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Navigator1

1996 HR Navigator - HELP

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Hello everyone. Have a 1996 HR Navigator that I bought a couple of months ago, my first ever MH and I'm loving it.. Everything has been good with it so far until this Sunday 08-11-19, after coming back home from a weekend camping trip, stopped to drop my nephew at his house and waited there about 10 min before heading home. Took off fine from there but then I was getting minimal to no response to the gas pedal. Kept going like that for about half a mile and then it died on me as I was getting ready to enter the highway. Lots of room so pulled into the shoulder and waited a few minutes. Started it again but after 50 ft it died again. Waited another 15 minutes and tried to start it one more time. This time I could feel the response to the gas pedal and decided to put it on reverse and go back 50 ft to tested. It was doing ok so we took our chances and thanks God, was able to drive it home with no more issues. 
Sorry for the long explanation.

So, has anyone had this happen to you; what could be the problem and the fix. I will appreciate any input or suggestions on what to look for. Thank you.

20190726_143342.jpg

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You are going to have to post more info for the gurus. Engine, transmission,etc. Obviously a diesel( mfg and HP needed) and  probably an Allison. Nice looking ride.

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1 hour ago, obedb said:

You are going to have to post more info for the gurus. Engine, transmission,etc. Obviously a diesel( mfg and HP needed) and  probably an Allison. Nice looking ride.

It is a 1996 Holiday Rambler Navigator 38 ft with the Cummins 8.3L/300HP and Allison MD 3060 6 speed. 46000 miles on odometer, 150 gal fuel tank diesel pusher.

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I would start by checking fuel filters,  since it mysteriously came back to life, we will all  hope that is a good sign. Congratulations on the new acquisition, glad that your are loving it. Also welcome to the forum.

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Navigator, Welcome to the forum. As you just got it and don't know the maintenance history, I would change the fuel filters and add a double dose of Diesel Kleen. Then drive it around locally to see  if it helps.

Bill

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On the side of the engine (on the fuel injection pump) is this solenoid (photo below) turn the ignition on and watch it move, the next time it acts up go and see if its in the same position or if it partially released.

You can also check it to make sure its not hot, should be warm when energized but I have seen them where they are improperly adjusted or just worn out and get very hot, when that happens they will release and shut the fuel supply off to the engine until they cool. 

As mentioned, starting with the fuel filters is always a good place to begin, check this solenoid while you are in there.

Image result for 8.3 l cummins fuel shutoff solenoid installed on pump

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When you remove fuel filters, look for any  black in fuel. If you see black signs in fuel or filters, that indicates there is water in fuel, which allowed bacteria to grow. Biobor fuel treatment is a solution, however it may take replacing the filters several times to catch all the sludge.

BTW, one filter will have a water drain on its bottom. That should be tested for water occasionally  by draining out an ounce or two of liquid. If there is water, it will be plainly visible.

ref: http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html

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3 hours ago, jleamont said:

On the side of the engine (on the fuel injection pump) is this solenoid (photo below) turn the ignition on and watch it move, the next time it acts up go and see if its in the same position or if it partially released.

You can also check it to make sure its not hot, should be warm when energized but I have seen them where they are improperly adjusted or just worn out and get very hot, when that happens they will release and shut the fuel supply off to the engine until they cool. 

As mentioned, starting with the fuel filters is always a good place to begin, check this solenoid while you are in there.

Image result for 8.3 l cummins fuel shutoff solenoid installed on pump

I can't tell you how many I changed when I worked in a fleet shop.  There was a run of a weak design that we went through.  

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1 hour ago, huffypuff said:

I can't tell you how many I changed when I worked in a fleet shop.  There was a run of a weak design that we went through. 

YUP, same here! I also replaced many that were recently replaced due to improper adjustment. When they are energized it must be the same stroke as the lever on the pump. Said another way; the coil will not last if its trying to pull or push the lever farther than it can go. They overheat when not properly adjusted and melt down internally. 

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Thank everyone for your suggestions. I have replaced both of the fuel filters and the fuel shutoff solenoid also. After doing that I noticed a rattling noise inside the muffler so I took it apart and found something that doesn't look good to me :( Turbo chunks? Do I need to replace turbo also? How hard to do, will I need special tools? Thanks for any advice.1566771789734-2042861506.thumb.jpg.f9bb7363c4f3890bcec30d58325978bd.jpg

15667718845771642799871.jpg

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I would remove the air intake and exhaust pipe and take a look to see if you can identify where that shrapnel came from. With those open you should be able to see the compressor turbine on one side and exhaust turbine on the other. 

If possible take some pictures and post them on here.

Did the engine smoke? I wouldn’t start it at this point until after you verify where those pieces of metal came from.

Replacing the turbocharger doesn’t usually require special tools, just some patience as bolts might not be cooperative.

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The reason for an inspection of both sides, when the exhaust side fails often the bearings will fail from being out of balance and the compressor turbine will make contact with the housing. This will send metal down into the engine intake.

I have seen many engine failures from this and equally scratched my head wondering on others than had no symptoms of engine failure and ran many years and miles afterwards. I’d say the ratio has been 50/50.

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3 hours ago, jleamont said:

I would remove the air intake and exhaust pipe and take a look to see if you can identify where that shrapnel came from. With those open you should be able to see the compressor turbine on one side and exhaust turbine on the other. 

If possible take some pictures and post them on here.

Did the engine smoke? I wouldn’t start it at this point until after you verify where those pieces of metal came from.

Replacing the turbocharger doesn’t usually require special tools, just some patience as bolts might not be cooperative.

20190825_183358.thumb.jpg.d1609045b7fb68004fa4707dc1fabcf9.jpg20190825_183358.thumb.jpg.d1609045b7fb68004fa4707dc1fabcf9.jpg20190825_183340.thumb.jpg.07734e38f4abe6b40929e4fbc94fd702.jpg

 

This was how the fuel filters looked like after I opened them up. The small one was pretty bad compared to the large one. 

I did start the engine after I replaced the fuel filters and the solenoid and it started fine on the second try. There was no smoke and she ran very smooth, the only thing was the rattling in the muffler. That rattling has been there since I bought her, I thought that it was a loose bolt or something else around that area but not inside the muffler. While checking the engine after changing the filters I realized that the rattling was inside the muffler and that's when I decided to take it apart to see.

If I do have to replace the turbo unit, any special one better than others, any good upgrades, how much will it set me back? 

 

20190825_183352.jpg

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Yes the fuel filters look nasty, that's why you change them. It is always a good idea to have a second set with you incase you get some bad fuel.

The important thing is to do the turbo inspection like jleamont suggested and let us know what you find.

Bill

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8 hours ago, Navigator1 said:

If I do have to replace the turbo unit, any special one better than others, any good upgrades, how much will it set me back? 

Well, I am sure there is something for more performance but probably a lot more money than the original. In my experience with engines of this era, turbo chargers don't normally fail, they become damaged from operator error. 

Those filters look terrible. It begs the question on what the remaining fluids look like in the engine? How old is the coolant and transmission fluid? 

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Being the curious type, I would saw open the spin on type filter just to see how clogged that it is.

6 hours ago, jleamont said:

hose filters look terrible. It begs the question on what the remaining fluids look like in the engine? How old is the coolant and transmission fluid? 

I second Joe's suggestion to try find evidence of their age.

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6 hours ago, jleamont said:

Those filters look terrible. It begs the question on what the remaining fluids look like in the engine? How old is the coolant and transmission fluid? 

Yes, and I thought that I was getting a good deal on an rv with less than 46000 miles. The guy was a retired firefighter and he said that he took excellent care of it, maybe the outside. Let's hope it doesn't brake the bank before I can enjoy the darn thing.

BTW, thanks for all the good advice...

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1 hour ago, Navigator1 said:

Yes, and I thought that I was getting a good deal on an rv with less than 46000 miles. The guy was a retired firefighter and he said that he took excellent care of it, maybe the outside. Let's hope it doesn't brake the bank before I can enjoy the darn thing.

BTW, thanks for all the good advice...

Since you just brought your new to you coach before you go on your next major trip, check the dates on the tires.  Tires that are 7 years or older are prone to blow outs.  On a coach that size it could lead to a accident let alone blow out a fender well.  

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On 8/14/2019 at 6:34 AM, RayIN said:

When you remove fuel filters, look for any  black in fuel. If you see black signs in fuel or filters, that indicates there is water in fuel, which allowed bacteria to grow. Biobor fuel treatment is a solution, however it may take replacing the filters several times to catch all the sludge.

They were pretty bad, I just ordered some Biobor treatment and some more filters, in hopes that it will help getting rid of that nasty stuff, time will tell. 

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There are 2 options for your diesel fuel, #1 is have the fuel "polished", any large boat shop should have the proper equipment, it's expensive, which leads to #2 simply have your fuel tank pumped out and cleaned, old fuel disposed of; given today's diesel fuel prices it may be less money than polishing.

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That leads back to Joe's suggestion on 8/25!

This coach needs a total service of both engine & chassis, DOT info of tires, batteries.  Have you added fuel since purchase?  The coach has been sitting a lot if it only has 46k miles in 24 years!!!  Works on gas, NOT a DP!

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2 hours ago, manholt said:

That leads back to Joe's suggestion on 8/25!

This coach needs a total service of both engine & chassis, DOT info of tires, batteries.  Have you added fuel since purchase?  The coach has been sitting a lot if it only has 46k miles in 24 years!!!  Works on gas, NOT a DP!

I second this.  

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11 hours ago, Navigator1 said:

They were pretty bad, I just ordered some Biobor treatment and some more filters, in hopes that it will help getting rid of that nasty stuff, time will tell. 

On your coach do you have full access to the fuel tank? Our our HR I can remove our fuel tank with little effort (after its emptied). It pulls right out of the compartment it resides in after removing 4 bolts, a few fuel lines and unplug the sending unit. That would give you an opportunity to clean it or take it somewhere for a good cleaning. 

I'd even consider pressure washing the inside with it turned up on its end if its the same design as we have. You can see inside of ours easily through one of the fills, a small camera and it would be even easier. Just let it dry out for a few days on end, blow it out with compressed air and reinstall it. 

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I always have 2 primary 30 micron fuel filters in the coach spare parts box. I have had to use them twice in ten years. I would second all the suggestions made to establish your own baseline for future maintenance and peace of mind.

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