Changing Fuel Filter, Water Separator on CAT engine

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

The Cat rep is who told me to using 19 qts is ok. He said it should stop oil spotting on my toad.

My serial # prefix is CKM and it clearly states 22 qts - but that's what the CAT rep at 877-777-3126 said.

My question is - 19 or 22?

Jim

[wolfe10]

Brett,

The Cat rep is who told me to using 19 qts is ok. He said it should stop oil spotting on my toad.

My serial # prefix is CKM and it clearly states 22 qts - but that's what the CAT rep at 877-777-3126 said.

My question is - 19 or 22?

Jim

Jim,

Probably not as much difference as you suspect (between 19 and 22qts).

The quantities in my post above were taken from the latest Caterpillar document and shows 22 quart capacity (including oil filter).

BUT, that quantity is followed by this advice: Do NOT add oil until the oil level falls to the ADD mark (on a calibrated dipstick). Said another way, do not add oil if it shows down a quart. Each engine will seek its "proper" oil level and throw any "extra" oil out the crankcase breather.

Also, only check the oil (any large diesel engine) after the engine has sat for at least an hour-- even better overnight so the oil will all have drained back to the crankcase.

Did you get the fuel system primed up-- what was wrong?

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

Diesel Doug came out and said it was the transfer pump.

So I went to Dallas and got a new one - and also got all the parts to add a secondary filter with primer.

(I will give you the current prices later for the secondary filter parts - the ones in the CATRV file are outdated and low.)

Diesel Doug(the mobile diesel mechanic) will come back when it gets a little warmer - maybe Thursday.

I'll keep you posted.

Regarding the oil capacity - OK I'm set on 22 qts.

Should I do the dip stick calibration?

Jim

[wolfe10]

Brett,

Diesel Doug came out and said it was the transfer pump.

So I went to Dallas and got a new one - and also got all the parts to add a secondary filter with primer.

(I will give you the current prices later for the secondary filter parts - the ones in the CATRV file are outdated and low.)

Should I do the dip stick calibration?

Jim

Yes, I am sure those prices are out of date-- they are more than 4 years old.

CALIBRATING THE ENGINE OIL DIP STICK

We continue to see questions about oil "consumption" and oil on radiators and toads on the FMCA Forum and other RV websites. It seems to be universal across all brands of diesel engines.

THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE IS AN OVERFILLED CRANKCASE. CALIBRATING THE ENGINE OIL DIP STICK TO ENSURE THE CORRECT OIL LEVEL IN THE PAN "FIXES" OVER 90% OF THESE PROBLEMS.

If you "think" your engine has an oil consumption problem, you are seeing oil mist on your toad or you just want to verify that yours is correct; you need to verify that you are using the correct amount of oil. Note: the quantities listed INCLUDE the oil filter and is the total amount of oil you put in when changing oil and filter.

Now, CALIBRATE THE DIP STICK. Since the same engines/dip sticks are used in many different applications with different angles of installation, do not ASSUME that the dip stick is correctly marked. Calibration costs $0.

At the next oil change, drain oil, remove old filter (as usual). Then install the drain plug and new oil filter and add the engine's correct oil capacity LESS THE NUMBER OF QUARTS you want between the "ADD" and "FULL" marks (let's say 2 quarts). So for an engine with 20 quart capacity you would add 18 quarts. Run the engine a few minutes, shut off and wait until oil has descended into the pan (at least 30 minutes and an hour is safer). Pull the dip stick and use a file or dremel tool to mark the oil level "ADD". Add the remaining two quarts, let the oil settle in the pan, pull the dipstick and mark this the "FULL" mark.

In many/most cases, you will find that your engine "throws out" the access oil and then "consumption" settles down to next to nothing. Put in the correct amount and your "consumption" issues may go away.

This applies to all ages (including brand new) of motorhomes and boats with every brand of engine.

Also, when checking the oil level with the dipstick it is safest to do it in the morning after the oil has had all night to flow back to the pan.

Do not add oil until the level reaches the ADD mark.

Finally, make a sticker to affix near oil fill: OIL CAPACITY INCLUDING FILTER: xx QUARTS.

Brett

[HarleyJones1]

Whatever happened with the problem jmgrisby was having with no engine start after fuel filter change? I read three pages of his saga and then it just ended.

[wolfe10]

It is my understanding that he had a diesel tech come out and diagnose the fuel lift pump as bad.

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

FYI - it has been too cold outside for anyone to work on replacing the transfer pump.

When the Mobile Diesel Mechanic returns, I'll let you know how it is going.

Jim

[wolfe10]

Thanks, Jim.

"Inquiring Minds Want To Know".

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

Well, I gave up on Diesel Doug - it was warm for a few days and he said he was too busy to come back!

So I had another Mobile Diesel Tech come out last week - He said the propane tank would have to be removed and the big metal plate must be removed too, before he could work on it. He said he would come back when I had removed the propane tank and metal plate.

So I called my Good Sams Roadside Emergency Service - I told them I did not know if they could tow my motorhome out of my driveway.

They sent out a towing wrecker and he did a good job of getting it out. (Should have done this from the start, but felt they couldn't tow it out my driveway- I was wrong!)

They towed it to Tyler to a truck repairplace that also works on RVs.

I talked to them today - They said the Transfer Pump is ok - it had an air lock!

They installed the second fuel filter with manual primer - and said I would not have this problem again!

So what caused the air lock?

How did they bleed the air out?

I'll ask those questions tomorrow when I go get my motorhome.

Hope CAT will take back the $215 Transfer Pump.

More later,

Jim

[wolfe10]

Jim,

As discussed throughout this thread, getting an air lock is not that difficult-- if the level of fuel is below the filter housing, it is easy to have that 30+ feet of fuel line all drain back to the tank-- leaving 30+ feet of air to be purged. With no manual primer pump (which some chassis builders left off to save a few $$, an air lock is difficult to purge.

A manual shut off at the primary filter housing intake (fuel tank side) would prevent this.

The new manual primer pump on the secondary filter will also allow you to easily bleed the air from the system.

Bottom line, this is not an uncommon problem, but one that can be easily prevented.

Let us know how they removed the air lock-- the common way is to slightly pressurize the fuel tank with compressed air while opening the bleed screw on the filter.

Glad you got it going-- now you and Willie Nelson can go back to singing "On The Road Again".

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

The air lock in my opinion, had to be between the fuel filter and the Transfer Pump.

I opened the outlet hose at filter and fuel poured out easily and continuously.

I assume the air lock occurred when I put air pressure into the fuel tank.

Seems they had to either bleed the line at Transfer Pump or keep cranking until air got out. Do you think lots of cranking would eventually clear out the air lock?

I will ask them when I get it tomorrow and report back.

Jim

[wolfe10]

Jim,

Let us know what they found and did.

And, applying air to the fuel tank inlet could not cause an air lock. The fuel pickup tube is near the bottom of the fuel tank. Slight air pressure in the tank would force fuel through the line to the filter.

The only way air could be forced through the line to the filter is if the fuel level in the tank were below the level of the pickup tube in the tank.

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

You may not recall, but when I put the new filter on - I spilled a lot out but kept going.

I think there was air in top of the filter because it was not full.

Also fuel drained out of the line that runs from the filter to the transfer pump.

That's what I think - but I'm just guessing.

jim

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

The repair place called and said they could not install the "second fuel filter with manual primer" because there is no room to put it between the transfer pump and the engine. They are now planning to install an "electric primer".

It should be ready next week.

I guess I will have some more parts to take back to CAT and FL.

Brett, since they didn't have to replace the Transfer Pump, my guess is that it was too much work to add the second filter (probably have to remove propane tank and metal plate).

Is the electric primer a good option? How is it an easier installation?

Jim

[wolfe10]

Jim,

Their answer makes no sense. The secondary fuel filter can be mounted anywhere.

On our coach from the factory, both primary and secondary filter with manual primer pump are mounted next to each other in a compartment behind the right wheel.

Said another way, the primary and secondary filter can be mounted ANYWHERE as long as this order is followed:

Fuel tank, primary filter/water separator, transfer pump (aka lift pump), secondary filter with manual primer pump, engine.

The only limiter on secondary filter location is how much custom hose you want to have made.

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

They could not get to the space between the Transfer Pump and engine.

Jim

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

I understand the Second Filter can be mounted anywhere - but I think they are saying that they can't access the space between the Transfer Pump and the engine to connect the second filter hoses.

Jim

[jmgrigsby]

Motorhome is still in repair shop - they had to order the electric primer pump.

Longer they keep it, the more it will cost to get it out.

jim

[jmgrigsby]

I picked up our motorhome today from the repair shop.

They used starting fluid and got it started(the Mobile Tech used ether and couldn't get it started and - the Transfer Pump that the Mobile Tech said was bad -They said it was ok, but it took a lot of time to get the air out.

After that - I asked them to install the second filter with the manual primer pump. Buy they could not get access to the area between the Transfer Pump and the engine because they said they would have to remove the propane tank and the metal heat shield - lots of work. So they installed the second filter with primer between the original fuel filter and the Transfer Pump. Guess what? It did not work. They removed it and ordered an electric fuel pump and installed it between the original filter and the Transfer Pump. They tested it and said it works. There is a on-off switch next the electric pump, you can hear it run - they said next time I change filters to turn this electric pump on for a few seconds, till you hear it stop pumping.

Brett, will this electric pump satisfactorily prime this thing?

Since the manual primer had fuel in it - I cannot return it. If anyone needs a second fuel filter and manual primer please send me a private email.

Oh, they said the air filter was dirty and replaced it. That was $292. To reconnect drive shaft was $60. Rest was adding and removing second filter and manual primer - then adding the electric primer. Spent about $1000.

I do not know if the original problem is solved - remember it had a tremendous loss of power on the way back from Branson. Everyone said try replacing the fuel filter first. So I hope that problem is solved.

Guess I will have to road test it. Oh one more thing - all 6 batteries are dead( the 2 engine and the 4 house batteries). They must have left the key on - hope they will take a charge, I'm connected to shore power.

That's all for now.

Jim

[wolfe10]

Jim,

I have no information on whether placing both fuel filters before the fuel lift pump will work satisfactorily. 100% of the applications I have seen have the same arrangement: fuel tank, primary fuel filter, lift pump, secondary fuel filter, engine.

It is a shame that your coach builder did not allow access to the top of the engine. That will sure add up the price of all work on the engine including/especially valve adjustment. Did you verify that there is no access through the bedroom or closet floor?

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Yes - they said no access from the bedroom floor other than the 12 x24 inch hole.

They said remove the propane tank and heat shield. The Mech at the shop yesterday said he did not like working on my MH - because everything is too tight.

Jim

[jmgrigsby]

Brett,

The original problem has not been fixed! No power! Please remember that on the way back from Branson, I noticed a tremendous loss of power. That's when I changed the fuel filter - hoping that would fix it.

I took the MH to a different place to get the House batteries checked - by the way - the batteries were bad, got 4 new House batteries and generator starts fine. But on the way back, I kept going slower and slower, with pedal on the floor.

Finally I could only go 35 mph and limped on home.

Would appreciate your thoughts, please.

I don't know if I should try to drive it that slow down the freeway to Truck/MH Repair Shop - about 40 miles from here.

FYI - I looked at the fuel filter - bottom bowl was clear, no trash.

jim

[wolfe10]

Jim,

Best advice when the most common cause of loss of performance (clogged fuel filter) is not the cause is to take it to a Caterpillar dealer. They deal with engine issues for a living. Far better than a truck shop that may deal with some engine issues, but also brakes, transmissions, suspensions, etc.

Brett

[jmgrigsby]

Noticed smoke along with low power.

Could it be an injector?

Tow truck on the way.

Jim

[wolfe10]

Jim,

It's not reasonable to speculate on the cause of smoking.

It could be a fuel system issue, or could be an air supply problem. Quite a few low power/smoking issues on diesels are caused by leaks in the intake system between the turbo, CAC and engine. Leaking Charge Air Coolers or even a loose hose clamp will not allow enough air to properly operate the engine.

Again, my suggestion, because it is a Caterpillar is to take it to a Caterpillar dealer. All they work on is engines like yours. And if it were a Cummins, I would say the same-- take it to a Cummins dealer.

Brett