old song, I felt that I was being screwed in a nice way. They tried to tell me that BIO was good for the environment and I should have no problem with my 09 Cummins 425 or my 2010 Onan. :angry:

There was a lot of people in line at both locations (most for service) so, I got brushed aside quickly....do not have a fuzzy warm feeling! :(

Rich, please keep checking! Would also be nice to hear from Wolfe and the Diesel Club on this issue!

Carl C.

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Carl,

I go with the lowest percent Biodiesel I can find. Two reasons, first it has less BTU's per gallon so slight reduction in MPG. Second is the question mark on effect on the fuel system. I have no additional FACTS to add to that part of the discussion.

We did pull into a station in Oregon with B20 and pulled right back out.

Both Caterpillar and Cummins have published max bio content for each of their engines. Just got through doing a presentation for the Diesel RV Club and at the FMCA Redmond Convention.

This is the latest from Cummins:

• Allowable Blend
• Up to 5% (B5) for all engines
• Up to 20% (B20) for engines EPA ‘02 and later
• Additional information available: http://cumminsengine...diesel_faq.page

Caterpillar:

Biodiesel
– Use ASTM D6751 or DIN 51606 specification
• Limited storage life
• Less BTU content (5 – 7%) than regular diesel
• Allowable Blend
– Up to 30% for engines built prior to 1/1/2007
– Engines built on or after 1/1/2007:
» Up to 5% for C7 and C9
» Up to 20% for C13 and C15

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Let's see! A few years ago the manufacturers were warning not to over do the bio or the warranty might not be honored, and now everything will be ok?? Perhaps some of the newest diesel equipment have had some changes made to the build process, but I wonder. Maybe the reps you talked to at Redmond will soon be jumping into a foxhole and pulling their helmets down.

I remember the state of Minnesota getting all pumped up about bio diesel. They went with heavy concentrations of the stuff, and they couldn't keep their equipment running when winter set in. Snow plows were either setting in the yard or along the side of the road.

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