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MWeiner

Smaller Diesel Or Larger Gasoline Engine? Longevity/Maintenance/ Resale/ Performance?

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Did you purchase a comparably sized Class B with a gasoline or diesel engine and WHY? 

Most of the gasoline versions have a slightly larger engine to deal with the additional weight that the coach has to carry... while a diesel engine can and usually is a smaller engine with even greater torque than most gasoline engines.

Most gasoline engines can be serviced just about anywhere, but, you may need a specialist to work and diagnose a diesel, especially Mercedes Benz... on the other hand, Mercedes Benz diesels are known for their longevity and long service intervals, so, if you have your engine maintenance done before you go, you're going to be good for at least 10,000 miles before your next oil change... 

And, diesels in general can be smaller.. and get twice the mileage a gasoline engine can get with more pulling power and performance...this is especially important when climbing hills and driving through the mountains... even at low speeds...

Not once, anywhere, on our cross country trip did we encounter any situation where the coach had any difficulty climbing hills and mountains.... and we went some pretty steep locations...

Resale value is another advantage for diesels.... because they are known for their longevity, people will generally pay more for one when it's time to sell or trade your coach...And, mileage on the engine is NOT taken into effect according to NADA ( National Automobiles Dealer Association) on used vehicles....it's only a consideration on gasoline engines..

What was your reason for going diesel or gasoline???

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The Sprinter 3500 and Transit 350HD are direct competitors and I've owned both...  Here is my take on the issue:

I used a proforma spreadsheet to compare the two engine options when purchasing our TS. I looked at the following items:

Initial cost of the diesel engine over the base gas engine in the purchase price.  In the case of our Transit it is about a $6K option for the diesel.  Gasoline wins this round.

Maintenance costs of the diesel versus the gasoline engine.  I pay around $50 for a oil change on my Ford every 7,500 miles, or every six months.  A Sprinter may be at 10K miles but how much is an oil change?  I can't even buy the M-B spec oil necessary for what I pay for the complete service.  Plus I don't have any diesel filters to purchase.  Gasoline wins again.

The MPG of the diesel versus gas.  Our MBS, when it ran :rolleyes:, didn't do bad at 16-17MPG.  The Transit is getting mid 14's in comparison.  Now add in the extra cost per gallon of diesel, and DEF, over gas.  The fuel price per mile was very close...so close I would never see any payback worth discussing.  Right now around here diesel is running around $2.99 a gallon, gas is $2.49.  Diesel cost per mile at 17MPG divided in to $2.99 a gallon is 17.5 cents per mile.  Gas cost per mile at 14.5MPG divided in to $2.49 a gallon is 17.1 cents per mile.   And a gas engine doesn't need DEF.  Even so this round is close enough I called it a tie...

Collectively those three items told me it did not make financial $en$e to "upgrade" to the optional diesel when we ordered our TS.

Power?  I loose on torque...  Here are the posted numbers: 

M-B Sprinter 3.0L V-6  Diesel:  188 HP and 325 ft-lbs of torque.

Ford Transit  3.2L I-5 Diesel: 185 horsepower and 350 lb.-ft. of torque.

Ford Transit 3.7L Gasoline:  275 horsepower and 260 lb.-ft. of torque.

My 3.7L gas V-6 runs great and doesn't have any "power" issues..at least the way I drive.  I've driven I-75 thru TN and KY both ways and the cruise held 62MPH just fine through the mountains.  No, it isn't the Rockies...but it isn't flat either.  I admit it did down shift in to fifth gear on some of the longer steep grades.  Not bad considering that our TS weighed in right at 10,000 pounds when I had the RVSEF do a "four corner" weighing of our rig.  That is a little bit less, about 500 pounds, than our Sprinter based Class C weighed on a CAT Scale.

Diesel resale?  Been their, done that...  With a M-B Sprinter and Ford diesel trucks, and SUV's, back when we had big travel trailers.  In my experience the resale value of a diesel is no better than a gas engine when you factor in the additional purchase price.  Sure you get more trade in but you paid more to begin with...in my experience it was effectively a wash in every deal.   As for the mileage not counting on a diesel it certainly does count around here!

In most Class B's you aren't going to have an engine choice.  Any Sprinter based unit, currently the majority of Class B's, will be a diesel.  However in some Ford Transit based B's, like the Coachmen Crossfit, you can spec either engine.  Same thing with most of the small Forest River Class C's like ours.  That is the nice thing about the current RV market, everyone gets to choose what works best for them!

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43 minutes ago, RedLdr1 said:

The Sprinter 3500 and Transit 350HD are direct competitors and I've owned both...  Here is my take on the issue:

I used a proforma spreadsheet to compare the two engine options when purchasing our TS. I looked at the following items:

Initial cost of the diesel engine over the base gas engine in the purchase price.  In the case of our Transit it is about a $6K option for the diesel.  Gasoline wins this round.

Maintenance costs of the diesel versus the gasoline engine.  I pay around $50 for a oil change on my Ford every 7,500 miles, or every six months.  A Sprinter may be at 10K miles but how much is an oil change?  I can't even buy the M-B spec oil necessary for what I pay for the complete service.  Plus I don't have any diesel filters to purchase.  Gasoline wins again.

The MPG of the diesel versus gas.  Our MBS, when it ran :rolleyes:, didn't do bad at 16-17MPG.  The Transit is getting mid 14's in comparison.  Now add in the extra cost per gallon of diesel, and DEF, over gas.  The fuel price per mile was very close...so close I would never see any payback worth discussing.  Right now around here diesel is running around $2.99 a gallon, gas is $2.49.  Diesel cost per mile at 17MPG divided in to $2.99 a gallon is 17.5 cents per mile.  Gas cost per mile at 14.5MPG divided in to $2.49 a gallon is 17.1 cents per mile.   And a gas engine doesn't need DEF.  Even so this round is close enough I called it a tie...

Collectively those three items told me it did not make financial $en$e to "upgrade" to the optional diesel when we ordered our TS.

Power?  I loose on torque...  Here are the posted numbers: 

M-B Sprinter 3.0L V-6  Diesel:  188 HP and 325 ft-lbs of torque.

Ford Transit  3.2L I-5 Diesel: 185 horsepower and 350 lb.-ft. of torque.

Ford Transit 3.7L Gasoline:  275 horsepower and 260 lb.-ft. of torque.

My 3.7L gas V-6 runs great and doesn't have any "power" issues..at least the way I drive.  I've driven I-75 thru TN and KY both ways and the cruise held 62MPH just fine through the mountains.  No, it isn't the Rockies...but it isn't flat either.  I admit it did down shift in to fifth gear on some of the longer steep grades.  Not bad considering that our TS weighed in right at 10,000 pounds when I had the RVSEF do a "four corner" weighing of our rig.  That is a little bit less, about 500 pounds, than our Sprinter based Class C weighed on a CAT Scale.

Diesel resale?  Been their, done that...  With a M-B Sprinter and Ford diesel trucks, and SUV's, back when we had big travel trailers.  In my experience the resale value of a diesel is no better than a gas engine when you factor in the additional purchase price.  Sure you get more trade in but you paid more to begin with...in my experience it was effectively a wash in every deal.   As for the mileage not counting on a diesel it certainly does count around here!

In most Class B's you aren't going to have an engine choice.  Any Sprinter based unit, currently the majority of Class B's, will be a diesel.  However in some Ford Transit based B's, like the Coachmen Crossfit, you can spec either engine.  Same thing with most of the small Forest River Class C's like ours.  That is the nice thing about the current RV market, everyone gets to choose what works best for them!

Thanks Wayne, as you know, I purchased my Roadtrek RS Adventurous second hand from a recently trade at a dealership.... Here's the link to the NADA RV guide.... diesel miles are NOT required for value... see this below, 

http://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2012/Roadtrek/RS-Adventurous-Sprinter/6012700

Your Forrest River certainly has more sleeping quarters than my rig.... enjoy....

Your absolutely correct, choices...

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Of course the Forrest River is a Class C... not a Class B....

I think that Class B+ is a marketing gimmick....

When we purchased our Roadtrek... I test drove a Winnebago Navion and Fuse.. both were larger vehicles... with the big box in the back and overhang for bunk beds... driving dynamics didn't appeal to me...

Again, choice is good... and your specific needs...

Yes, we're in California.. more mountains... And, we've taken it through the Rockies... no problem with power...this thing just goes everywhere easily and doesn't slow down... 

You're right on oil changes...in fact, everything is more expensive on the Mercedes Benz.... I call the service advisors at Mercedes..." Dr. Feel Good"....😀😀😀.  They ply you with a fancy lounge, cappuccino's and croissants... you think that's cheap??? NO, it's not.. you're paying for it.....On the other hand, I love the way it drives.. there's a long service interval between those visits... 

Yes, it's probably more expensive to maintain... BUT, I drove the 3.2 Ford Transit diesel... at least in my opinion, the 5 cylinder engine is not as responsive or smooth despite the specifications above-mentioned...you might have thought that the 3.2 would have more oomph...it didn't.. the extra large box in the back, with the wind drag and unbalanced swaying from not being directly over the wheels...( Back dual wheels on the Navion and Fuse) were slightly inset from the overhang of the coach. 

... I don't like 5 cylinder vehicles.... Not as balanced... just me.  And much noiser than the 6 cylinder 3 litre MB... Again, choices....

Finally, the finishing touches and details inside our Roadtrek RS Adventurous really made the Ford Transit and Winnebago Navion look cheap... didn't like that....

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15 hours ago, MWeiner said:

Of course the Forrest River is a Class C... not a Class B....

I think that Class B+ is a marketing gimmick....

I agree, B+ was  popular "sub-class" in the late 90's early 2000's then it pretty much disappeared.  Now I'm seeing it more again...  I see all RV marketing as a gimmick in a lot of ways.  Go look at a higher end Class C and you'll find the same appliances that are in a low end model.  I like to mention that to a sales person and watch them stutter.  And a Ford E450 cutaway chassis, Chevy 4500,  or a Sprinter cutaway, is the same commercial chassis no matter how much lipstick, like wood dash kits and ultra leather seats, that RV manufacturers put on it...

15 hours ago, MWeiner said:

When we purchased our Roadtrek... I test drove a Winnebago Navion and Fuse.. both were larger vehicles... with the big box in the back and overhang for bunk beds... driving dynamics didn't appeal to me...

We weren't impressed with the small Winnies either...  They did feel a bit loose to say the least.  But there are a load of RV suspension enhancements advertised, for every Class and chassis, so I suspect many manufacturers would rather sell on "bling" than substance.   Those of us who do care end up doing suspension mods...:rolleyes:

15 hours ago, MWeiner said:

Yes, it's probably more expensive to maintain... BUT, I drove the 3.2 Ford Transit diesel... at least in my opinion, the 5 cylinder engine is not as responsive or smooth despite the specifications above-mentioned...you might have thought that the 3.2 would have more oomph...it didn't.. the extra large box in the back, with the wind drag and unbalanced swaying from not being directly over the wheels...( Back dual wheels on the Navion and Fuse) were slightly inset from the overhang of the coach. 

... I don't like 5 cylinder vehicles.... Not as balanced... just me.  And much noiser than the 6 cylinder 3 litre MB... Again, choices....

The Ford diesel would have been a very hard sell, even if the numbers had made sense for me, as I don't like I-5s' either.  I remember too many of them that just didn't work out very well...  Interestingly enough the new 2018 F-150 diesel Ford just announced is a V-6...not the I-5.  Hmm....:huh:

15 hours ago, MWeiner said:

Finally, the finishing touches and details inside our Roadtrek RS Adventurous really made the Ford Transit and Winnebago Navion look cheap... didn't like that....

There you go buying that "bling"!  ;):lol:   Every time my wife looks at the interiors of a Airstream Class B she comments on it.  I'm going to buy 5 gallons of polyurethane and dip my interior in it to give it that "bling"...:lol:  

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16 hours ago, manholt said:

Wayne. nice floor plan & a real shower! :)

Thanks, we like it..:).  Downsizing from a 33 foot big "C",  with four slide outs, was a bit of a challenge but it works well for what we want.  For the first time ever I have more CCC ( ~2,300 pounds)  than cargo space!   All of our concerns revolve around hot water, see my post HERE,  but since we don't boondock it is an acceptable trade off... 

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1 hour ago, RedLdr1 said:

I agree, B+ was  popular "sub-class" in the late 90's early 2000's then it pretty much disappeared.  Now I'm seeing it more again...  I see all RV marketing as a gimmick in a lot of ways.  Go look at a higher end Class C and you'll find the same appliances that are in a low end model.  I like to mention that to a sales person and watch them stutter.  And a Ford E450 cutaway chassis, Chevy 4500,  or a Sprinter cutaway, is the same commercial chassis no matter how much lipstick, like wood dash kits and ultra leather seats, that RV manufacturers put on it...

We weren't impressed with the small Winnies either...  They did feel a bit loose to say the least.  But there are a load of RV suspension enhancements advertised, for every Class and chassis, so I suspect many manufacturers would rather sell on "bling" than substance.   Those of us who do care end up doing suspension mods...:rolleyes:

The Ford diesel would have been a very hard sell, even if the numbers had made sense for me, as I don't like I-5s' either.  I remember too many of them that just didn't work out very well...  Interestingly enough the new 2018 F-150 diesel Ford just announced is a V-6...not the I-5.  Hmm....:huh:

There you go buying that "bling"!  ;):lol:   Every time my wife looks at the interiors of a Airstream Class B she comments on it.  I'm going to buy 5 gallons of polyurethane and dip my interior in it to give it that "bling"...:lol:  

You wrote, 

There you go buying that "bling"!  ;):lol:   Every time my wife looks at the interiors of a Airstream Class B she comments on it.  I'm going to buy 5 gallons of polyurethane and dip my interior in it to give it that "bling"...:lol:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne, maybe it's "bling" as you stated, but,  there's something nice about real "cherry wood" finishes and the nicely upholstered ceiling and interiors of the coach we purchased... when we shopped a number of Class C's, like the Navion and Fuse, I noticed that the cupboards were made of laminate or cheap particle board and hinges that were not well designed... resulting in more rattling while underway.... Now, the nature of RVs will lend themselves to more noises and rattle than most cars, but, I sure do care about the substance of the materials used long term...

There's a pretty good reason why people care about how this is done and WHY they are impressed by the details in an Airstream or my unit... please remember that the Winnebago Navion or View (same model) is a Mercedes Benz diesel that was cutaway and they built an entire body on the back end....in order to do that, they had to cut corners on the interior finishes on the interior of the coach.    A brand new Winnebago Navion is actually less money than my Class B Roadtrek.... $125,000 vs. $150,000... rough numbers....  And, all the money for the interior of the Roadtrek was spent on customizing the inside of the van...no money spent on creating a new box...so, it stands to reason why they put more emphasis on the interior details and design...  The ceiling of both the Navion and Fuse were MUCH less finished than that of Roadtrek..... details matter...

Heck, I probably have as much money in my 5 year old Roadtrek as you paid brand new for your coach??   I didn't want to take the super depreciation schedule in the first three to four years... besides we purchased it with only 26,000 miles.. just getting started to break in ...

Did I like some features of the larger ones...YES... liked the bathrooms much better..and the extra space.. I noticed that even on the Fuse model with the twins, the under chassis space was not as good as the Navion or your Forrest River.. I really don't need the extra bunk beds..or storage...like you, we are NOT full timers and if I need more space, I can always go home...

Besides the test drive, handling and the fact that I wasn't impressed by the inline 5 cylinder, as you agreed... the Roadtrek RS was quieter, smoother, and handled better than either the Navion or Fuse... actually the Fuse didn't impress me at all and I could have purchased this for less money than the 5 year old Roadtrek....YES.. it's true.... Also, the salesman was really pushing me towards the FUSE... It had twin beds.. could be converted..a big hassle.. BUT, the instability,  Ford Transit diesel, inline 5 cylinder, noisy, cramped driving position with protruding dashboard and poor handling was a complete deal breaker for me..

The final decision came when the salesman for both the Navion and Fuse told me that the "roofs" of the brand new coaches, Navion and Fuse were "guaranteed" for 10 years... NOW, that sounds great.... EXCEPT, he went on to CLARIFY that this didn't cover the SEAMS! WTF....  

The Roadtrek RS has a complete metal roof with rubber around the gaskets for the penetrations just like you would find on a car with a sunroof... and they didn't build a separate box on top of the chassis.... Now, it's possible to develop a leak anywhere... but, its NOT as likely as a complete fiberglass cap with seams running all over the place....  Bottom line for me, the Class B van conversion was going to be less maintenance...

If I don't like driving a vehicle,  what's the point?? Maybe others would think it's OK, I didn't...

I don't believe in making "suspension modifications" as you stated above... maybe a anti sway bar...?? Then , I would have to be convinced it was a good idea...the vehicle should be designed and perfected at the factory and ready for driving....

One thing I have noticed about camping.. it's nicer to be boon docking in a BLM land, for peace and quiet.... campgrounds and RV parks can be quite noisy and the camp fires with smoke permeating into your site can be really annoying...it's much quieter at home and I can be away from all this...

As for your "not boon docking"...you probably could go out for a weekend and be fine... just have to wait for your water heater to kick back in .  One of the best and memorable places we stayed was a BLM land near Arches National Park...not many amenities, but serene .... here's a picture.. below Hittle Bottom  .. Only a few people there when we visited..cleanest pit toilets we've ever seen and nice park hosts as well....since we're over 62..with the senior park pass...it was only $7.50 per night...Lots of beautiful scenery there...highly recommend....

I know this is quite a distance from your location...are you planning on taking trips all over the USA in your rig???? I noticed that you mentioned only "touring"....We tour as well, but, that 12,000 miles trip was a long distance.... Were planning shorter trips for a while... that was a lot of driving....

Do you have solar panels on your rig????  You can be quite self contained with solar...We are using a Zamp Solar system on our rig with two AGM batteries , 6 volt in series...works very well...

 

IMG_20170925_185643.jpg

IMG_20170926_103329.jpg

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2 hours ago, MWeiner said:

Wayne, maybe it's "bling" as you stated, but,  there's something nice about real "cherry wood" finishes and the nicely upholstered ceiling and interiors of the coach we purchased... when we shopped a number of Class C's, like the Navion and Fuse, I noticed that the cupboards were made of laminate or cheap particle board and hinges that were not well designed... resulting in more rattling while underway.... Now, the nature of RVs will lend themselves to more noises and rattle than most cars, but, I sure do care about the substance of the materials used long term...

There's a pretty good reason why people care about how this is done and WHY they are impressed by the details in an Airstream or my unit... please remember that the Winnebago Navion or View (same model) is a Mercedes Benz diesel that was cutaway and they built an entire body on the back end....in order to do that, they had to cut corners on the interior finishes on the interior of the coach.   

"Cut Corners" not necessarily....  The next time you are at a RV dealer or show check out an Dynamax Isata 3 M-B Sprinter Class C.  They are easily as nice as any Class B on the market....and we've looked at all of them.  Now to get that level of fit and finish you pay around $20-30K more than for the exact same M-B chassis, with the same floor plan, as on a Sunseeker / Forester MBS just like we owned.  The higher end fit and finish of a Dynamax is all you're buying along with a second year of warranty.   I won't toss that much money in to any depreciating asset just for appearance.  That's the same reason I usually drive Fords instead of Lincolns....;)

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Heck, I probably have as much money in my 5 year old Roadtrek as you paid brand new for your coach??   I didn't want to take the super depreciation schedule in the first three to four years... besides we purchased it with only 26,000 miles.. just getting started to break in ...

You've already spent way more...including my mods.  My MSRP was just over $100K, with every option except the diesel, and I didn't pay nearly that amount.   Here if you aren't getting at least 20-25% off MSRP you aren't trying...

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The final decision came when the salesman for both the Navion and Fuse told me that the "roofs" of the brand new coaches, Navion and Fuse were "guaranteed" for 10 years... NOW, that sounds great.... EXCEPT, he went on to CLARIFY that this didn't cover the SEAMS! WTF....  

The Roadtrek RS has a complete metal roof with rubber around the gaskets for the penetrations just like you would find on a car with a sunroof... and they didn't build a separate box on top of the chassis.... Now, it's possible to develop a leak anywhere... but, its NOT as likely as a complete fiberglass cap with seams running all over the place....  Bottom line for me, the Class B van conversion was going to be less maintenance...

New Forest River Class C motor homes come standard with a one piece fiberglass roof.  The only roof seams are at the front and rear caps.  Those do require annual maintenance checks and may require re-caulking.   But I can always go to one of the vendors in the FMCA magazine, like RVRoof.com, and have a spray on roof added on top of the existing roof that is warranted against leaks and requires zero maintenance.  

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I don't believe in making "suspension modifications" as you stated above... maybe a anti sway bar...?? Then , I would have to be convinced it was a good idea...the vehicle should be designed and perfected at the factory and ready for driving....

What should be and what is are often two very different things.  M-B delivered a commercial cargo van that RoadTrek modified.  The suspension on a Sprinter from the factory is designed as a compromise that needs to handle various load, and road, conditions.   How much does you unit weigh when fully loaded?  How close to the 11,030 pound GVWR are you?   Knowing those two answers will help when considering any upgrades.

Just upgrading the stock shocks can make a huge difference in comfort and handling.  Adding a Hellwig rear sway bar is something most Sprinter based rigs can benefit from as well.  The Hellwig provides so much improvement that Forest River now adds it on all their Sprinters our MBS was one of the first to have it standard.  Sumo Springs are another very popular addition for Class C conversions.

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One thing I have noticed about camping.. it's nicer to be boon docking in a BLM land, for peace and quiet.... campgrounds and RV parks can be quite noisy and the camp fires with smoke permeating into your site can be really annoying...it's much quieter at home and I can be away from all this...

As for your "not boon docking"...you probably could go out for a weekend and be fine... just have to wait for your water heater to kick back in .  One of the best and memorable places we stayed was a BLM land near Arches National Park...not many amenities, but serene .... here's a picture.. below Hittle Bottom  .. Only a few people there when we visited..cleanest pit toilets we've ever seen and nice park hosts as well....since we're over 62..with the senior park pass...it was only $7.50 per night...Lots of beautiful scenery there...highly recommend....

We've boon docked in the past...and I agree it is much more peaceful.   Here in the southeast it isn't as readily available as out west...unless you consider BLM / COE type campgrounds to be boon docking...I don't.  The TS has a 35 gallon fresh water tank, a 30 gallon grey tank, and a 30 gallon black tank so cold water isn't an issue.  And we have a 9.8 gallon LP tank so if we want to boon dock it is "doable"...

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I know this is quite a distance from your location...are you planning on taking trips all over the USA in your rig???? I noticed that you mentioned only "touring"....We tour as well, but, that 12,000 miles trip was a long distance.... Were planning shorter trips for a while... that was a lot of driving....

We're planning a trip to Alaska and looking at Eastern Canada as well...  In the mean time we stay fairly active with the Forest River Owners Group (FROG) Rallies and non-group solo activities...

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Do you have solar panels on your rig????  You can be quite self contained with solar...We are using a Zamp Solar system on our rig with two AGM batteries , 6 volt in series...works very well..

We are "solar ready"... Our rig can standard with a Zamp interface but from what I've read that doesn't mean much.  That is on my list to check out before Alaska...  What are you doing?

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Here's another reason diesels are known for their longevity.. they use fuel that's actually a lubricant for the engine and operate at much lower RPMs... producing a lot of torque...so they don't have to work nearly as hard as their gasoline counterpart...

Unfortunately, a lot of people appear to be unaware of this and still apply the rules of mileage equally to gasoline and diesels when looking to purchase a vehicle on the secondary market...   This is a quote from the National Automobiles Dealer Association on the market value of diesels.... whenever you want to value your rig for sale be sure and remind prospective buyers that there's different rules and the source for this comes from experts ...NADA is certainly a respected source...

I'm sure that you want to get the biggest return on your investment and that's one of the reasons you paid extra for the diesel engine... It's certainly a premium.. 

I would think that it will likely give you the return and performance you expected. 

See below from NADA; 

"Mileage MAY be taken into consideration for gas engine only.
Enter Mileage: 

(DO NOT use for diesel engines"

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