Engine Brake Intermittent Cummins ISL 425

[MichaelS]

The saga of my intermittent Engine Brake continues. I have replaced the OEM switch that CC install for Hi-Off-Lo at the dash, I have checked out all the connections in the bay under the driver and have isolated the Brakeswitch.com box out of the circuit, but no solution so far; except I now have a definitive repeatable time/distance frame. I know I can drive about 20 miles or so and then the engine brake starts to become intermittent for a couple of times then ceases completely (in either Lo or Hi setting). It does not resume after engine restart except after an undetermined period of the engine being off. After it fails the light at the OEM switch continues to work when the accelerator is released and Hi or Lo are selected, suggesting that the problem is after the switch.

I have now found a relay in the mix, in the drivers bay, it is a 301-1C-S-R1 12vdc, a simple plug and play black unit, it is in one of the Bussman fuse boxes along with other relays. I have ordered a replacement.

One of my issues is that to test any change requires an hour or so round trip to confirm.

I have been unable to find any advice to confirm that a relay could fail in this way; i.e. work for a short period then get stuck, maybe due to heat or whatever which clears itself after cooling down. I do not know how to test the original relay to confirm if it is the cause.

Anyone have any clues or experience with relay failure?

Michael

2008 CC Allure

[dickandlois]

Hi Michael,

Relays can act up, but if the problem is time related, you mentioned needing to drive 20 miles or so makes it highly unlikely.

Many of the relays used in the buss electrical box are the same number, you might try to switch 2 of them around.

The fact that the problem comes and goes, is related to driving time, sounds to me like a intermittent component or a cold solder connection. There are other electrical components that can become temperature sensitive also.

There could be a code set in the ECM, but some of them are low level codes meaning the problem the code represent a low level problem and does not directly involve engine performance.

You could have the ECM run on scanner to see if there are any codes stored.

Question-Its a little off form your issue, but are there any other intermittent issues, like strange gauge readings accruing at all no mater how unrelated they might appear.

Hope the weather has not been as bad lately, in the country of some of my four fathers.

Rich.

[MichaelS]

Rich, I have no codes in the ECM other than this which I debated on the Silverleaf forum:-

Hi Michael,

Relays can act up, but if the problem is time related, you mentioned needing to drive 20 miles or so makes it highly unlikely.

Many of the relays used in the buss electrical box are the same number, you might try to switch 2 of them around.

The fact that the problem comes and goes, is related to driving time, sounds to me like a intermittent component or a cold solder connection. There are other electrical components that can become temperature sensitive also.

There could be a code set in the ECM, but some of them are low level codes meaning the problem the code represent a low level problem and does not directly involve engine performance.

You could have the ECM run on scanner to see if there are any codes stored.

Question-Its a little off form your issue, but are there any other intermittent issues, like strange gauge readings accruing at all no mater how unrelated they might appear.

Hope the weather has not been as bad lately, in the country of some of my four fathers.

Rich.

Cummins Technicians are often only able to locate the
Cummins Engine Codes, not the SAE Engine Codes which their ECM also generates.
SAE Codes are the Codes that the SilverLeaf Products read...

Conferring with Cummins "Experts", the SAE Code
"251-2-1" is Cummins Code:

319 - Maintenance : Real Time Clock Power Interrupt
- Data Erratic, Intermittent, or Incorrect.

I understand this is a transient code, but could it be an issue with my engine brake?

The only strange issue is that I have on 2 occassions had my HWH LCD screen go off, (I have the full active air system with large disply) the system is still working but I have to do a HWH reset to get it back up.

I have 2 new relays in the mail to me (exact same ones) so I will wait for them to arrive and do a test. This relay is labeled in the bussman box as "Engine Brake Load Relay" I have tested it and it does seem fine, but I do not know about in use as I have only just found this relay and have not been out for a spin to get a failure then pull it and read it.

So if any of this ramble gives a clue I look forward to hearing.

By the way, if it were an ECM problem would it be reasonable to say that there would be a fault code specific to the engine brake? And its absence suggests an OEM issue?

Regards

Michael

2008 Allure

[dickandlois]

Thanks for the information. I do not see anything that stands out, but I'm going to go out of the box a little. But first could you post how many miles on it. Want to get a base line for what I'm pondering.

That 319 code pops up on a number of the coach's as I look at the log history on one or two of the threads on the web page.

One more thing, have you lubricated the engine brake's mechanical assembly, if your engine system has a maintenance schedule listed for that ?

I have to look in my files and see if I have the Cummings ECM codes for your Engine on file. With the newer engines and ECM's the code list is getting rather long. If I have a list, I will go line by line to see if there is any code listed of any engine brake issues as time allows.

In regards to the ECM storing a code, a little ify, There should e other issues if the ECM is being temperamental.

I'm personally leaning towards some noise in or on the 12 volt chassis power lines / bus and that can be a real hard one to find. Do you have an oscilloscope by chance / the only way to see nasty noise spicks and they can come and go with temperature changes.

Oh ! thanks for the little tip on the LCD screen, Will through that into the mix. The little things can make for a nasty brew.

NOTE ! ECM Code,243='s isl Engine Brake Supply Circuit issue on engine up to 2003 year. Now can I find one for your model year >>???

Rich.

NOTE !

Engine Brake Codes

2362 Engine Brake Actuator Circuit Number 1 - Voltage Below Normal or Shorted to Low Source

2363 Engine Brake Actuator Circuit Number 2 - Voltage Below Normal or Shorted to Low Source

2366 Engine Brake Actuator Circuit Number 1 - Voltage Above Normal or Shorted to High Source

2367 Engine Brake Actuator Circuit Number 2 - Voltage Above Normal or Shorted to High Source

None of these codes present, so one needs to look at mechanical or power line corruption. Connections and grounds. Something in the air cylinder valve link or valve.

[MichaelS]

Rich,

Thanks, the coach is a Country Coach Allure, Sunset Bay, 2008, with Cummins ISL 425. I am not sure if it has a mechanical side to the engine brake I will check it out today.

Michael

[dickandlois]

Michael, I have been checking into the codes. The interesting thing is that the 251-2-1 ASE-Cummings code looks like 319 code from Silverleaf are one in the same. Real time Clock error.

The code readers look at the same problem and interpret then with different numbers.

251 =s PID / SID code

2 =s FMI Code

319 =s Eaton Code from what I have found.

Everyone is listed as a real time clock error. looks like you get the same error, but with a different number depending on what or who's equipment one uses to read them.

I hope someone can post some feedback and clear the muddy waters on this. I'm sure scratching my head. Got my head in front of the fan on this one.

Rich.

[dickandlois]

Michael,

Looking into the Engine brake information. I learned a little more. Do you have an engine brake range switch, that sets the amount of braking you can get from the engine?

The engine brake system can be tied into the ABS system. If so then there are 2 relays in the system. K2-2 for the ABS line to control the engine brake and Relay K100 controlled by the brake peddle. A real wiring nightmare in some respects.

Rich.

[MichaelS]

Rich,

Yes I do have a range switch, Hi, off, Lo.

I am now at the end of my capabilities, i have changed the "Engine Brake Load" relay but will not be able to test this until Thursday when I take the coach in for a service, and get them to find the problem if the relay has not fixed it!

Thanks for your input; the garage have her for 10 days or so whilst I go skiing so I will report back later in the month!

Michael

[MichaelS]

SOLVED, I hope!

As previously mentioned I found a relay in the front drivers bay, which was labeled on the inside of the lid as "engine brake load relay". This relay is not described on any of my schematics, especially the page relating to the engine brake!! Although it is mentioned in the wiring list relative to about 5 or 6 wires.

I was able to test the replacement this morning and did well over the 20-30 miles which would have previously seen the engine brake fail, and it continued to work fine. Not only that but I am now able to feel the difference between Hi and Lo which frankly have have been unable to determine in the 18 month I have owned the coach!

So what was causing this relay to give up after a period in use or indeed what its function is specifically I have not a clue. But I hope this post will provide some insite (no pun intended on Cummins software) for anyone with a similar scenario.

Michael
2008 Allure 31683