DEF Hydrometer

[jleamont]

Well here it goes with the latest in Diesel technology nightmares. Now we are experiencing DEF system issues, engine lights from DEF not being up to par. We have purchased DEF Hydrometers to test DEF as step 1 in chasing problems related to the SCR system. Apparently its becoming a problem across the industry leading to breakdowns.

Here's the instructions and there doesn't look like there is much of a margin before it becomes a problem;

The Urea content is based upon the number of discs that float.

If 0 float = Urea content is <29%; change fluid.

If 1 floats = Urea content is 30%; change fluid.

If 2 float = Urea content is 32.5%; ideal.

If 3 float = Urea content is >35%; change fluid.

Link to the tool;

http://www.acustrip.com/cgi-bin/proddesc.cgi?s=41108

 

[hermanmullins]

Joe,

This is good information for those that have engines requiring DEF. Is this a test you need to perform when, let say you open your 5 gallon jug of DEF you got from WalMart? I can see it used there, but how about the bulk DEF you get in truck stops.Can an open jug of DEF go bad? Just some question that are sure to come up.

Again thanks for the good information.

Herman

[jleamont]

If it were me I would shop for DEF like Milk at the grocery store. Buy it in a prepackaged container and look at the expiration date. If I know I will use it by then I'm good. if it expires before I will use it, look for a newer jug. As far as bulk at the pump, you would almost have to put it into a mason jar, test it, then dispense.

We were testing Brand new trucks that we have had sitting here for 3 months, the DEF was out of spec . Production date in the door was November. The water portion apparently had evaporated and its in concentrated form now.

[wildebill308]

This will be a must have for those who let their coaches set all winter. I wonder if the best practis would be to drain the DEF tank before storage.

Bill

[jleamont]

Bill, you would have to wonder on a new coach as well. How long the chassis sat before it was built on? Can you imagine if it sat for a year

[wildebill308]

Add some water and shake the chassis till mixed.

Bill

 

[manholt]

Bill, wish it was that simple.   We are the Government and we are here to help you stay Green!   The bad news, is that the EPA is going to come after pre 2007 engines eventually...

[wayne77590]

I have a 2008 and it does not have DEF, thank goodness.

[blakeloke]

18 hours ago, manholt said:

Bill, wish it was that simple.   We are the Government and we are here to help you stay Green!   The bad news, is that the EPA is going to come after pre 2007 engines eventually...

Gosh....I hope not Carl.  My Windsor & pick-em-up truck are pre-2007.

Blake

[wildebill308]

Well if they do it probbabley won't be in my lifetime. 

Bill

[manholt]

Don't bet on it...the Green Huggers are coming after anything that they don't have or need.  Who thought that a new mandate for DEF would come out 7 years after introduction?  I didn't know, Joe had no idea!  What's next?  It's in the books, 26% more reduction by 2027, they just moved it up by six years after meeting by RV and trucking Industry with the Government 2 weeks ago, who wanted it by 2021...Oh, I forgot Government and Trains are all exempt.

[jleamont]

So far everything that didn't come with new emissions technology doesn't need it they are all currently "grandfathered". 

Is that supposed to change? And if so whom pays for the retrofit? That would be an absolute disaster!! Especially since the base engine couldn't withstand the heat and neither could the chassis house all of the components.

Personally, I won't purchase one with it, not now, not later!! 

[jrock]

Ever see 6 6000 hp locomotives pulling a grade with 100+ cars talk about smoke! 

[manholt]

Joe.  Somewhere in my feeble memory, back around 2006, when I got my Chevy P/U with the Duramax, I was told that all diesel engines had to be EPA complaint by 2024 with the exception of trains, military and Government vehicles....strange that I should hear the same at 9am today!  Also, the new DEF compliant from you in this Post.  Now who do you think pay's?  Not the EPA. Government.  That leaves the Industry, then the Consumer !

[jleamont]

Carl, I had heard that back around then also. Haven't heard much since. The only thing I heard is the government is cracking down on Glider kits (new chassis complete without powertrain) then the end user installs old power under the hood to get around the laws. This was and is a loop hole they are working on closing. Back in the mid 2000's there were companies that made Diesel Particulate Filter retro kits. They bombed the testing and disappeared. 

All else is quiet....so far. Let's hope it stays that way. 

[marktaylorjets]

DEF will go bad over time.  The deionized water will absorb contaminants from the atmosphere based on temp, humidity and density altitude. 

Apparently, urea is not just urea.  The cheap stuff uses cheap components (duh!).  As in, don't buy the cheap stuff from the big box discount chains (you know who).  Cummins uses only Valvoline DEF.  They sell it in 2, 2.5 gal. cases for about $14.  Once you crack the jug, the timer starts ticking.  Truck stops probably go through the stuff at a fairly high rate, so it doesn't have time to go bad.  For us casual users, best to buy the best quality DEF you can find.  Also, as stated earlier, the water can evaporate and increase the ratio of Urea to deionized water, which is also bad. 

So, there are several ways for this to go south on you.  The cost to drain and clean the system is a lot more expensive than buying good quality DEF.  As far as long term storage,  I have no experience with that, I don't even know how to drain the tank....

[manholt]

When I had my Allegro Bus, it used DEF and had a 13 gallon tank that could only hold 11 1/2 gallons, my best friend, a retired Chemical Engineer, advised me to put no more than 5 gallons in at a time...all that meant was an added 2.5 gallon "Cummins" jug about every 1,200 miles.  Never had a problem!

Carl

[wildebill308]

Now if you could only get it to use diesel at that rate.

Bill

[hermanmullins]

Bill,

That is the same size jug Carl buys his wine in.  But I am willing to bet he wont get the same mileage from it.

 

Herman 

[manholt]

Herman, you lost the bet.   I get a month out of 3 liters of wine!  I still have 2 liters left over from my last 4,000+ mile trip to Chandler...

Bill, that would be nice!  But I don't have a DEF engine anymore.

Carl

[jleamont]

I wonder if people calculate the DEF into their fuel equation i.e. MPG. DEF drives your fuel cost per mile up...UP...UP

 

[manholt]

Joe. It does, but it's very little, like about .005 

[wildebill308]

Carl, you are going to get hate mail from the winemakers because you arn't doing your part . You need more consumption.

The upside of DEF is the people I have talked to are geting better mileage from the engines turned to use DEF.

Bill

 

[manholt]

That could very well be on the last 4 or 5 year models.  Mine was a 2011 coach with a 2010 engine, 450 Cummins on a 36 foot Powerglide chassis = 7.5 to 7.8 mpg..  Cummins felt I was lucky to get that !  They also said that the DEF robbed me of about 50HP.  I looked that up and sure enough it was in  writing, 10-12 % loss in HP !

[wolfe10]

Comparing the same engine pre-DEF with those using DEF, most are UP in HP and MPG, as the engine can be tuned for HP and economy and the "dirtier" emission produced by the retuned engine can be cleaned up downstream.  Would love a link to different information.

Same as what happened between 1974 and 1975 with gas engines from the "pre-catalytic converter" to "catalytic converter" engines. The 1975's had more power and better MPG than the 1974 engines.