Winter Use of 2000 Safari Zanzibar

[rrlowther]

Good Morning,

My Partner and I bought a 2000 Safari Zanzibar for use in our national consulting business. We are required by our contracts to be onsite for the last three weeks of our projects. Since we work year around we have realized that it's a very real possibility that we will have use our coach during colder months in northern states.

We have put a lot of money into our coach with various upgrades and equipment we need for the coach to act as our mobile office.

So here's the question. Typically, RV's are winterized for colder months and stored. We will need to use the coach during such times and we are wondering what is the best solution to accomplish this. We've looked at the Aqua Hot system but it seems very expensive.

We are attending a huge "sale" this weekend and are considering trading our coach, that we bough in April of 2011 in on something better suited. Are there options out there for our needs utilizing our existing coach or would that be cost prohibitive?

Looking forward to your thoughts and suggestions.

[tbutler]

Retrofitting your coach will be more difficult than just installing an Aqua-Hot. The primary concern with cold winter temperatures is your water system. This includes the gray and black water as well as the fresh water system. Look at your Safari and determine where the water lines run from incoming water supply (city water) to the fresh water tank and then to the various water outlets. The lines are the most vulnerable part of the system. Any retrofit you install will have to prevent those lines from freezing. If the lines are accessible, you can insulate them which will help and letting the faucets drip can also keep the water from freezing in the lines. If you are always in a park (sometimes hard to find open parks in winter), you can always leave the fresh water tank out of the system, drain it and don't refill it. The waste tanks also need to be protected. Again, in a campground, the gray water can be left open so no water is stored there. Conventional wisdom with black water is to leave it closed until near full and then dump so that tank needs protection from freezing.

Our motor home has a cold weather package that includes an electric heater in the compartment with the incoming water works. That heater also warms the compartment with the black and gray water tanks. The water pump and plumbing to the water heater as well as the distribution center for the water system is located in the same compartment with the inverter which heats that compartment. Beyond that, we leave faucets dripping at night on cold nights which protects the lines to the fixtures. We also open the cabinets below sinks to allow heated air to keep the lines under those cabinets warm. Our fresh water tank has a heating pad under the bottom of the tank to keep it warm enough to prevent freezing. The lines to and from the fresh water tank are all in basement compartments but they have no special heating to protect them. They are tucked up against the floor of the coach which should keep them above freezing. The electric heater and heating pad for the fresh water tank do require that we be plugged into shore power or use the generator for them to operate.

Beyond these protections for our water system, our coach also has thermal pane windows. We have a standard propane furnace which is sufficient to keep up with the heat loss. Insulation in the walls and ceiling is a concern as well as infiltration of outside air. All seals on doors, windows and slides should be carefully inspected and replaced if worn as these prevent the exchange of air from the outside. Given all these protections, I am always on edge when the temperature drops into the low 20's.

Many people who spend the winter permanently in a park will build shelters of some kind to seal the unit to the ground so that cold air moving under the coach is limited. I've seen custom cut siding fitted under the sides of coaches and some people use bales of straw or other materials to block air movement under the coach. This would help but for a three week stay that would be a lot of work to set up and take down.

I hope this gives you some idea of what areas need to be considered when making modifications or choosing another coach.

[rrlowther]

Thank you Tom.

We went to a show yesterday here in Denver. We spoke with one of the sales people we met when we were looking. Unfortunately, they didn't have anything in their inventory that worked for us. Essential their service manager told us we should be okay. I want to insulate the basement doors and try to tighten them up a bit and we're going to install a couple of heat packs at the water station and under the tanks. I'm going to install heat tape on the water lines for the refrigerator and ice maker as well as the water supply hose that connects to shore water.

They also suggested that we have a "T" connection installed on the propane tank so that we can rent a larger tank when parked for those three weeks. We're also going to purchase a couple of electric space heaters to use inside the coach and do some additional weatherization around the door and vents.

Any thoughts on where and what type of material I could use to install on the bay doors to assist with heat retention?

Thank you for your response! It was really helpful.

[tbutler]

I am surprised you didn't find any winter ready motor homes at a show in Denver. I guess most of the market is focused on using the wheels to escape the cold weather! It sounds like you have some good ideas working. We also use electric heaters for occasional warming in a room where we are. We never leave those heaters on when we are not in the motor home. The one I spoke of in the water compartment is installed so there is no danger it will overturn or overheat the surrounding materials. I would use a portable heater only where I could see it. Also, be sure your smoke detectors work.

For lining the inside of the basement compartment doors, I would use some kind of sheet Styrofoam. An inch of the dense closed cell Styrofoam adds about R-5 as I recall. You could glue it if you want it permanently installed or use Velcro tabs to attach it if you want to be able to remove it. I think I have seen some Styrofoam products that have a sticky surface so you just peel off a covering and attach it to a surface. Our doors have a one inch thick Styrofoam which is enclosed in a metal cover that fits just inside the compartment opening. If you are doing a permanent install, you might want to put some kind of hard surface such as paneling on the inner surface to protect the Styrofoam.

Camping world sells a kit for attaching an additional propane tank to your system. It has everything that you should need to easily connect and use a second tank with your present propane system. I have heard that it doesn't work for all propane installations so check with the staff at Camping World. I'd have them look at your system and show you how it attaches and have them reassure you that it will indeed work for you.

It would be interesting if you would touch base here with additional information as your winter experience continues. You might come up with some solutions that all of us could use! Good luck. Let's all hope for a mild winter.

[aztec7fan]

We live in Denver, and have cold weather camped several times. Our first trip of the year is in the 2nd week of March, and temps have been around 20 degrees or lower. I usually turn the furnace on and leave cabinets open near sinks and so far have never had any problems. A couple of times the water pump froze, but did not crack, so I now leave the light on in that compartment.

I plan on taking the coach skiing this winter, which will have much colder temps, in which case I will probably drain the water and use bottled water for the toilet and hand washing.

[rrlowther]

We live in Denver, and have cold weather camped several times. Our first trip of the year is in the 2nd week of March, and temps have been around 20 degrees or lower. I usually turn the furnace on and leave cabinets open near sinks and so far have never had any problems. A couple of times the water pump froze, but did not crack, so I now leave the light on in that compartment.

I plan on taking the coach skiing this winter, which will have much colder temps, in which case I will probably drain the water and use bottled water for the toilet and hand washing.

Hey there Chris, small world, we live in Denver too. I'm in the process of having heat tape and heater packs installed in the basement of our coach and the water station. We already have ducted heat in the basement but I just want to be extra careful. We are also having the water lines for the refrigerator and the water heater insulated along with heat tape. I just ordered a plug in heated water hose for supply.

I did learn today though, that rather then just leave the black and grey water tanks open, we will keep them closed and empty them once a day or so. The tanks are supposed to be heated (I'll be darn of I can see anything under there looks like heaters though), but they are located in the middle of the chaise between the basement and the floor of the coach. So I think with the heat packs they'll be fine. I'm also going to put RV anti-freeze in both tanks before each use. Then we're installing foam insulation on each of the bay doors for the basement. Hopefully, this will keep us nice and toasty without having to worry too much.

Thanks for your post.

R

[rrlowther]

UPDATE!

It turns out that the storage doors all have Styrofoam insulation already. We also discovered that there is a foam seal around each grove of each door. One of the of "boxes" that the ducts for the furnace connect to has a slide that covers an opening. So we can slide that open and get heated air into the basement.

We added a winter use kit to our Girard tankless water heater. As long as the water pump, (or the system has pressure) and propane are on we are okay.

We installed a water line for the ice maker, also with a heat trace on it.

We installed a very small ceramic disk heater into the water bay behind the panels. We tapped a romax 20AMP line, installed a junction box and added a GFI out let to plug the heater into. The heater is located in the water bay by the controls.

We drilled holes into the water control board so that we can reach in and turn the heater up or down and on and off. This also allows the heated air to travel throughout the water hoses and the tanks.

We found and filled all of the holes under the bus for the sewer tank drain. We used a heavy duty expandable foam for this. We also keep an extra can on the bus just in case some comes out while traveling.

All of that along with our electric heated water hose and we should be okay for cold weather use!

So, it appears that we have covered all of the bases. Along with using RV antifreeze in the grey and black water tanks should keep us from having any major issues. My only concern now is whether or not our hot water heater will keep up with the cold water coming in. I might just fill the fresh water holding tanks every few days instead of leaving the shore water on all the time.

Promised I'd update our progress. If you think we've missed something, by all means speak up!

And thank you for all of the great suggestions.

[aztec7fan]

One thing you haven't mentioned is how much driving you will need to do in the winter months? Will you need to travel in the mountains, or just around the front range?

The reason I ask is, have you purchased chains for the vehicle? As you know, we do get snow, but the storms in Denver usually don't require chains to drive around, except maybe once or twice a year. If you will be driving anywhere in the mountains or between Colorado Springs and Denver, I'd reccomend getting a set for your size tire, and some heavy duty grommets, or "spider bunjies". I have some for my coach, but haven't needed them yet.

Almost needed them to get out of a campground on Easter weekend this year when we woke up to 8" of snow.

[chucknewman]

rrlowther,

Our Canadian friends have a 2001 Zanzibar and the storage bay is very similar to our Serengeti. We have a thermostatically controlled heat exchanger in the bay, but I installed an electric cube heater with a "good" thermostat in storage for winter usage. When in a camp ground we have a fireplace electric heater in the living room, another cube heater in the bedroom, plus the one in storage bay; and we generally don't run the hydronic system in a camp ground. Electric is much more quiet and has kept us comfortable down to 12 degrees. More importantly, you may not need heat tape and pipe insulation. Our fresh water, gray, and black tanks plus plumbing and water pump, and dump valves are all exposed in the bay after I removed a couple thin carpet covered partitions -- permanently. If the power goes away or one of us wants a rather long shower, I just turn on the diesel furnace for endless hot water.

You stated "We have put a lot of money into our coach with various upgrades and equipment we need for the coach to act as our mobile office."

I recommend you keep what you have and your last post appears you have come to that conclusion.

If you're not members of Safari International, I urge you to join. Lots of information, knowledge, and background on the Safari line of coaches.

Safari International http://www.safari-international.org/

Chuck

[tbutler]

UPDATE!

Promised I'd update our progress. If you think we've missed something, by all means speak up!

And thank you for all of the great suggestions.

Thank you for continuing to keep us up-to-date on your decisions and progress. It sounds to me as though you have a very thorough plan to dealing with the cold weather. Everyone who participated in this discussion has added valuable insight. Having the final decisions in detail is valuable for everyone who comes to this discussion in the future.

[rrlowther]

One thing you haven't mentioned is how much driving you will need to do in the winter months? Will you need to travel in the mountains, or just around the front range?

The reason I ask is, have you purchased chains for the vehicle? As you know, we do get snow, but the storms in Denver usually don't require chains to drive around, except maybe once or twice a year. If you will be driving anywhere in the mountains or between Colorado Springs and Denver, I'd recommend getting a set for your size tire, and some heavy duty grommets, or "spider bunjies". I have some for my coach, but haven't needed them yet.

Almost needed them to get out of a campground on Easter weekend this year when we woke up to 8" of snow.

That's a really good point. I have no idea where to get chains for the tires. Can you make a suggestion?

[chucknewman]

rrlowther,

Having to make a trip to Oregon in January a couple years ago I purchased chains for our coach. I got them at a local truck shop where we lived. As I recall they were about $150. or more. Single tire chains, not duals. I'm too old to handle dual chains on a 40 ft motorhome in the snow. I've never purchased chains for the other coaches we've had over the years. My feeling was "avoid the snow and ice". And we did. Fortunately, we didn't have to use them on that trip. I was under pressure to be at a destination at a certain time -- in the winter. I later surmised "when you're retired, that is just nuts".

Some observations: I've put chains on little trucks and big trucks. They all had one thing in common; lots of room around the tire to install the chains. Particularly if you are thinking of using dual tire chains. Coaches don't have that much room inside the wheel wells. And just my single tire chains are heavy. I'm not saying it can't be done, but at my age as a Medicare recipient it's just easier to avoid the bad weather or wait it out in a CG or other location.

When we were into bus conversions I asked a tour bus driver how she put chains on her new MCI J series bus going over Donner Summit. She said if chains are required by DOT we don't go. The safety factors to her, the passengers, and liability just didn't make it feasible.

All that said, I realize it sounds like you guys still are working and are probably younger and in better shape. I hope. But keep in mind also that different states have different chain requirements. I have no idea about Colorado (or other states) but in California dual chains on dual rear tires are not required. What CA DOT does require (for motorhomes/buses) is to chain up one of the duals on each side, "preferably" the inner dual. Their language on their website. It means on the road one DOT worker or CHP officer may accept the outer dual, and at another location they may demand the inner dual be chained. Something you may want to research depending on where you plan to travel/work.

My chains fit our tires 255/70R-22.5. They are brand new. If you can wait, we will be in Colorado Springs most of November 2011 to visit family. I'll give you new single tire chains and bungees for $60. For me they just take up space in the bay and are difficult for me to move around.

Chuck

[aztec7fan]

That's a really good point. I have no idea where to get chains for the tires. Can you make a suggestion?

I got my set of chains in Grand Junction before I had to make a trip through the tunnel in the winter for about $120.00 (I didn't have to use them). I just checked with O'Riely Auto parts in Denver and they have a set for my tires (225 70 R19.5) for $70.00. Here's their info:

5861 North Broadway

Denver, CO 80216

(303) 298-9124

Other auto parts places should have them as well.

As far as the previous post goes, you may have seen the signs entering the mountains around here that say "illegal to proceed without required equipment (chains) Sept-May." I don't know if they are required on motor homes, but I wouldn't want to be un-prepared.

[rrlowther]

Thanks for the great feed back guys. I'm going to get a full set of chains this week and keep them on the bus just in case. Unfortunately we don't have the option of putting trips off until the weather is better. We use our coach for work. We have to be there when we have to be there. Appreciate all the good info!