New Engine oil formulation question

[wildebill308]

6 hours ago, fagnaml said:

Let the "refining guy" jump in with a response.  First all "current generation" engine oils meet requirements of previous generations but with improved additive packages.  As a means to meet ever increasing EPA CAF (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards, vehicle and truck manufactures are increasing performance requirements of engine oils i.e. improved lubrication means less power loss to engine friction which increases fuel economy.  Engine oil manufactures are continually evolving engine oil formulations to meet vehicle manufacturer demands.

The conventional oil of today is as good as some of the early synthetic oil. 

 

6 hours ago, fagnaml said:

Conventional oil contains less paraffinic molecules than synthetic oils and thus breaks-down and loses viscosity rather quickly (hence the 3,000 mile oil change frequency for cars using convention oil). 

The 3000 mile oil change went out the window years ago. 5000, 7500 and 10,000 miles are more the norm now. Jiffy lube and places like that are in the business of selling oil and still promote the 3000 mile change.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tips-advice/stop-changing-your-oil.html

6 hours ago, fagnaml said:

Large diesel engines will require 4 gallons or more to have plenty of capability to absorb engine exhaust products.   Yes part of assuring good engine oil performance is 'solution by dilution'.

Yes but a oil analysis will tell you how a particular oil is doing in dealing with soot contamination + it will tell you how much of the TBN you have used/left in the oil. Did you know Cummins has had a change of hart about doing oil analisis to extend oil changes? They are working on a program to extend X15 engine oil changes to 80,000 miles.

 

6 hours ago, fagnaml said:

A "5W" engine oil should not be used in an engine that specifies an "15W" oil as the engine manufacturer is expecting a specific oil viscosity/performance when the engine is first started at an ambient temperature of -5 F or warmer (which is the temperature used to establish 15W oil performance specs).  "5W" oil is designed for cold weather temps from -5 F to - 30 F.   I would not use 5W-40 oil in Texas especially when Cummins specifies 15W-40 oil for my 2007 ISB engine.

Ok what part of meets or exceeds is hard? If you are right how did the T6 score so well in the weare test? I will repost the link.

http://rotella.shell.com/products/full-synthetic-and-blend-oil/t6-full-synthetic/_jcr_content/productDetails.stream/1506811860834/b1efec99b9e83f216e38df79c5353f4c43d17a2677da8dd08400c13d51318343/t6-5w-40.pdf

The 5W flowers faster to all areas of the engine on startup espechiley to critical areas like the turbo. 

What were the results of your last oil sample what was the soot %? How did the wearmetals look? 

 

[richard5933]

11 hours ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

The 5W flowers faster to all areas of the engine on startup espechiley to critical areas like the turbo. 

This test was done at -34 C. Of course 5w will reach areas of the engine faster at those temps. However, if my engine manufacturer (the people I'm hoping will stand behind their warranty) specifies 15w, then that's what I'd use.

[rsbilledwards]

Very interesting guys  Thanks

[wildebill308]

2 hours ago, richard5933 said:

This test was done at -34 C. Of course 5w will reach areas of the engine faster at those temps. However, if my engine manufacturer (the people I'm hoping will stand behind their warranty) specifies 15w, then that's what I'd use.

Perhaps if you read the test information I was talking about "API CK-4 and OEM Wear Test Parameters" Where it states "Shell ROTELLA® T6 5W-40 full synthetic (CK-4) provides excellent protection against harmful engine wear. In 30 API CK-4 and OEM wear test parameters and 10 separate passing engine tests, the average result for Shell ROTELLA® T6 5W-40 was 50% of the respective limit." 

This is the same argument that people had when multigrade oils first came out. You can't use that because it isn't 40 weight all the time and won't protect your engine.

I think it would be extremely hard to deny a warranty because you used an oil that Met or exceeded the requirements and was approved  buy CES 20081 or CES 20086. 

By the way you might want to double check but I think you are out of warranty on your bus. 

Bill

[richard5933]

Obviously my engine is out of warranty... I was thinking of those that still have a warranty.
I'm still not sure I agree with your premise though. Are you saying that anyone whose engine calls for 15w40 can substitute the T-6 at 5w40? Seems to me that they are showing this comparison to make the point that the new product provides excellent protection. I don't see anywhere that they state it can replace 15w40 in any engine.

Some engines specify 15w40 (or other grades) for a reason beyond the lubrication itself. For example, a pump may be designed to move oil at a certain pressure based on the viscosity, and if the viscosity drops the pressure might not be the same.

I still think it best to check out the manufacturer's recommendations before making a change.

 

[five]

So the bottom line to this very interesting discussion....is do what your owner's manual says to do.

Also, I agree with WILDEBILL308, nobody has done 3,000 mile oil changes in decades....except those that take it to a shop that says you have to do it that often....so as to increase their bottom line.

[wildebill308]

8 hours ago, richard5933 said:

I still think it best to check out the manufacturer's recommendations before making a change.

 

What is hard to understand? For example Valvoline is partnered with Cummins if Cummins didn't want you to use a 5-40 why would they endorse it for use.

Valvoline’s Premium Blue Extreme Engine Oil is endorsed by Cummins Engine Company and is approved against the CES 20081 specification.

https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/pdf_archive/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/CF-2296.pdf

Well that is all the time I am going to waste. You can run recycled drain oil for all I care. 

My oil analysis reports show good numbers and that is all I care about. What do your numbers show? Why yes I can tell the difference as I have worked in a oil analysis lab. 

Bill 

 

[manholt]

Very interesting information, from two experts, one refining and one lab.  Thank you!  Does give me a reason, to investigate further on a rain day!

[jleamont]

We run the 10w-30 Shell rotella T6 on engines that are labeled 15w40. Approved and signed off on by Mack, Volvo, Cummins and Detroit. Not a one road tractor has a sticker stating that’s a suitable choice. But their engineering team knows it and approved it. As mentioned above we run it on engines that are 20 years old and they have exceed 1 Millon miles using it.

[five]

8 hours ago, jleamont said:

We run the 10w-30 Shell rotella T6 on engines that are labeled 15w40. Approved and signed off on by Mack, Volvo, Cummins and Detroit. Not a one road tractor has a sticker stating that’s a suitable choice. But their engineering team knows it and approved it. As mentioned above we run it on engines that are 20 years old and they have exceed 1 Millon miles using it.

As long as the engine manufacturers sign off on it, that's as good as being in the manual.

[fagnaml]

Some additional "technical info" on this topic.   This week I had my annual engine oil and filter changes performed by Cummins Coach Care in Houston while they had my motorhome for Onan generator repairs (I hit the twelve months since last oil change limit on my engine well before a mileage limit).  Since Cummins endorses Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40 engine oil, Cummins Coach Care Houston only uses Valvoline for work they do.   I've never used a Valvoline oil in any of my vehicles before so during lunch today I perused the Valvoline website for technical details about the Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40 engine oil.    Premium Blue oil is "conventional" meaning it's manufactured from crude oils.  The physical properties of the Premium Blue 15W-40 meets current API CK-4 and earlier specifications --> https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/9c99aef7-c07e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/ba8b3c4d-0abd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

The Valvoline oil replaces the Shell Rotella oil that was in my engine.  Both manufactures meet the CK-4 specifications.   What is the forum's experience with Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40 engine oil?

[f442485]

3 hours ago, fagnaml said:

Some additional "technical info" on this topic.   This week I had my annual engine oil and filter changes performed by Cummins Coach Care in Houston while they had my motorhome for Onan generator repairs (I hit the twelve months since last oil change limit on my engine well before a mileage limit).  Since Cummins endorses Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40 engine oil, Cummins Coach Care Houston only uses Valvoline for work they do.   I've never used a Valvoline oil in any of my vehicles before so during lunch today I perused the Valvoline website for technical details about the Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40 engine oil.    Premium Blue oil is "conventional" meaning it's manufactured from crude oils.  The physical properties of the Premium Blue 15W-40 meets current API CK-4 and earlier specifications --> https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/9c99aef7-c07e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/ba8b3c4d-0abd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

The Valvoline oil replaces the Shell Rotella oil that was in my engine.  Both manufactures meet the CK-4 specifications.   What is the forum's experience with Valvoline Premium Blue 15W-40 engine oil?

I only use Valvoline Premium Blue, that Cummins recommends. I had a lengthy conversation with a Valvoline engineer. He said that VPB oil is a blend, not straight conventional.I own a 2004 Holiday Rambler with a 330isc engine. When I did my first oil change, my fuel mileage dropped. Not trying to make this a long story but the combustion is also using the block temp to aid in combustion. I won't go back to any other oil brand.

[elkhartjim]

2 hours ago, f442485 said:

 When I did my first oil change, my fuel mileage dropped. Not trying to make this a long story but the combustion is also using the block temp to aid in combustion. I won't go back to any other oil brand.

So your fuel mileage went down and thats good?  What part of getting worse fuel mileage is good?

[wildebill308]

5 hours ago, f442485 said:

When I did my first oil change, my fuel mileage dropped. Not trying to make this a long story but the combustion is also using the block temp to aid in combustion. I won't go back to any other oil brand.

"Not trying to make this a long story" Well you need to elaborate some more. Please explain how changing your oil will lower your block temp enough to affect mileage. How are you monitoring what is going on in your engine? 

Bill

[manholt]

Got it in my Jeep, changing it back to Amsol Synthetic today!  Dropped from 16 to 14.4 mpg in one tank!  Enough said. 

I run the same as FIVE in coach and generator!

[wildebill308]

Well I would consider one tank not statistically accurate for gauging mileage. 

Bill

[manholt]

Bill, I had it serviced in Ruidoso, NM and refilled tank in Rapid City, SD.  Best I could do...still have a quarter of a tank left and will refill tomorrow in Burnet, Texas!  Now, I got to re Lube...Lol

[fagnaml]

F422485 --

Can you elaborate a bit more on your oil change and the resultant decrease in fuel mileage?   Given my experience on the Refining side of manufacturing engine oils, the API specifications (i.e. the current CK-4 spec for 15W-40 heavy duty oils) have a very tight range for all oil manufacturers to meet.  Changing "brands" of oil but still using 15W-40 should have very little, if any, affect on fuel mileage.    Changing oil "type" i.e. switching from a lower viscosity oil such as 10W-30 to higher viscosity oil such as 15W-40 would result in a small fuel mileage reduction that given driving habits may not be measurable.

Engine oil manufacturers predominantly use additive packages from Lubrizol, Chevron and ExxonMobil to meet the CK-4 specifications for viscosity index, lubricity, stability and contaminants control.   Lower priced engine oils (this Walmart brand) use "just enough" additives to meet API specs.  More expensive major brands (Shell, Mobil, Castrol, Pennzoil, etc.) strive to exceed API specs meaning those brands use additional additives.   Over time (i.e. many years / many miles), using lower priced engine oils results in slightly increased wear of engine parts, slightly more sludge in the oil pan, etc.  BUT with regards to fuel mileage, there should be no difference between lower price and higher price engine oils of the same type i.e. 15W-40.

[manholt]

Mike.

Your the expert on Refining Side, I guess for whatever reason, we lost the other one! 😟

[f442485]

Sorry but I'm a very slow at typing. My first oil change was to a full synthetic oil (Delo). My engine temp dropped about 8*, but my performance also dropped. That's when I called Cummins and spoked to an oil engineer. I asked if he had any idea what happened, that's when he asked if I had just performed an oil change and if I did, was it to a synthetic. He explained what was happening, so I drained out all the Delo and replaced it with Valvoline Premium Blue and everything went back to the way it was. 

 

[jleamont]

Interesting. I ran Mobile Delvac 15w40 before, switched to Shell Rotella 15w40 blend then onto full synthetic. Absolutely no difference other than the oil viscosity breakdown on my lube analysis wasn’t as bad. I have to say it wasn’t bad to begin with. But...but the terrain of travel changes annually, could that have had something to do with it, you bet ya! My MPG topped out this year with the full synthetic in the crankcase, I owe that to driving habit changes and I’m sure the oil helped some, but how much we will never know.

I purchase only top shelf brands, whichever I get the best price at that time. 

[wildebill308]

4 hours ago, f442485 said:

He explained what was happening,

What was happening? Which of the Dello oils were you using?

Bill

[elkhartjim]

On a recent trip to New Mexico I was averaging 7.5 mpg driving 62-63 mph, 1600 rpm's; I increased my speed to 70  mph, 1800rpms and my mileage went up to 8 mpg. 400 hp Cummins ISL with about 9000 miles on it.

I use Shell Rotella which helps pay for a few minutes per year of Mikes salary.

[manholt]

Huh??  Should have gone down!  You must have had a great tail wind.  Told you to stop eating beans with beer! 😁  What did it do, after you left the Mountains, west of Las Vegas, NM on the way home?