Charging Electrical Vehicles

[obiwan_canoli]

As electrical cars become increasingly common (I just put down a deposit on the new 2020 electric Mustang due out in the Fall, 2020), I'm wondering what, if any, progress has, is, or is on the drawing board to address the potential for RV's to charge electric vehicles via shore power, or while being towed...

Does anyone know of a site, or other source, that speaks to this?

 

[rayin]

IMO it is at present impractical. This website and the charts  make it plain re-charging an electric car from a MH can be accomplished, at a very slow rate, at least 2 days.https://evobsession.com/electric-car-charging-101-types-of-charging-apps-more/

[kaypsmith]

Maybe some technical mind could figure how to use regenerative braking as a means to charge the EV while being towed behind the motorhome to charge the batteries in the EV while the RV is stopping and or coasting downhill, then it might become practical. Otherwise unless you are only short journeys in your toad each day, then I agree with RayIn. I have a neighbor who owns three EV's that he and his wife use for going back and forth to work daily and he loves them. The guy is very green minded and explained to me that he has a special deal with Alabama Power which gives a lowered per kilowatt power bill for charging these cars between 9 pm and 6 am each night. I believe that there is places for EV's but at the present they are not practical for using as a toad unless as stated above, you are not going to place a lot of miles on it while RV'ing. Hope yours works out well for you, and check with your power company for discounts for charging your Mustang. LOL

[richard5933]

It will be interesting to see what develops in the future, especially with the regenerative braking. Given the proper towing set up, I'm wondering if someone will figure out how to use regenerative braking in the EV toad as sort of a Jake Brake for the rig. With just a little extra wiring and a control unit, the system could identify a no-fuel situation in the coach and activate the regen as needed.

I would anticipate that as EV coaches come to the market, you'll start seeing charging connections at campgrounds, probably the newer ones and/or higher end ones first.

Many stores and malls are now installing charging stations, at least around us. Most are Tesla, not sure if other models can use these. You could always use one of the charging stations like these as you travel.

 

[dickandlois]

12 hours ago, OBIWAN_CANOLI said:

As electrical cars become increasingly common (I just put down a deposit on the new 2020 electric Mustang due out in the Fall, 2020), I'm wondering what, if any, progress has, is, or is on the drawing board to address the potential for RV's to charge electric vehicles via shore power, or while being towed...

Does anyone know of a site, or other source, that speaks to this?

 

Nothing is free, but I'm of the opinion that charging the EV's is possible while being Towed by an RV. However! how soon will that ability be practical enough to build it into every vehicle! Considering the market size of the RV market compared to the overall market?

Towing and charging one is going to add a load to the Coach drive train, that leads to lower Mileage. Using the on board generators is a possibility ! However! they come in many sizes and require fuel.

The KW power rating is around 24 and 54 KW depending on the model.  The DC voltage level on the batteries is around 500 volts. Higher the voltage the lower the current requirement, But building a battery with a high voltage level presents it own challenges and safety requirements and EV is not like gas, diesel, CNG or Hydrogen as a fuel source one can use everything in the tanks. Electric battery allow only around 25 % of what is stored and the higher the discharge point - the longer the charging curve.

New battery science is evolving and some issued will be solved.  That only means for every step forward new challenges pop up!

This is a link that might help understand the issue posted, but be per paired to do a fair amount of reading down the road. 

How many are into the Sciences Chemistry and Physics? Areas that help one understand what lies ahead.

 https://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/electric-car-battery-basics-capacity-charging-and-range.html

     Happy and Safe Travels with a good dose of curiosity.

Rich. 

 

[jleamont]

We have a couple of electric trucks at work. The regenerative braking is their saving grace for their 60-70 mile trip (that’s all you get between charges). Neat technology that I am sure will someday blossom into much more.

Interesting enough the environmental impact the battery has is scary should it need disposed of. However they claim it COULD outlast the truck (I guess they are not banking on defective batteries).

We did ask should it die and need charged in route could we tow it with the rear wheels on the ground to recharge it, the answer was only if you want a devastating fire. Not the answer I was expecting. 

[manholt]

When it comes to E cars/light duty delivery trucks, I can only give you the experience of Norway.  What was the optimal cost effective green machine, 12 years ago, is astronomically expensive today!  As you get more and more electrical plug inns, you need more electrical out put, and that brings the cost of usage up!  6 years ago, the Govt decided on no more diesel cars.  The drivers who had diesel, switched back to gas or elect., then the price of electricity doubled across the board.  2 years ago, Norway, who had the cheapest electric rate in Europe, 10 years earlier, now has the highest.  

As an example.  Our office building, in 2010, cost us in US$ about 100,000 a year...now it's over 500,000!  That's on 764,000 sq. ft.  To combat this, there is now a law against any Vehicular driving in Oslo!  Think infrastructure...like food delivery, booze, clothing, tourists, etc.  

[docj]

2 hours ago, DickandLois said:

Nothing is free, but I'm of the opinion that charging the EV's is possible while being Towed by an RV.

There's absolutely nothing that would prevent charging an EV while being towed by a MH, but whether or not it would make economic sense is another question.  The electrical energy to charge the batteries would have to come from the MH's fuel tank.  Assuming even a 40% diesel efficiency of converting the energy in the fuel into mechanical work and then another 60% for converting that energy into electrical power, it might just be better to plug the EV into an outlet each time, if you're staying at a CG with electrical hookups, especially if it doesn't charge extra for charging an EV. (They don't yet, but they sure will if this becomes common) 

If you buy an EV with a >250 mi range it probably would suffice for day-trip use while the MH is parked.  We like to take long day-trips but 250 mi (assuming A/C usage in the car) would be enough for us.

[kaypsmith]

As stated much earlier in this thread, the charging system that one can plug into a 120 volt outlet will only produce enough charge to carry the  EV about 30 to 40 miles overnight. So if you use the 50 amp service to get a better charge rate, where will you plug the RV into? Yes it is feasible but who will pay for the electricity then?

[wildebill308]

If there is a demand I can see the campgrounds adding a pay to use charging station, separate from the RV pedestal. I don't expect to see it.

Bill

[wolfe10]

How many RV parks electrical systems are over-designed to accommodate additional very high amp 240 VAC draws???

[wildebill308]

Exactly, too many can't handle the current load. How much extra will the operator of the park charge you to plug in a EV?

I see lots of hype for EVs but no real demand from the public.  

Bill

[docj]

53 minutes ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

I see lots of hype for EVs but no real demand from the public.  

IMHO if you live in an urban area and have the ability to have your own high speed charging setup an EV might make sense.  If your daily drive is <150 mi you should easily be accommodated by an EV with a >250 mi range. 

But all the hype I read about lots of charging stations being installed is IMO just hype.  A month ago I looked at the Tesla website and looked at charging stations in my area of South TX.  If I want to take a trip from my home in Rockport to downtown Houston (~200 miles away), I'd have to stop at a Supercharger in Victoria TX in order to ensure that I didn't arrive in Houston with a very low charge on my batteries. Assuming the charger was not being used, I guess a recharge would take ~30 minutes or so compared to the 5 minutes it takes to buy gas.  If I chose to take the "back way " to Houston along highway 35 I'd be out of luck entirely.  There are a number of charging location in downtown Houston but not nearly as many as their are gas stations.  If lots of people started using EVs there wouldn't be nearly enough of them..

Quite honestly, I think the EV "model" is based on people living in urban/suburban areas who have access to their own overnight charging capability.  For lots of folks this would be Ok.  But for those who can't install their own chargers I think the concept quickly falls apart.  What are going going to do, on your way home from work stop at a charging station and sit around for a half hour or more to charge up?  Or maybe do it on the way to work in the morning?  I'm not sure many people would find that acceptable. But if you live in an apartment complex or rely on street parking you wouldn't have any other options.  Do we really expect that parking lots are going to install enough charging stations for all commuters to plug in their EVs or that apartment complexes are going to provide a charger for every apartment unit?  In your dreams IMO.

[jleamont]

7 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

How many RV parks electrical systems are over-designed to accommodate additional very high amp 240 VAC draws???

Probably NONE. As bill mentioned it’s a crap shoot if the tower can handle most coaches let alone a 240vac car plugged into the tower with a RV. 

My guess is campgrounds would install charging stations in the overflow parking for electric cars.....someday.....maybe. You can bet there will be an up charge for that service especially when most charge for bingo.

[richard5933]

8 hours ago, docj said:

IMHO if you live in an urban area and have the ability to have your own high speed charging setup an EV might make sense.  If your daily drive is <150 mi you should easily be accommodated by an EV with a >250 mi range. 

But all the hype I read about lots of charging stations being installed is IMO just hype.  A month ago I looked at the Tesla website and looked at charging stations in my area of South TX.  If I want to take a trip from my home in Rockport to downtown Houston (~200 miles away), I'd have to stop at a Supercharger in Victoria TX in order to ensure that I didn't arrive in Houston with a very low charge on my batteries. Assuming the charger was not being used, I guess a recharge would take ~30 minutes or so compared to the 5 minutes it takes to buy gas.  If I chose to take the "back way " to Houston along highway 35 I'd be out of luck entirely.  There are a number of charging location in downtown Houston but not nearly as many as their are gas stations.  If lots of people started using EVs there wouldn't be nearly enough of them..

Quite honestly, I think the EV "model" is based on people living in urban/suburban areas who have access to their own overnight charging capability.  For lots of folks this would be Ok.  But for those who can't install their own chargers I think the concept quickly falls apart.  What are going going to do, on your way home from work stop at a charging station and sit around for a half hour or more to charge up?  Or maybe do it on the way to work in the morning?  I'm not sure many people would find that acceptable. But if you live in an apartment complex or rely on street parking you wouldn't have any other options.  Do we really expect that parking lots are going to install enough charging stations for all commuters to plug in their EVs or that apartment complexes are going to provide a charger for every apartment unit?  In your dreams IMO.

Here in the Milwaukee area, we're starting to see charging stations pop up in company employee parking lots, mall parking lots, airports, and other places. I've seen them along the Ohio turnpike in rest stops. Surprised that there aren't more in your area. My guess is that in the next couple of years you'll start to see them nearly everywhere, including on back roads.

[manholt]

Our electric grid can only put out X amount, most grids in metropolitan areas go close to max in summer now!  Add in the EV's and I predict Brown/Black out, chaos!  Especially around North Central & East Coast...Harris and Galveston County, is serviced by Reliant elect + others and they send out info every Summer on how to lower the use of electricity to prevent overload.

[kaypsmith]

I'm seeing many Cracker Barrel's in Tennessee with assigned parking spaces with EV charging stations, serves two purposes, reserves parking space as well as charges your EV.

[richard5933]

2 hours ago, manholt said:

Our electric grid can only put out X amount, most grids in metropolitan areas go close to max in summer now!  Add in the EV's and I predict Brown/Black out, chaos!  Especially around North Central & East Coast...Harris and Galveston County, is serviced by Reliant elect + others and they send out info every Summer on how to lower the use of electricity to prevent overload.

Then they best get to work building out a modern grid, cause they are like it or not EVs are coming, and it's going to be happening sooner than people expect.

Maybe building a new electric grid will be the equivalent of a moon shot for the coming generation.

 

[wildebill308]

2 hours ago, richard5933 said:

Then they best get to work building out a modern grid, cause they are like it or not EVs are coming, and it's going to be happening sooner than people expect.

We shall see. I still don't see any pent up demand for EVs. I have been paying attention when we travel and I don't see  that many on the road. I have heard the same mantra for the steam powered cars, the gas turbine powered cars and the natural gas powered cars. I almost forgot the fuel cell powered car.

Where are they? 

Bill

[rayin]

5 hours ago, richard5933 said:

Then they best get to work building out a modern grid, cause they are like it or not EVs are coming, and it's going to be happening sooner than people expect.

Maybe building a new electric grid will be the equivalent of a moon shot for the coming generation.

 

The electrical grid is only one part of our failing infrastructure; worst part, NO-ONE is talking about our foremost national infrastructure problem. Climate change is a lower priority when we become buried in trash and cannot breathe or find safe water.

I'm not sorry I got carried away.

[docj]

18 hours ago, richard5933 said:

Here in the Milwaukee area, we're starting to see charging stations pop up in company employee parking lots, mall parking lots, airports, and other places. I've seen them along the Ohio turnpike in rest stops. Surprised that there aren't more in your area. My guess is that in the next couple of years you'll start to see them nearly everywhere, including on back roads.

You're comparing a metro area with ~1.6M people to a mid-sized city with ~300k people.  We simply don't have the population base to justify investment in charging stations.  As I said, there are a couple around town at some hotels but no Tesla "superchargers" that I'm aware of (and I think those are only usable with Tesla's vehicles, anyway.

IMHO what will continue to make battery-powered EV's unacceptable as "long range driving vehicles," no matter how many chargers get installed, is the fact that even a Tesla Supercharger takes 60-90 minutes for a full recharge.  When I'm using my car for long trips I'm usually traveling ~400 miles a day.  I would hate to have to sit around waiting for the battery to charge, even if a charger lane happened to be open when I needed it.  I'd much rather have a fuel cell-powered EV that I could refuel with methanol or other liquid fuel.  JMO.

[manholt]

Texas, NM, OK, WY, Montana and the Dakotas, are a lot less populated than West coast & New England and I hope they stay there! 

[richard5933]

Sounds like the same arguments used against gasoline engines at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Never be enough population in remote areas, never be enough filling stations, etc. Naysayers were sure this new technology would never take off.

The current generation of batteries are obviously still a work in progress, but once the EV ecosystem hits critical mass it will take off. The question for small towns and less populated areas won't be whether or not to join the party. The question will be how long to wait and how far behind they want to fall before joining.

Regarding recharge times... I thought the same thing at first - it will take too long to fully charge to make cross country travel possible. But, most of the newer systems can do a big amount of charging quickly, then it's just the last bit that takes a long time. Remember, you don't need to fully charge every time - you only need enough to get to the next charging station.

[wildebill308]

7 hours ago, richard5933 said:

Sounds like the same arguments used against gasoline engines at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Never be enough population in remote areas, never be enough filling stations, etc. Naysayers were sure this new technology would never take off.

What it sounds like? What it sounds like is a technology that can't meet the needs of the marketplace at a price people are willing to pay. 

Bill

[hammer55]

to me, charging a vehicle using the same products they are trying to get away from is a little ludicrous, everything that  turns uses oil, from wind mills, to electric driven motors,  for me I will use oil till they find a way not to charge with it or create power with out it