New Engine oil formulation question

[dickandlois]

The question I have for those much better to reply to them I'm.

Wear protection beyond CK-4 standards

In API industry wear tests, Shell ROTELLA^® T4 Triple Protection 15W-40 didn’t just meet CK-4 specifications; it delivered an average 50 percent more wear protection than required. It also provided strong wear protection in CK-4 engine tests including the Cummins ISM and ISB. That’s protection where it matters most - on the road. OK

                 New Shell ROTELLA^® T4 15W-40 Triple Protection and Shell ... with lower viscosity oils, so backwards compatibility is limited. Hum  ?

                CK-4 oils will replace current CJ-4 oils and will be completely backwards compatible with all current engines. They will be designed with improved oxidation resistance, shear stability and aeration control. FA-4 oils include lower viscosity grades designed for next-generation diesel engines to help maximize fuel economy without sacrificing engine protection. Some older engines were not designed to operate with lower viscosity oils, so backwards compatibility is limited. So what year engines are considered older?

     Rich.

http://rotella.shell.com/media/2016/new-shell-rotella-engine-oils-offer-improved-technology.html

[wildebill308]

The only thing I could think that might be a problem would be in some of the Cat engines where they use the engine oil to drive the injector pumps. Maybe Joe will have something or mister Cat, Brett.

I run T6 5-40 and don't have any problems.

Bill

[manholt]

Rich.

It's not new, it was writhen up in 2015 and press released in 2016.  What I would like to see first, is a list off effected engines (size and year).  Second, is will this replace or be manufactured along with T-6?

[kaypsmith]

Our old two stroke Detroits still need to use standard weight, 30 or 40. I was told by a modern day mechanic that 15/40 would work just fine, so I moved to 15/40 on the next oil change, what a mistake, oil leaks were so bad that I was adding a gallon every 500 miles, the spots became puddles, so I went back to straight 30 in winter 40 in summer. I was not allowed to hang a picture of the bus on the wall while using multi viscosity, DW was mopping the floor too often.

[wildebill308]

Where was it leaking?

Bill

[wolfe10]

Yes, the new API designation CK-4 is backwards compatible with all brands of 4 stroke diesel engines.

And still believe Delo 100 40 wt is recommended oil for the 2 stroke DD's.

And, I would strictly adhere to the viscosity recommendations for YOUR engine.  I follow this on both gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.

[dickandlois]

        A little more digging in to my own question and found this White Paper information that helps clear things up. From the information offered it appears that older engines are considered to be 2017 model years and older, with the 2018 series of engines being considered new and designed to run on the new synthetic blends and total synthetic based lubricating chemistry.

The part that was totally confusing for me was the CK-4 designation as it relates to the T-4 designation transition. The link below offers charts and explanations.

Like Brett mentioned - you need to follow the the engine information for your particular engine(s)   

https://alliedoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Shell-Rotella-CK4_FA4-White-Paper1.pdf

Rich.

[kaypsmith]

11 hours ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

Where was it leaking?

On the floor below the picture! Seriously, air box cover.

[jleamont]

I was at a commercial vehicle oil seminar last year and the Rotella came into question as it only ever and just (barely) crossed the line to be a CJ-4 compliant oil.

I use the Rotella T-5 15w40 synthetic blended oil, which has been good on my oil analysis reports with no issues, never used the T-4. Prior I ran Mobile Delvac 15w40 as I had it in bulk with the business.

Kay, when I read your post that was my first thought...Bet it leaked like a lawn sprinkler those engines were notorious for oil leaks, it's just the way they were. When I was younger i worked summers for a construction company in the shop, they had a bunch of the 8V71's and 8V92's and one 12V92. Learned to drive on that old Autocar, with the 12v92, wow was that thing a beast! 

I still remember the lead mechanic telling me "if its not leaking it must be out of oil". We used Drydene straight 30 in all of them.  

[wildebill308]

More on the Shell oil.

http://rotella.shell.com/products/full-synthetic-and-blend-oil/t6-full-synthetic/_jcr_content/productDetails.stream/1506811860834/b1efec99b9e83f216e38df79c5353f4c43d17a2677da8dd08400c13d51318343/t6-5w-40.pdf

As Brett said, "And, I would strictly adhere to the viscosity recommendations for YOUR engine.  I follow this on both gasoline and diesel powered vehicles."

Brett, Here is the latest approved oil list from Cummins. So apparently I am using a approved oil.

http://lubritecinc.com/PDF/CES 20086(2).pdf

Bill

 

[wolfe10]

Bill,

Wow, that PDF shows a very wide viscosity range: from 5 -30 on the low end  to 15-40 on the high end. Wonder about temperature discussions to go along with those varied ranges.

Or what year model or engines particular recommendations apply to, though I suspect ambient temperature is more a determinant.

[wildebill308]

Yes some of the lower weight oils are for specific applications, oils like the 5-40 T6 are for general use. Shell makes a T6 0-40 for cold applications. 

One outher thing I see is a change in Cummins attitude about extending oil change intervals using oil analysis/testing. They have a program in place on new X15 engins using CK oil that extend oil changes to 85,000 miles. But that is for over the road applications.

Bill

[manholt]

That seems to be the problem with Cummins and any of their suggested applications...it's pretty much based on Commercial/OTR applications!  We are left to flounder and over time, learn what works best for a recreation only application. 

How often do I change oil & filter?  Once a year, regardless of mileage ( 10k-14k )!  Rotella T-6, has been the choice on the last 2 DP's.  The 2006 Cummins400, I ran whatever Cummins put in bulk. They told me it was "Cummins Oil".. I will not repeat, what I told the Service Manager, in Ocala, FL.  

[jleamont]

Bill and Brett, we run this (link below) in ALL Diesel engines at work including Cummins ISB-ISX, Mack E7, (1998-2003) Volvo D11 and D13, Detroit DD13, no issues. I will say up here winters are much colder then TX, might be why its a good fit up here and probably not such a good fit in TX. Oil change interval in everything 10.0 liter and up is 35,000 miles, 9.0 liter and down is 20,000 miles, unless a bad oil analysis come along, then we sample at the 1/2 point.

9.0 and down we dump at 400,000 miles, that's about as far in a commercial application they will go. 10.0 liters and up go to 850,000 non emissions we push over a million miles, emissions engine will bleed your wallet above 650,000 miles. 

Oil analysis also through the oil OEM always looks good on everything but the Detroit products, those are questionable to me but our Detroit rep says they are within specs. I look over every oil analysis for the fleet of 1500 units. I run the 15w40 version of the product, considered the 5w40 full synthetic but our coach doesn't get run in the winter.

http://rotella.shell.com/products/full-synthetic-and-blend-oil/shell-rotella-t5-ultra-10w-30-synthetic-blend-fa-4-heavy-duty/_jcr_content/par/textimage.stream/1526113968147/7e0d3b1874601afdb1684e8dba1cafa080f9d9b31cde8ded992e8c1c92564660/ro-t5-ulta-ir.pdf

 

 

[wildebill308]

Carl, it was probably Valvoline. That is the main brand that they recommend because they sell it.

Joe I run T6 not because of the cold as I try to stay out of running in the real cold weather. I want the maximum protection when it is hot. Especially for protecting the turbo. 

Bill

 

[jleamont]

48 minutes ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

Joe I run T6 not because of the cold as I try to stay out of running in the real cold weather. I want the maximum protection when it is hot. Especially for protecting the turbo. 

Bill

Got ya, makes sense!

[dickandlois]

The new oil formulations are not all backwards compatible and the engine protection will be compromised.

The new engines are designed with tighter tolerances and for the 0 to 5 weight cold are needed to get the oil pressure up ASAP because tighter tolerances leave less space for a thicker layer of oil to keep the main and rod bearings from being damaged.

Lost the bearings in one of the classic cars, they spun around, damaging the crank shaft and bearing. That was a new one for me. Oil changes on a regular bases are your friend. The engine shop found that this was caused by the WRONG oil formulation. Apparently at some point the lithium / zine based mixed got changed. So I now buy special oil that meats the engine requirements. Not an inexpensive lesson. The old vehicles do set longer now and then between start ups and I'm concerned that the old diesel engines could suffer the same problem with an oil mixture that is blended for newer engines and NOT backwards compatible.

Rich.  

[richard5933]

Echoing what has been hinted at and said before by Rich and others, it is vital that every coach owner read and understand the manufacturer's recommendations regarding oil. While many newer formulations might state that they are backwards compatible, it isn't 100% and should not be relied on. Like has been said, a 2-stroke diesel is just one example, and anyone putting the newer oil formulations in an older engine needs to do his/her homework first.

[wildebill308]

9 hours ago, DickandLois said:

The new oil formulations are not all backwards compatible and the engine protection will be compromised.

The new engines are designed with tighter tolerances and for the 0 to 5 weight cold are needed to get the oil pressure up ASAP because tighter tolerances leave less space for a thicker layer of oil to keep the main and rod bearings from being damaged.

Lost the bearings in one of the classic cars, they spun around, damaging the crank shaft and bearing. That was a new one for me. Oil changes on a regular bases are your friend. The engine shop found that this was caused by the WRONG oil formulation. Apparently at some point the lithium / zine based mixed got changed. So I now buy special oil that meats the engine requirements. Not an inexpensive lesson. The old vehicles do set longer now and then between start ups and I'm concerned that the old diesel engines could suffer the same problem with an oil mixture that is blended for newer engines and NOT backwards compatible.

Rich.  

Yes it is like running additives to make up for the lack of lead in gas for older hi compression engins. You can add aditives to your oil such as this one from Red Line.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/red-line-engine-oil-break-in-additive?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&tw=OIL BREAK&sw=Red Line Engine Oil Break-In Additive

You might find this interesting.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2012/10/18/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/

Your friendly government took most of the zinc and phosphorus out of the oil quite a while back now. 

Hi we are from the government and we are here to help you.

Bill

[TimeTraveler]

 

We have been using Delo with zinc still in the oil in our Cat.

I understood for along time the real or true synthetics  made from esters are very much more wear protective. They really are slicker than snail snot. The first ads featured someone trying to hold a screwdriver dipped in the real synthetic oil. My Plymouth leaked like a sieve when I first used it. Had to replace valve cover gaskets and others it is so thin.

However....what most label as synthetic these days is not synthetic.... It is more highly refined dino oil...after Castrol Sued Mobil and won.

Without the zinc my older engine and even car engines with flat tappets wore badly without the zinc.

If someone would define the wear factor vs zinc additive favorable in their oil I will go with a real synthetic.

Some Mobile One oils now such as their Euro spec are back again to real synthetics from Esters. but you have to raa labels carefully or be informed by someone that knows.

Another factor is how much soot will the oil carry, in our diesels and will new spec filters remove it from the new spec oils? I would think the real synthetics could use a much smaller micron filter.

[five]

On 5/22/2018 at 9:34 AM, jleamont said:

...I still remember the lead mechanic telling me "if its not leaking it must be out of oil"...

I flew a helicopter in VN that was like that with transmission fluid, the one thing you don't want to run dry in a helicopter is transmission fluid.  We carried a case with us at all times.

 

[wolfe10]

On 5/22/2018 at 9:34 AM, jleamont said:

I still remember the lead mechanic telling me "if its not leaking it must be out of oil". We used Drydene straight 30 in all of them.  

My understanding is that the later generation 2 strokes (the Silver Series) actually kept their oil INSIDE.

Quite a few late 1980's -1994 Foretravels with 6V92's.  And, boy do they RUN-- 36', no slide, semi-monocoque chassis with 350 HP DD.

[wildebill308]

6 hours ago, timetraveler said:

We have been using Delo with zinc still in the oil in our Cat

Most oils have Zinc it is the question of how much is in the oil. What does your oil analisis say?

6 hours ago, timetraveler said:

However....what most label as synthetic these days is not synthetic.... It is more highly refined dino oil...after Castrol Sued Mobil and won.

That is true, however it was the outer way around. Mobile didn't like people calling their oil  synthetic when it wasn't, but they lost. 

 

6 hours ago, timetraveler said:

If someone would define the wear factor vs zinc additive favorable in their oil I will go with a real synthetic.

Not shure what you are saying /asking?  Zinc is just one of the  components in the additive package. Below is a excerpt from the link I posted earlier to a Shell website. It would appear the new T6 reduced wear by 50%.

Improved Wear Performance Shell ROTELLA® T6 5W-40 full synthetic (CK-4) provides excellent protection against harmful engine wear. In 30 API CK-4 and OEM wear test parameters and 10 separate passing engine tests, the average result for Shell ROTELLA® T6 5W-40 was 50% of the respective limit.

Now if you want a true full synthetic you can run a Mobile 1 oil.

https://www.mobil.com/en/mobil-delvac/products/engine-oils/mobil-delvac-1/mobil-delvac-1-esp

I am geting excellent reports from my oil lab running T6. The difference now is not as great as it was between the base stocks. 

Bill

[wolfe10]

While I find this discussion of good academic value, RV's are probably the LEAST affected by oil-related wear issues. 

RV's tend to do the least number of miles for the engines we run. 

Looking back, hard to recall any reported oil-related failures being reported.

So, while I am a strong believer in synthetic oils for my other vehicles, I feel an annual oil change with an oil that meets the API and viscosity recommendations of for my engine will forever keep my engine happy.

[fagnaml]

Let the "refining guy" jump in with a response.  First all "current generation" engine oils meet requirements of previous generations but with improved additive packages.  As a means to meet ever increasing EPA CAF (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards, vehicle and truck manufactures are increasing performance requirements of engine oils i.e. improved lubrication means less power loss to engine friction which increases fuel economy.  Engine oil manufactures are continually evolving engine oil formulations to meet vehicle manufacturer demands.

Specific to Shell, they, like all engine oil manufactures provide three grades of heavy duty engine oils to meet vehicle manufacturers demands:

• T-4 15W-40 which is made from conventional base oil (i.e. derived from crude oil) for large diesel engines
• T-5 10W-30 which is a conventional / synthetic base oil blend -- developed for smaller diesel engines
• T-6 5W-40 which is a full synthetic -- developed to achieve slightly better fuel economy for large diesel engines

All three Shell HD engine oils will meet the current API CK-4 specifications for lubrication, corrosion, etc. protection but that's we're the similarity ends.  The "lower" the W number (i.e. cold weather performance) the "thinner" (i.e. lower viscosity) base oil that is used.   By setting a lower "cold temperature" viscosity requirement, an engine manufacturer can achieve small fuel economy increases as a lower viscosity oil takes less energy to move around when the engine is cold.  After the engine gets to operating temperature (i.e. the "40" spec), there is no difference in fuel economy as a result of the engine oil.

A "5W" engine oil should not be used in an engine that specifies an "15W" oil as the engine manufacturer is expecting a specific oil viscosity/performance when the engine is first started at an ambient temperature of -5 F or warmer (which is the temperature used to establish 15W oil performance specs).  "5W" oil is designed for cold weather temps from -5 F to - 30 F.   I would not use 5W-40 oil in Texas especially when Cummins specifies 15W-40 oil for my 2007 ISB engine.

The "30 and 40" numbers represent the oil viscosity requirements when the engine is at normal operating temperature.   To achieve the high temp viscosity requirement, a viscosity improver additive is added to the base oil used in the formulation.    The wider the spread between the W number and the higher number, the more additive required and the less the natural lubrication from the base oil.

All engine oils "break down" over time due to heat from the engine (the large paraffinic molecules which provide the lubrication "crack" into smaller molecules).   Conventional oil contains less paraffinic molecules than synthetic oils and thus breaks-down and loses viscosity rather quickly (hence the 3,000 mile oil change frequency for cars using convention oil).  Synthetic oils are 100% paraffinic meaning their are more paraffins to "crack" over time.  The time for synthetic oils to break-down is much longer than convention oils which is why oil change frequency can be extended to 10,000 miles for the highest quality synthetic oils.

The huge "caveat" in oil change frequency is the amount of engine exhaust and its corrosive acids (sulfonic, sulfuric, carbonic, nitric) that enter the engine oil.  These acids form from the products in engine exhaust -- water, carbon dioxide, sulfur oxides, nitric oxides.  Carbon particulates are also in engine exhaust (especially diesel engine exhaust) as a result of incomplete combustion.   All engine oils have anti-corrosion additives to protect engine parts from these acids and water.   Engine oil also has additives to help carbon particulates 'filter out' better in oil filters.   The amount of additives used presumes the amount of exhaust entering the oil is no more than what engine manufacturers specify.  Over time piston rings and exhaust valves wear resulting in ever increasing amounts of exhaust gas entering the engine oil.  As such, I would never let the oil change frequency extend beyond the time specified by the engine manufacturer.   Personally, I change engine oil a bit more frequently than required.

Also, the "volume" of oil used in an engine affects oil quality / changing frequency which is why small engine oil volume has increased from four quarts to five or six quarts.   Large diesel engines will require 4 gallons or more to have plenty of capability to absorb engine exhaust products.   Yes part of assuring good engine oil performance is 'solution by dilution'.

Bottom line, if Cummins says use 15W-40 oil and change it at least once per year or every 15,000 miles (which ever come first), then do so to assure no engine lubrication problems.