ISL Engine Failure

[ITResC@gmx.com]

Hi all.

I have looked all over the Internet for a blown-up picture of the Cummins ISL 400 HP Turbo Diesel engine, and am probably not using the best search parameters. The ALFA threw a piston rod through the engine block in southern Utah on my first trip as a full-timer. Long story short, got her to Cummins in Las Vegas, where they tore it apart and found that a "screw" -- "one of two" -- had fallen out of something that connects the rod to the crankshaft. The tech showed me the Cummins online catalog of parts, but he went so fast I missed half of it.

It doesn't appear as if there was anything I could have done to prevent it. He said in nine years he has seen two similar events. But I would like to find a picture of this part for my own education. They have ordered a "short block" and are rebuilding the engine.

Your help is appreciated.

[wolfe10]

Hi all,

I have looked all over the Internet for a blow up picture of the Cummins ISL 400 HP Turbo Diesel engine, and am probably not using the best search parameters. The ALFA threw a piston rod through the engine block in southern Utah on my first trip as a full timer. Long story short, got her to Cummins in Las Vegas where they tore it apart and found a "screw" "one of two" had fallen out of something that connects the rod to the crankshaft. The tech showed me the Cummins online catalog of parts but he went so fast I missed half of it. Doesn't appear as if there was anything I could have done to prevent it. He said in 9 years he has seen 2 similar events. But I would like to find a picture of this part for my own education. They have ordered a "short block" and are rebuilding the engine.

Your help is appreciated.

Cathe,

Though, clearly there other causes of engine failure, this is one that does affect the Cummins ISL.

This MAY be the issue with your engine:

NHTSA Campaign Number: 07E033000

Vehicle/Equipment Make: CUMMINS

Vehicle/Eqipment Model: ISL CM850

Model Year: n/a

Mfg Campaign Number:

Mfg Component Desc: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE:DIESEL

Mfg Involved in Recall: CUMMINS, INC.

Manufacture Dates:

Type of Report: (E) Vehicle

Potential # of Units Affected: 2,159

Date Owner Notified by Mfg: 07-20-07

Recall Initiated By: MFR

Mfg Responsible for Recall: CUMMINS, INC.

Report Recieved Date: 06-04-07

Record Creation Date: 06-08-07

Regulation Part Number:

FMVSS Number:

Defect Summary: CERTAIN ISL CUMMINS CM850 DIESEL ENGINES PRODUCED FOR RECREATIONAL VEHICLE APPLICATIONS BETWEEN OCTOBER 17, 2005, AND APRIL 18, 2006, WITH ENGINE SERIAL NUMBER RANGE FROM 46543077 TO 46603939. THE CONNECTING ROD CONTAINS A MACHINING DEFECT IN THE WRIST PIN BUSHING OF THE ROD THAT COULD CAUSE SEIZURE OF THE PISTON PIN.

Consequence Summary: IF ALLOWED TO PROGRESS, THIS COULD LEAD TO ENGINE FAILURE WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF THE ROD RUPTURING THE BLOCK CAVITY. OIL AND DEBRIS ON THE ROADWAY COULD RESULT IN A VEHICLE CRASH.

Corrective Summary: EACH VEHICLE MANUFACTURER WILL NOTIFY OWNERS OF VEHICLES THAT CONTAIN THESE ENGINES ABOUT THIS DEFECT. CUMMINS WILL CONDUCT THE REMEDY CAMPAIGN AND PROVIDE QUARTERLY COMPLETION REPORTS BROKEN DOWN BY VEHICLE MANUFACTURER; HOWEVER THE VEHICLE MANUFACTURERS WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RECALL. VEHICLES WILL BE REPAIRED AT NO COST TO THE OWNER. THE RECALL BEGAN ON JULY 20, 2007. OWNERS CAN CONTACT EITHER THEIR VEHICLE MANUFACTURER OR CUMMINS CUSTOMER ASSISTANCE CENTER AT 1-800-343-7357.

[tbutler]

As my granddaughter would say, "Ewww." Cathe, I hope that Wolfe10's post helps out. There is indeed nothing you could have done to prevent this assuming that your engine had oil! In terms of a blow-up diagram of your engine, you may not be able to find something specific to the Cummins 400 ISL but you could look for a blow up of any kind of gasoline or diesel engine. The rod is connected to the crankshaft with a u-shaped piece that completes a circle around the crankshaft. This u-shaped piece (I don't know its proper name) is held in place by two bolts, one on each end of the U. This is a little different than the description of the defect referred to in Wolfe 10's post. That failure would have occurred at the connection of the rod to the piston itself. Either way, the result would be similar to what you describe. At the very least, Cummins should give you a sizable discount on any costs if not paying for the entire cost of repairing the engine. Cummins engines routinely have a 5 year warranty.

Best of luck and let us know how things turn out.

[ITResC@gmx.com]

Hi Gentlemen,

The description by Tom Butler fits closer to the pictures that I was shown from the Cummins internal catalog. I am going to ask the shop supervisor if he can print me the pictures. Thanks Brett, I Will Double check on the recall with them, but I suspect there was enough damage internally that many parts have been replaced. I am going to ask about additional warranty or extended warranty on this new engine.

It is fully covered under the 5 year warranty. So my costs are only the additional items I asked them to do for me while the engine was out of the coach body. I did have them replace the air filter while it was out ( 2 years since the change but checked at each maintenance) and I asked them to specifically look at each belt and hose and replace anything that looked the least bit worn.

In my latest phone call the supervisor is telling me the ALFA will be ready to go Friday, October 2. I am so ready to leave Las Vegas!!!

Cathe

[ITResC@gmx.com]

Hi Gentlemen,

The description by Tom Butler fits closer to the pictures that I was shown from the Cummins internal catalog. I am going to ask the shop supervisor if he can print me the pictures. Thanks Brett, I Will Double check on the recall with them, but I suspect there was enough damage internally that many parts have been replaced. I am going to ask about additional warranty or extended warranty on this new engine.

It is fully covered under the 5 year warranty. So my costs are only the additional items I asked them to do for me while the engine was out of the coach body. I did have them replace the air filter while it was out ( 2 years since the change but checked at each maintenance) and I asked them to specifically look at each belt and hose and replace anything that looked the least bit worn.

In my latest phone call the supervisor is telling me the ALFA will be ready to go Friday, October 2. I am so ready to leave Las Vegas!!!

Cathe

10/2/09 Update: The final cause written up on the invoice: "Cylinder Block Conn Rod Bolt/Capscrew Misassembled" "#4 Rod Cap Bolt fell out and was found in the Oil pan. The Rod broke the block" The list of damage goes on for a paragraph. I will paraphase the worst items identified: " Head, turbo, upper and lower gasket sets, Cam damaged, 2 tappets, 2 pushtubes, 3 injectors, .... Lube pump, oil cooler, various soft plugs, nuts and bolts. Cummins invoiced itself $11,649 Parts + $5490 Labor.

Thank God for warranties!!!

[wolfe10]

10/2/09 Update: The final cause written up on the invoice: "Cylinder Block Conn Rod Bolt/Capscrew Misassembled" "#4 Rod Cap Bolt fell out and was found in the Oil pan. The Rod broke the block" The list of damage goes on for a paragraph. I will paraphase the worst items identified: " Head, turbo, upper and lower gasket sets, Cam damaged, 2 tappets, 2 pushtubes, 3 injectors, .... Lube pump, oil cooler, various soft plugs, nuts and bolts. Cummins invoiced itself $11,649 Parts + $5490 Labor.

Thank God for warranties!!!

As Tom said, there is nothing you could have done to prevent damage from an improperly torqued or defective connecting rod bolt.

I am surprised the engine made it that many miles before failure.

Glad to hear you are about to get back on the road.

Brett Wolfe

[rthooker@msn.com]

I have a 2005 Holiday Rambler with a 400 Cummins with 61k miles. We were on our way to Alaska from Indiana. Made it to Saint Paul.  Had it towed to the Cummins dealer. They said my cylinder sleeve in my #1 cylinder slid down and hit the crank and blew the engine. They want 36k to replace the engine and Cummins will not cover anything. 

[wolfe10]

rthooker@msn.c,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum.

I am trying to picture how a cylinder liner can slide down and hit the crank.  Clearly, if it did there are issues with the block. Please, please post pictures of this.

Assume you have verified this is not a "wrist pin issue" (see info above). Though most of those problem occurred very early in engine life, not after more than a decade.

Was there evidence of cylinder liner erosion (picture of outside of cylinder liner would be helpful)? Like all diesel engine with liners, the proper coolant is important for engine life. Improper coolant can lead to cylinder erosion and in worse cased to holes through the cylinder liner.

 

[wildebill308]

On 9/30/2009 at 1:43 AM, ITResC@gmx.com said:

Hi all.

I have looked all over the Internet for a blown-up picture of the Cummins ISL 400 HP Turbo Diesel engine, and am probably not using the best search parameters. The ALFA threw a piston rod through the engine block in southern Utah on my first trip as a full-timer. Long story short, got her to Cummins in Las Vegas, where they tore it apart and found that a "screw" -- "one of two" -- had fallen out of something that connects the rod to the crankshaft. The tech showed me the Cummins online catalog of parts, but he went so fast I missed half of it.

It doesn't appear as if there was anything I could have done to prevent it. He said in nine years he has seen two similar events. But I would like to find a picture of this part for my own education. They have ordered a "short block" and are rebuilding the engine.

Your help is appreciated.

Sorry to hear about your problem. I think you can find pictures of your engine by going to Cummins Quickserve. It is the same reference your dealer uses to look up parts.

 https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html

Bill

[tbutler]

Bill, this is a revived discussion.  The post requesting engine diagram is from '09.  I have bookmarked the page you referenced in case I need it - but hoping that I don't!  Thank you...

Now we're working on a self destructive engine.  Scary stuff.  I'd have to apply for a Federal Grant for that repair!  I would assume that Cummins has told you about their Power Club.  You might think, why would I want to join their club?  They will give you a 5% discount which could be huge in your case.

Our first coach, a 1992 Monaco Dynasty, dropped an exhaust valve in 2003.  We were in California and had just been on the road for two years.  We were on their lot for a little more than a week, about this time of year.  We spent the 4th of July camping at Cummins in Redding, CA. 

When you say you are at a Cummins Dealer, is it the Cummins Coach Care facility at 1600 Buerkle Rd., White Bear Lake, MN 55110?  That shop is on the north side of St. Paul, Tel:  651-636-1000.  I've always gotten good service from Cummins and the Coach Care facilities have been most helpful.  If you aren't at a corporate shop, you might want to investigate a tow to this facility.  It is my preference to always have work done at a corporate shop.  The bigger the job, the more important to have the work done by top-notch mechanics.  I think the corporate shops have greater ability to provide financial relief, rebuilt parts, reconditioned parts, parts at cost, comping some work.  It won't be a huge amount but it can be done.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.  As difficult as it might be, being as friendly as you can will increase your odds of minimizing your cost.  There are things they can do to reduce your costs.  I've always found Cummins shops to be sympathetic to coach owners.  Best of luck getting repairs done and back on the road. 

I'm betting the Alaska trip is looking a little less likely for this year.  Don't give up on it, Alaska is well worth the wait.  Keep it in the bucket!

[jleamont]

Brett, the only way that could happen is if the upper landing cracked in a complete circle and the liner dropped. I'm not saying it's not possible but very very unusual.

[obedb]

Was scratching my head also. Liners pit from lack of additive, that makes a mess and calls for an in frame.

[venrick1]

We had the same thing a year ago this month.  Dropped #3 liner while on flat level highway.  Coach had 45000 miles.  $36000 for a factory recon engine and cummins would not give us a penny of consideration due to age of coach (2006 See Ya Gold)  Sorry I don't still have pics of the liner...looked like black potato chips sitting in bottom of pan. Piston stayed in bore and beat block to death.

[tjsolberg]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2009 at 7:02 AM, wolfe10 said:

Cathe,

Though, clearly there other causes of engine failure, this is one that does affect the Cummins ISL.

This MAY be the issue with your engine:

NHTSA Campaign Number: 07E033000

Vehicle/Equipment Make: CUMMINS

Vehicle/Eqipment Model: ISL CM850

Model Year: n/a

Mfg Campaign Number:

Mfg Component Desc: ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING:ENGINE:DIESEL

Mfg Involved in Recall: CUMMINS, INC.

Manufacture Dates:

Type of Report: (E) Vehicle

Potential # of Units Affected: 2,159

Date Owner Notified by Mfg: 07-20-07

Recall Initiated By: MFR

Mfg Responsible for Recall: CUMMINS, INC.

Report Recieved Date: 06-04-07

Record Creation Date: 06-08-07

Regulation Part Number:

FMVSS Number:

Defect Summary: CERTAIN ISL CUMMINS CM850 DIESEL ENGINES PRODUCED FOR RECREATIONAL VEHICLE APPLICATIONS BETWEEN OCTOBER 17, 2005, AND APRIL 18, 2006, WITH ENGINE SERIAL NUMBER RANGE FROM 46543077 TO 46603939. THE CONNECTING ROD CONTAINS A MACHINING DEFECT IN THE WRIST PIN BUSHING OF THE ROD THAT COULD CAUSE SEIZURE OF THE PISTON PIN.

Consequence Summary: IF ALLOWED TO PROGRESS, THIS COULD LEAD TO ENGINE FAILURE WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF THE ROD RUPTURING THE BLOCK CAVITY. OIL AND DEBRIS ON THE ROADWAY COULD RESULT IN A VEHICLE CRASH.

Corrective Summary: EACH VEHICLE MANUFACTURER WILL NOTIFY OWNERS OF VEHICLES THAT CONTAIN THESE ENGINES ABOUT THIS DEFECT. CUMMINS WILL CONDUCT THE REMEDY CAMPAIGN AND PROVIDE QUARTERLY COMPLETION REPORTS BROKEN DOWN BY VEHICLE MANUFACTURER; HOWEVER THE VEHICLE MANUFACTURERS WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RECALL. VEHICLES WILL BE REPAIRED AT NO COST TO THE OWNER. THE RECALL BEGAN ON JULY 20, 2007. OWNERS CAN CONTACT EITHER THEIR VEHICLE MANUFACTURER OR CUMMINS CUSTOMER ASSISTANCE CENTER AT 1-800-343-7357.

 

[wolfe10]

My post (quoted in post immediately above) is 9 1/2 years old.

If an engine were to fail due to wrist pin issue, I would expect it to fail well before it reached 13 years old (newest SN within the campaign).

Yes, would certainly like to hear of experiences to the contrary.

[tjsolberg]

6 minutes ago, wolfe10 said:

My post (quoted in post immediately above) is 9 1/2 years old.

If an engine were to fail due to wrist pin issue, I would expect it to fail well before it reached 13 years old (newest SN within the campaign).

Yes, would certainly like to hear of experiences to the contrary.

Brett,

Would you recommend one of these engines if the recall was completed before any issues occurred and the engine now has 47K miles on it?  Or should I still be concerned?

Tim

[wolfe10]

Hopefully someone with first hand information on the campaign will weigh in, but my recollection (it was a long time ago) was that they did not do internal engine repair, just did a modification that would allow you to know that there was excessive blow-by (result of wrist pin wear in cylinder liner). 

If this is incorrect, I will be happy to delete!

That said, if an engine has made it 13+ years and 47,000 miles, I would be comfortable that the wrist pin was OK.

[tjsolberg]

Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm trying to get more information on work.  We'll see where it goes. Thanks. again.

Tim

[manholt]

Yep, my 2007 WB, 40' had a 2007 Cummings 400 and never had a problem!  They sent me a notice...I had all my work done at Cummings (annual), 4 years, 63,000+/-!

[jleamont]

1 hour ago, wolfe10 said:

but my recollection (it was a long time ago) was that they did not do internal engine repair, just did a modification that would allow you to know that there was excessive blow-by (result of wrist pin wear in cylinder liner). 

YUP, no internal repairs were made, just a warning devise of some sort was installed if it actually had the recall completed (I think it was a light to detect excessive crankcase pressure). Every once in a while you hear of one come apart, it always makes you wonder if it was related or not. Me personally I'd use it as a bargaining tool or if you are a worry wart, walk away.

If you are armed with knowledge you can really use it to your advantage!

[wildebill308]

Goe, what was the other big problem, I think it was valves coming apart. Or was that on the 600+ hp ISX?

Bill

[jleamont]

9 hours ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

Goe, what was the other big problem, I think it was valves coming apart. Or was that on the 600+ hp ISX?

Bill

That was the ISX, HP didn't matter, they all had problems, some worse than others.

[hermanmullins]

Wasn't that with the 650 HP Cummins. Something about dropping valves if I remember correctly. I tried to find the topic but was not successful.

Herman 

[jleamont]

1 hour ago, hermanmullins said:

Wasn't that with the 650 HP Cummins.

I believe so, but the ISX is an ISX, HP is all software and fuel injectors. They all had Ceramic Plunger failure's in the fuel injection pump that would send pieces of ceramic through the oil system destroying the engine. 

[hermanmullins]

Good to know. I know there is a posting out there but I just couldn't find it.

Herman