How Difficult To Choose

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Hello Guys,

I am back once again as I was initially of the idea to address myself to a bus conversion but at the end there too many things you have to keep in mind with such complicated vehicle compared to the time I would use it along the year. It does not worth.

However, I do not give up and as I have been looking at Diesel Pushers for a while, I think I might have found some good reference on the market: the Fleetwood Discovery 39V, Holiday Rambler Endeavor 40SFT, Monaco Diplomat 40SFT. The last 2 are very similar and all of them have the full wall slide in common and this is the main reason why I am looking at those. They are roomy just like a house and I can spend time with my family having the feeling as if I were at home.

One major difference is that as I am looking at used coaches the discovery started with its first full wall slide in 2006 with the Discovery while HR and Monaco got them starting from 2007 models and this makes the first difference in pricing and impact on the Budget.

For sure, from chassis and engine point of view both Endeavor and Diplomat are more advanced rather than Discovery but is that difference that important when you go up and down to the hills or mountains? In other words is the Power Bridge Chassis fair enough compared to the Roadmaster RR8R? Are the differences between them like an abyss or what? I appreciate some comment about that.

Another point is the differences between Discovery floorplan and that of the other 2 as these ones are just the same. It seems to me that Discovery is somehow more roomy than the other 2 but perhaps this is just because of bathroom design differences.

Very important is the fact that I have been hearing people talking alternatively good and bad about the Discovery while I have not heard nothing too much bad with regards to 2007 Endeavor or Diplomat. For exemple, I read about discoverys with jack hoses backwards, slides tilting (think about doing this with a full wall slide), leaking from the roof or in the bathroom, etc. Do you think this is due to the fact that Fleetwood has/had a poor Quality Control or it is just that the average quality of the Discovery is not as affordable as it should be for such class of RV? Or may be these are structural problems already sorted by Fleetwood in 2006 or 2007? I would be grateful to konw your comments about that too.

Thank you very much for any help.

Steve

[wolfe10]

Steve,

Narrowing down the choices within Class A coaches can indeed be almost overwhelming.

Engines: A Caterpillar, Cummins or DD engine is BASICALLY the same in any coach. An exception that the Cummins ISL can be ordered with an engine compression brake or exhaust brake.

And HP's within a given engine family can also vary, particularly in older model coaches (for example the Caterpillar 3126 was offered in 275, 300 and 330 HP versions).

Transmissions: This is one of the few areas where there aren't a lot of variations except in extreme high HP rigs (like Caterpillar C15 and Cummins ISX).

All others use Allison 6 speed transmissions, with the size/robustness of the transmission dictated by engine HP and torque. So 6 speed is NOT a term that will tell you what transmission you are looking at, as the Allison 1000, 2000, 3000 and 4000 are all 6 speeds. The 3000 is the normal transmission in 300-400 HP coaches, with the 4000 being used with larger engines.

Suspensions: There are quite a lot of variations here, ranging all the way from leaf spring, 4 air bag and 8 air bag. Longer/heavier coaches often have tag axles to carry the extra weight.

Floor plans: Here, you are on your own, as things important to you may be the opposite of what appeals to others-- same as in a stick home. Best advice is to SHOP. Make notes of what you like and don't like.

Quality: Probably the most difficult to pin down, as most will show brand loyalty and almost always tell you THEIR choice is the BEST. My initial recommendation is to look at 10-15 year old examples from manufacturers on your short list. You WILL see a difference in quality, as solid wood cabinets hold up better than vinyl covered press board, drawers on ball bearing slides hold up better than those on cheap plastic slides, painted or gel-coated fiberglass holds up better than Filon, etc.

As you narrow the field, you will get MUCH better help if you ask SPECIFIC questions (i.e. questions that require a FACTUAL answer) vs "opinions."

Brett Wolfe

[tbutler]

We toured a number of the coaches on display at the FMCA International Convention in Bowling Green. One of the things that struck me is that there is a tremendous difference in the amount of cabinet storage among coaches. Some coaches seem quite roomy but when you start looking at how space is used for storage, those less roomy coaches may have much more cabinet and closet space. For a full timer, I'm looking for storage in the coach and in the basement. Being all American, I can never have too much storage space! If as you indicate, you'll be using this more for short trips and vacations, storage may not be as important. In that case you'll be happier in a roomier coach. Those Prevost conversions sure are roomy but the storage areas with the exception of the basement are pretty slim.

Brett is right on about the durability of items within the motor home. You pay more for quality construction and materials but they will last longer. No motor home, no matter how well constructed is going to be trouble free. Don't spend a lot of money for a high quality motor home with the expectation that you will never need to have anything fixed or repaired. Everything wears out eventually, it is just a matter of time.

When it comes to full wall slide outs, I am a real skeptic. In our motor home the refrigerator is in a location that blocks movement from the front to the rear when the refrigerator door is open. Now the refrigerator door isn't open that often but it seems I need to go from front to back every time the door is open. A full wall slide fixes that problem. Newer floor plans are also solving this design flaw by relocating the refrigerator away from the hallways. We started with no slides, now have two and may someday have four but for now we are quite happy with two slides. Of course we are just two people most of the time. We had eight for conversation a few days ago and everyone was comfortable. I figure that the bigger the slide out is, the heavier it will be and greater force will be required to move it. Thus this could mean greater problems with the slide out. Another factor is how that full wall slide affects the strength of the coach. Not to be Johnny Raincloud, but if there were an accident, how would the full wall slide affect the damage sustained by the coach and its occupants?

How do you envision using your coach? Will it be where you spend most of your time? Or will you be out fishing, hiking, exploring, going to museums and just eating, sleeping and driving in the coach? The less time you expect to stay in your coach, the less important the roomy factor could be. Don't pay for space that you don't really need. For years I camped in a tent with my children, traveling in a station wagon. We ate at the picnic table and only got in the tent to sleep. The rest of the time we were out in the big wide world with plenty of space. In those days, I'd have considered a nice Class B to be a wonderful way to travel with the family! As it is, my children are taking their children tent camping just like dad did. I'm betting someday they will all own an RV, but for now, they are getting out and traveling any way they can.

How do you travel now? How do you expect the coach to affect your travel patterns? Make a list of pros and cons and count them up, divide by two and... Just kidding! A careful evaluation of your expectations could help focus your search. Stay away from the sales people for a while and decide for yourself what you need, not just what you want.

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

You may have understood by reading my messages that I am not American and English is not my mother tongue. I am from Switzerland and I am enthusiast of American Class A RVs. Both my wife and I love them as we love the American philosophy of the fulltimer. This concept does not exist in Europe as there are so many compromises to accept that make life uneasy with European RVs, even with luxury models. That is not the case with american coaches or at least many of them.

Now you understand why I am doing general questions rather than specifics: I am not there to see and touch. Anyway, I do not want to make of this a handicap as I am actually the happy owner of a Gulf Stream Ultra Supreme 32' long and I have done a good experience with that but my wife and I would like to move to a much long term solution and we found a diesel pusher is the right one.

The main purpose is to purchase an affordable coach that we could use for several years. There is only one major issue. Swiss law does not permit to register US diesel coaches first registered in the US over the 31st December 2006 as per Certificate of Title. This means I cannot buy and import to Switzerland a new one, or generally speaking 2008, 2009 and 2010 manufactured units.

Said that, we do know what we want to have:

First, flooplan. We definetely wish a multiple slide outs model but also we think about a full wall slide model such as the Fleetwood Discovery 39V (I had the chance to see one once). This is because we are 5 people (I have 3 kids) and slides give you a lot of room. Now the problem is that I read from roamingtime.com forum that many RVers blame Fleetwood because of lack of structural integrity of the full wall slide in time. Was that they were just unfortunate with their purchase or did something wrong and caused a damage to thier own RV, or Fleetwood mid-coaches are built with poor quality materials or lack of Quality Control?. Others just fell in love with it and had no problems. So what to do? Better go with a multiple slide model or we can go with a full slide also? Or full wall slides do give problems after years because of usage? this is critical to me as once I imported a coach form US, it is difficult to have a ruined slide fixed here.

Second, exhaust brake. In the US you have much space and wide roads while over here just think that your narrowest county road could be compared to a european interstate as per width. Also, swiss is plenty of mountains and then you will understand a certain chassis, engine and mechanic is needed. For exemple here you cannot do without exhaust brake. I know Fleetwood mounts Pac brake exhaust brake on the Discovery, while Monaco mounts the Jake brake on its Diplomat. What is the difference between the two devices in terms of most efficient power brake at same RPM? What kind of maintenance is needed for both?

Third, engine performance. I know a diesel pusher weight stands around 13/14 tons and I would like to know if the Cat C-7 of the 2006/2007 Discovery is powerful enough to push the coach up to the hill without giving you the impression to go as slow as a turtle, or may be it depends on the grade of the road.

Fourth, power brake. I know in the US 6% is the max grade in interstates by the law, but what happens if suddenly I come to a road 12% grade several miles long? Would be the Pac brake efficient enough to help service brake or would be better a jake brake?

Last, recent mid-level coach or aged high end? I noticed the more you move to luxury coaches, the more they are oriented to a couple rather than a family, or at least this was my impression by looking at floorplans. Would it be better to invest on a 2006 Discovery (or similar coaches) and add some more amenities/upgrades home style later on, or go with an older high end coach, let's say a Monaco Signature, aged around 8-9 years equipped with that stuff already?

I hope I made myself much more clear, but to be perfectly honest with you I had to write you everything as to give you the real vision of my personal scenario. Please do not get me wrong as I did not mean to be of any worry.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions with regards to the above.

Steve

[wolfe10]

Steve,

You live in a beautiful part of the world. Dianne and I have traveled over there many times--once for 4 months in a VW pop-top camper. Indeed, your road conditions, particularly if you venture south are different that most of us experience on U.S. and Canadian roads. Much more akin to road conditions in Mexico.

To address a couple of your specific questions.

Without doubt it is more difficult/less probable to build a structurally rigid coach with 27' long "hole in it's side" than one with two much smaller "holes". Were one to drive mostly on smooth roads this would not be as much of an issue. BUT, where you are driving more "challenging" roads, my personal opinion is to stay away from full wall slides. Not much different than comparing the structural integrity of an automobile coupe or sedan with a convertible model.

Both because of your coach age restriction and more challenging road conditions, i would restrict my choices to higher end coaches-- probably in the 36'-38' range. And indeed with a family of 5 you will need to do some research (OR PERHAPS THOSE WITH SUCH A COACH WILL POST HERE) to find a floor plan that accomodates your family.

As far as engines and grade climbing ability, a VERY good read is this document by Caterpillar Corporation-- it helps you understand what affects performance and also to set reasonable performance expectations:

https://ohe.cat.com/cda/files/287140/7/LEGT5364.pdf

Though a HP is a HP in terms of performance, the big difference between gas and diesel engines is that a diesel engine has a LOT more torque and can produce its max HP at a sustainable RPM. Gas engine have high peak HP, but it is not really at a sustainable RPM-- you couldn't reasonably climb an 8 mile grade with a gas engine at peak HP RPM.

And all the coaches you will look at will have either an exhaust brake or engine compression brake (depending on engine size). When combined with the very strong Allison 3000 or 4000 transmission that locks the torque converter in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gear, they will provide adequate braking HP to allow you to safely descend grades. And though it is dependent on weight, with most, you can descend up to about an 8% grade without even touching the brakes (in second gear with exhaust/compression brake on). Your safe speed of descent on those very steep grades will be faster than a loaded truck and slower than an empty one. The same laws of physics apply!

Virtually all coaches on your list will be equipped with very effective air brakes-- they are "power" by definition.

Brett Wolfe

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Brett,

thank you for your support, I think you are right when you say that a full wall slide might be more a nightmare than a benefit if I have to drive along roads like those europeans. I have been looking for multiple slide coaches as well but here I do have some more question and would be more than pleased to knowabout the experience of other RVers if possible. Well, the whole point is that it is not very clear to me what makes the difference between a mid-level coach and a high end one. Has it to do with chassis and engine HP and torque? Has it to do with the level of electric, plumbing and appliances or decors? Do not get me wrong, I know Monaco Signature or Executive are both high end coaches but I am referring to those coaches at a lower level such as Diplomat, Camelot, Knight, Cayman. In other words, where is the point where mid-class diesel coaches ends and high end class begins?

Steve

[wolfe10]

Steve,

Hopefully others will give their opinions on this, as each of us has "triggers" that cause us to classify certain features as low/high end. There is no clear cut line that defines the end of mid-class and high end motorhomes.

Some of the things that help define lower/high end coaches FOR ME:

Chassis: You mention Monacos-- lesser coaches in their line had 4 air bag suspensions with 4 shocks-- high end ones 8 air bag suspensions with 8 shocks. The major chassis makers, Freightliner and Spartan have a wide range of qualities/content chassis (just as you will find in, say, Ford automotive products from low to high end). Some high end coach builders use a custom chassis specifically designed for a motorhome. Upper end tend to be unibodies/monocoque construction similar to over the road busses-- more expensive to build, but more structurally rigid.

Rear radiator on lower end coaches, side radiators on high end coaches.

Vinyl wrapped particle board interiors on lower end coaches. Solid wood interiors on high end coaches.

Little though given to serviceability of mechanical components on lower end coaches. Custom-build chassis or real work done to insure mechanical access in high end coaches.

Filon exterior on lower end coaches, Gel coat Fiberglass or painted exterior on high end coaches.

Coach wiring that is numbered and comes with full schematics to save countless hours of troubleshooting-- a high end feature.

Something that is harder to "see" but is important, particularly on rougher roads is structural integrity. We have traveled many miles on rough roads in Mexico in the company of other coaches. MANY "lighter built" coaches have had structural issues (such as cracks in sidewalls, windshields popping out, etc) caused by rough roads.

Difficult for you to do, being overseas, but one of the quickest ways to identify quality is to look at how 10-15 year old coaches are holding up. At that age, the "glitz" can not easily cover inferior construction.

And, though it IS a generality, in motorhomes as in most things, "you get what you pay for". If one coach costs $100,000 more new than another, there is a basic presumption that it will be higher quality. I guess it is like comparing an entry level car with a high-end car.

Brett Wolfe

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Hello All,

following all suggestions up to now, I went through new search and I have come across a brand I never heard before which should get close enough to the definition of "high end" coach. This is Alpine Coach from Western RV, which I found 2005 brochure surfing in the internet. I carefully read through it, especially with regards to their Peak Custom Chassis which they are very proud of. I understood it has electronic controlled active air ride suspension. I do not know if I misunderstood but if I am right this is a feature I never found in other coach brochures. Every electrical connection is labeled, coded and harnessed in order to allow easier and more accurate troubleshooting. Interiors are wooden made. Another key succesful factor from technical point of view is that this coach was studied as to have well balanced weight distribution: 40% front and 60& rear. This is also important especially with longer coaches as to increase stability while driving.

Said that, what is the point? The point is that I found a number of these units at very low prices compared to their new retail price. Well, I had a look of the NADA guide and a 2005 40' brand new model was around $290K-$300K, while today it is not that hard to find a unit at $110K. Is that because by any chance this company went out of business and then it is difficult to sell used Alpines because of lack of after sale service and warranty problems? Other reasons?

Steve

[Guest Wayne77590]

It is my understanding that Alpine RV closed the doors and sent everything to the auction block.

Did I understand that you will be exporting the RV you purchase? I don't think you will find warranty work being performed outside the U.S., so what would keep you from buy a high end for lower price?

What I have heard, and you need to verify this with the dealer you do business with, is that the dealers are warranting the RV for the first year and then it is up to the customer to obtain an extended warranty. This would be the same warranty as if it were the manufacturer. After all, most all of the major components are out-sourced, and the engines would have the MFG warranty. Yes, there may be a few items that would be warrantied by Alpine RV, and that is would you would have to check about coverage from the dealer.

Just a thought!!

Good luck.

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Wayne,

yes, you did uderstand! I will export the RV I purchase and from warranty point of view you should know that Switzerland is not only the Country of Banks, indeed it is also the Country of Insurance companies and over here you can get for exemple an insurance called Quality 1 which covers chassis, engine and transmission while there are others that cover the interior of the RV as these are coverages studied for those vehicles used as home. Then you understand this is not going to be a problem to me and this is why I am not worried to take a flight for the US buy an american RV and import in Swiss.

It seems to me that you think this company went to bankruptcy and closed activity, but the whole point to me is to understand whether Alpine from Wester RV were infact good quality/high end class RV.

Steve

[wolfe10]

Steve,

Alpine's in-house chassis (Peak) was a good one, particularly from a handling standpoint. It had some unique features in its class, including hydraulic brakes and 4 instead of 3 ride height valves.

Their job on house systems and house construction was, perhaps not up to the standards of their chassis.

I would suggest spending several hours searching the various sites and look for owner comments. "Google" or other search engines should all give you a good start.

Brett Wolfe

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Brett,

once again thank you for your help, you can be sure that I am determined to get as many elements as I can. You certainly understand that my intention is to buy a coach that I can use for several years and I do not want to take the wrong decision. It will take time.

I am going to collect more information about Alpine and today I also found Foretravel. This is very interesting because I noticed this company manufactures high end coaches (they are priced $400K-$500K) and it is still "alive" and this means it must have a know how/reputation well appreciated by the market and this is not very easy in this period of economic crisis. I am curious to know the key succesful factors of Foretravel. We will see.

Steve

[wolfe10]

Steve,

I am very familiar with Foretravel-- both the motorhomes and the company.

We have put over 100,000 miles on our Foretravel.

They are located in a small town in Texas, only a 150 miles from our home, so I know many people at the factory.

They are a small, privately held company and are able to up/down size to meet market demand. They have a VERY loyal following. Because their coaches hold up well over time, a lot of their business is remodeling older Foretravels.

A lot of the things I like about their coaches has evolved because of their "small town-- small company" environment. The engineer's son plays baseball with the service tech's son (lots of owners take their coach back to the factory for routine maintenance). If maintenance items were hard to get at, the tech WOULD mention it to the engineer and they would change it. No huge organization with lots of momentum to "not change".

Yes, In My Opinion, Foretravel should be on your list.

Brett Wolfe

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Brett,

So you are a Foretravel owner and then I suppose if you change it one day, it will be for another Foretravel or at least this is my thought after reading few messages on Yahoo Foretravel Forum. I see one of the reasons is because of the steering related these coaches.

Anyway, you said something very interesting: a lot of their business is remodeling older Foretravels. This is quite astonishing to me as normally a coach builder should not be that interested in manufacturing coaches able to held up that long in time. It would not be profitable in terms of future sales. I know this is not quite what Rvers wish but business is buiness. While in this case I am facing right the opposite. If I well understood Foretravel is able to collect and modifiy older coaches and keep them, say, refurbished (if you know what I mean), and then get them like brand new models. Is that right? If so, this is the very first company I could rightfully delcare "client-oriented" and also means that the general quality of the coach has to be at highest levels mostly in every single component.

If so, as I need to find a floorplan that I can modify as to install bunk beds for 3 kids, this could be easy for Foretravel to do and also, they might be able to suggest an existing model better suited for such need. I do not know, I am wandering.

Steve

[wolfe10]

For more specific information on particular Foretravel offerings:

http://www.beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/...and-manuals.htm

And I am NOT suggesting limiting your search to Foretravels, but I would have them on your list, given your needs.

Brett Wolfe

[inter_65@yahoo.com]

Hello Brett,

Do not worry I did not misunderstood what you meant. I wish to get in contact with Foretravel and ask them for some specific questions with regards to the possibility to modify the floor plan of a 2001 or 2002 U295 and U320. First of all I know very well that it would be better to address myself to a 36'-38' long coach but as matter of fact, if I look at the different floor plans of Unicoaches between 2000 and 2002 the best I could see where to have bunk beds installed were infact the 40' 2002 U295 and U320. For exemple within 4020 U320 AGDS it would be possible to remove the recliner and the little table beside in the living and have bunk beds installed instead. That would mean a minor intervention to the coach interior. Unfortunately, I do not know the measures between the front seat and the kitchen and then I am not sure if this can be done or not. 2000 and 2001 models do have quite different floor plans compared to those of 2002 and seemed to me that a more massive modification to their floor plans would suit my needs. In any case that is why I will get in contact with Foretravel directly.

Steve