Which coolant to use?

[TimWright]

Recently had my coolant system flushed and hoses changed in my 2002 Monaco Diplomat. Now, I need to add some coolant and my owner's manual states I need to use an SCA concentration of 1.5ppm. I cannot find coolant with SCA in it, only OAT or other stuff that says SCA is not needed and warns to not add it or it will cause a problem (gel?).

So, I called the shop that did the work and they cannot tell me if they put in coolant with SCA or OAT or what. They say they get it in 250 gal containers from Safety-Kleen and it has no label on it, so they have no idea.

My fluid is green, or greenish yellow or is it yellowish green? The shop said "green is green, just add some green fluid." That sounds like bad advice and it goes without saying I am done with this shop (a busy, well reputed diesel chassis shop.)

So, what to do? How can I figure out if I have  to continue to try to find coolant with SCA (any ideas where to get it?), or if I should use the OAT or some other coolants?

Easy solution if the shop could tell me what they put in there, but other than saying it was from Safety-Kleen, they have no idea.

Thanks for any and all help.

[wolfe10]

No question, you need to find out (even if it is from Safety-kleen) exactly what type of coolant you have.  Color is not a fool-proof determinant of coolant chemistry.

The dealership has to have a Safety-kleen part number for that drum of coolant. And an answer that they don't know what kind of coolant they installed is really scary (either lack of knowledge or lack of caring!).

[richard5933]

If you have a diesel, then it's even more important to maintain the proper chemistry levels. There are some 'universal' coolants for diesel engines, but I never trust anything that says it's universal to work well in all situations.

There are test strips you can get to check your coolant yourself.

The SCA stands for 'supplemental coolant additive'. In many diesel engines (especially in commercial service) they don't actually change the coolant as much as they filter it, check the SCA levels, and then put it back in. That's why your manual states a minimum SCA level - they expect it to be checked and adjusted as needed. If you are adding coolant specifically designated for diesel engines, especially if it meets the minimum requirements for your engine manufacturer, it should come from the jug with enough SCA already in it. If not, you can buy the SCA to adjust yourself.

Hopefully if you have a diesel they didn't use coolant designated for a gasoline engine. The chemistry in the two types of coolant are not the same, and the ingredients in gasoline engine coolant can really cause some damage to diesel engines.

The shop is required to keep data safety sheets for every chemical, coolant, etc. used in the shop. If the tech doing the work didn't know which coolant it was, I'd keep pushing up and up until I found someone that could tell me. If they can't tell you which coolant was used, I'd insist they do the job over again after they get some coolant certified to be compatible with your engine.

 

[sstgermain]

Sounds like they put regular automotive coolant in it. I have had several DP and never had one with green coolant. Either redish, orangish or purple.

 

[richard5933]

Here's a link to an article that explains some of the issues involved with coolant on a diesel engine:

http://www.motorhome.com/tech/diy/what-you-need-to-know-about-diesel-antifreeze-and-coolants/

[jleamont]

The fact that its green is interesting as Safety Kleen doesn't make a "green" colored coolant. Yellow or Red are the only options. 

https://www.safety-kleen.com/products-services/products/antifreeze-and-windshield-washer-fluid/antifreeze

Any idea what color was in it before you took it over? I have to agree with the comment above Sounds like they put regular automotive coolant in it. I haven't stumbled upon any coolant for Diesel Truck application that was colored green, not in 17+ years. I have heard of shop's putting automotive coolant in Diesel engines (particularly smaller ones) and adding SCA additives.

Get yourself a coolant test kit in strips, dip and see if it has adequate Diesel SCA protection (#1 concern). That will tell you right away if its adequate, then you will still need to know whats in it, maybe take a sample and send it out to a lab, they cn usually tell you what it is.

Lab example;

http://www.titanlab.com/why-titan-labs/

 

[richard5933]

There are components of automotive coolant which will damage some diesel engines. Silicates. No amount of additives will fix this. If the wrong coolant has been put in by the shop, take it back and have them do it properly.

[wildebill308]

3 hours ago, sstgermain said:

Sounds like they put regular automotive coolant in it. I have had several DP and never had one with green coolant. Either redish, orangish or purple.

 

The biggest problem is if they put the wrong coolant in with no SCA additives you can and will damage your engine if you drive it much with that coolant in it. Hopefully you can make them re do it with the right coolant or take it to someone who can do the job correctly.

I wouldn't be to worried about the silica short term but no SCA's is the big problem. I would consider converting over to ELC coolant. That way you don't have to monitor SCA levels.

Keep us informed on how it goes.

Bill

 

[five]

I just went through this process with my DD 13.  The bottom line is if you have an Extended Life Coolant (ELC), testing is not required.  If you have standard Ethylene Glycol (for heavy duty diesel engines) testing is required using the SCA test strips.  I had a hard time finding strips, so I ordered some from Acustrip, (973) 299-8237, www.acustrip.com  The directions for actually doing the testing are good.  However, they don't tell you what the test results mean, so I called the number above and a tech explained what I needed to do based on the test results.  The test involves matching three colors on the test strip (dipped in the coolant) to a color coded card.  If you are color blind, you can't do this.  As most know, the chassis builder puts in the engine coolant.  For some reason Freightliner uses standard Ethylene Glycol rather than ELC....Spartan uses ELC.  So it is important you read the Freightliner manual and not your engine manual.

If it wasn't such a PITA, I'd change over to ELC.

[TimWright]

Thanks all for your replies. At this point, I still do not know what they put in there or how to figure it out.

I do not think they put the "wrong" coolant in (ie; standard car antifreeze), because it is a diesel only shop. The real question is if they put in the stuff with SCA or if they used the newer ELC or OAT products. They dont seem to know and since you cannot mix SCA with the non-SCA products, therein lies the dilemma.

If someone can tell me how to figure that out, then I know what to buy from here on.

Short of that, it seems the only way to be sure is to have the system flushed and then make sure I know what it is filled with.

As for green/yellow...maybe it is yellow, looks what I call green though, but my girlfriend and I debate about the color of golf balls being green vs yellow.

I have a call out to Safety-Kleen and waiting for them to call me back. According to their website, they sell OAT. If I can get confirmation that is what they sold this shop, then I think I am safe to go with that.

As for having this shop do the work again, I understand that from a moral outrage perspective, or making them responsible for their actions, but considering the guy on the phone (one of the owners, btw) couldn't be bothered to look up the MSDS sheets which we all know they have to have, and seemed ignorant of what they use, and that they will say they didnt do anything wrong (and I cannot prove they did, in fact, I dont think they did, they just can't/wont tell me what they put in my radiator), they will charge me to do it. After my interaction with them today, I am not going to back there at all. I would rather pay someone that I trust than force them to "make it right." And, short of watching them do it, how would I know if they did? And, realistically, if they did screw it up, do I really want them working on my coach?

[manholt]

TW.

If in doubt, and it still seem to bother you, take the coach to a Cummins shop and have a dump & flush done!  If you don't want to do a D&F, then at least they can tell you what you have in there now. 

[jleamont]

Tim, I understand your position. I would take it to a Cummins dealer (As recommended above) and have it redone. Antifreeze is so critical in an engine its just not worth the risk. Where are you located?

[TimWright]

Yes, having someone else do a flush and fill seems the only way to be certain and safe and would seem to be cheap insurance.

I am in Glendale, AZ 85308

Ironically, when I do a Google search for "Cummins diesel service near me" of the several names that pop up, guess who is listed there? The shop that did the original work!

[obedb]

Am I missing something amongst all of  the replies? SCAs are only needed in engines that are typically used in commercial service and designed for quick inframe overhauls. Complete overhaul kits contain cylinder liners kits and many other parts. The old worn liners are removed and the new ones are installed sometimes with some necessary machining of the bore before installing the new kits. I have seen a Cummins engine inframed in two working shifts with a second mechanic helping. In other words, from 7AM to 11PM and the big rig is ready to go for many more miles. If the cooling system is properly flushed during the procedure, then Extended Life Coolant can be installed and the worry about SCA testing is not necessary. If non ELC coolant is used, then an SCA additive must be added and periodically tested with test strips. The strips have a relatively short life in terms of how long the engine can last after the inframe. The reason engines that are built for quick inframes requirng SCAs is another interesting discussion.

Most diesels,  but not  all ,that are typically used in pushers are solid blocks needing no SCAs to extend the life of the non existing liner kits. The bigger DPs using high horse power commercial style engines do need extended life coolant or supplemental coolant additives with the properly installed antifreeze. Extended Life Coolant should only be installed after a thorough flush is done following the directions for cleansing the engine of standard  coolant.

[TimWright]

obedb, very informative.

I have a Cummins ISC in my 2002 Monaco Diplomat, and the owners manual specifically states that it requires the use of coolant with an SCA concentration of 1.5ppm.

I recently had the cooling system (among others) serviced by what was allegedly a reputable diesel shop. I noted the coolant was low a couple of weeks ago and went on a search for coolant with SCA and could not find it, even at truck stops. So, I called the shop to find out where I could buy it or if they had used one of the "newer" non-SCA but diesel appropriate fluids. They could not tell me what they used, (which leads me to question their skills), and since SCA and non-SCA fluids cannot be mixed, I started this thread to try to get some assistance in figuring out what the shop may have used and/or where to get SCA containing fluid.

I was kind of hoping to find out that SCA coolant was no longer manufactured, which would therefore mean the shop used one of the newer diesel coolants which is available at my corner auto parts store. But, it turns out, it is still available, and, understandably, there is no way anyone can tell me with certainty what coolant I have in my system. Color is not a guarantee. Nor, is testing for SCA because if the level is low, that doesn't mean it isn't an SCA fluid.

So, at this point I have made an appointment with a different shop to flush and fill my system. It was more expensive than I thought it would be, but still a fraction of repairing my engine if the wrong fluid is in there. And, guess what? The new shop says they use the SCA fluid and will give me a couple of gallons to take with me.

As for holding the first shop accountable, arguing with them is pointless, there is no way I will let them put a wrench on my rig again, the amount of money is not worth hiring an attorney. So, I will tell everyone I know to avoid them. It is the age old business maxim, "If you do everything right, the customer might tell someone about you. If you do it wrong, they will tell 10 people."

Thanks all...but if anyone comes up with a flash of brilliance to save me the cost of a flush and fill, I am still open to suggestions.

[jleamont]

9 hours ago, obedb said:

Most diesels,  but not  all ,that are typically used in pushers are solid blocks needing no SCAs to extend the life of the non existing liner kits

Not quite, I have seen many International sold blocks and 7.2L CATS with a cavatation problem from no SCA's. CAT's less often until the 07 emissions engine came out. Very problematic on older International diesels, especially their V8's.

To your point I have never heard of a solid block (Cummins 5.9 or 6.7L) with this problem. To add and maintain SCA's on an engine is cheap and simple, not to can be expensive and foolish, said another way "cheap insurance".

[obedb]

Checked a few forums on Diesel engines and I found a few references to cavitation on Ford's V8 diesels. Have not heard about Duramax Diesels(GM) with a problem. Joe indicates the some 3126 cats have a problem with cavitation in newer years. Those are parent bore engnines (I call them solid block but I am uncouth😎). Cavitation occurs on the wet side. Must have been a flaw in engineering. CAT was in their death throes for surface transportation near that time.

If you own a parent bore engine, you should probably call the manufacturer with the engine number at hand. Ask the representative their reccomendation. As Joe pointed out, the additive is cheap insurance, but once you get started on that maintenance program, testing is necessary for it to be effective. Testing Strips and bottles of additive have to be in "your tool box."

In my case, I wound up with CAT extended life coolant because I gave a local shop the go ahead to fix things up to a point without a phone call. Previous owner had kept no maintenance records.

Joe is a well respected fleet manager for an area trucking company. He deserves everyone's respect.

[five]

The last time I talked to Freightliner, they are putting standard ethylene glycol in all their RV engines.  That means we need to use the SCA test strips and add SCA if required by the test.  If they used Extended Life Coolant (ELC) there would be no tests required.

[deano511]

Hi All, I am making the switch to OAT coolant today on my 2001 Monaco Diplomat with the Cummins 8.3 ISC. After hours of research, I decided that to be the best choice, I will also change the gen to OAT as well. I will use the procedure outlined by @wolfe10 https://community.fmca.com/topic/3468-coolant-flushing-for-cummins-isc-83-that-requires-sca-coolant/?do=findComment&comment=18430. Also changing the hoses along the way. For those interested in my research here are a few links. 

http://www.rvtechmag.com/tech/27_coolants.php

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/MB10468.pdf

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/pdf_archive/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/SB_TB03-05-2.pdf

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/china/sites/cumminsfiltration.com.china/files/LT32599_07.pdf decided to go with the FG WF2077 or WIX 24070

 

[manholt]

Deano511.  Welcome!

What ever works for you and your year engine!

[wolfe10]

Ya, the new OAT-based/long life coolants are the way to go.  6 years, put it in and forget about it! Think of it as the maintenance-free diesel coolant.

The old-generation "Low silicate for diesel with added SCA" coolant has to be tested and SCA added every year.

[rayin]

TimWright,  return to that shop and ask to read and receive a copy of the SDS=Safety Data Sheet. It will tell everything about that coolant. By federal law they must maintain an SDS for every chemical on their premises; if they say they do not have one, tell them you'll be calling  OSHA to register a complaint.