mweiner
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Posts posted by mweiner
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Hi Richard, just sent you a private message.... and found this.. photos of your interior... nice.... take a look at my reply and you can respond to that....
--MARK
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1 hour ago, richard5933 said:I would tend to agree that there are many things that could be done to make RVs of all types safer. Sadly though, I think that the deciding factor for a lot of this is what are people willing to pay for. More and more I see that the bottom line is what companies are building to, and few customers are willing to pay the extra money it would take to get a safer vehicle. Once you get away from the high-end vehicles, I just don't see a lot of people wanting to spend the necessary money for safety. Not sure that airbags will work in a larger vehicle like a Class A, but there are certainly things that could be done to make them safer.
No offense meant to anyone supporting the way things were done in the 'good ole days', but in many ways those days were not so good. Years ago many (MANY) people died in traffic accidents that people regularly walk away from today. It would be great to just let everyone use their common sense and take the safer approach, but as is proven time after time many people have no common sense.
I'm not sure why there is such a tendency for some people to mock basic safety items like seat belts though. I'm sorry if someone feels that his/her rights are being infringed upon. Well, not really sorry. More sad that they think so. We all as a society decided decades ago that having people die needlessly in preventable accidents was a bad thing. We decided that having babies thrown through car windshields was a bad idea. And, we decided as a society that if requiring seat belts would prevent needless deaths and countless millions in medical expenses then they should be required. If one is so certain that safety features like seat belts are not helping, then I'd suggest a letter to congress asking that they change the law and go back to the 'old days'.
Maybe I'm being too serious here, but I think that the OP asked valid questions. In reality there is not much each of us individually can do to change things, but as a community it would be possible to push for more safety features collectively.
Richard, well said. Glad you posted this.
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45 minutes ago, jleamont said:When I patent this technology ill let you know
prototype under way in my cookie cutter POS coach built on a commercial bus semi monocoque chassis from the 80's, but what do I know i'm not a NHTSA expert like others, no experience in either industry (rescue or vehicle repair). Just an EX LEO and Vol Firefighter, never seen an accident or cut someone that was screaming from a cookie cutter automobile that passed the controlled environment tests,,,YUP you bet they all passed, some with 5 stars, didn't help those people that night, why,,,,the accident scene wasn't controlled, if it were there would be no accident and I could have stayed in bed those nights.
Ever wonder why Tractor trailers don't have air bags until recently, and not all do even in 2018? There is metal in front of them and under them, heavy metal, the ones with air bags don't have the metal its all plastic and tin like a car, cutting back on heavy metal to keep costs and weight down will all of the Emissions junk weighing the unit down. The weight reduction has to come from somewhere so more freight can go into the cargo area, thus increasing the amount of revenue produced.
Collision avoidance systems; they do work but only if you are headed toward a metal object, fall asleep and head off the road into the woods.....
I agree a controlled environment is exactly what that is, and the cargo area of the vehicle was empty, it didn't even have rear doors, add 4000 lbs of RV equipment to that and hit the block wall, how about slide that van over 1" and miss the frame rail that was intentionally aimed for, head on into the tin and flimsy bumper, any volunteers?
This post covers many moot points, saying all class A's are created equal is about as far from the truth as saying all RV's are created equal or all automobiles that have all passed the same crash tests and go the same score are all created equal, tell that to the people I have seen, but they will all argue with the experts on here.
Every year and generation of new vehicles gets safer, period...That is WHY the 1959 Chevy Impala did so poorly against the 2009 Malibu, a significantly smaller car.. just look at statistics... And, manufacturers and engineers have been perfecting crumple zones to absorb impact...this is like the collapsible steering column ...on Subarus, the entire engine goes right beneath the car instead of rolling right into the driver's compartment crushing the passengers..it's all about good engineering. I fondly remember my first car, 57 Chevy, I loved it... BUT, if you asked me to drive that today, no way...it's not safe... Nostalgic, but, no thanks.
I NEVER said that all Class A's or anything else was created equal..
Now, I'm sure that any "commercial bus" from the 80s or 90s was built for endurance, however, where does that translate to all other Class A manufacturers.. Of course there's differences between car and coach manufacturers in their build quality.. that's why there's testing each year for automobiles from the IIHS Institute for Higher Safety.. they rate cars for a reason... don't you think people pay attention to this???? You bet they do! That's what partially drives sales... Subaru as an example is a leader in the safety of their cars..... Doesn't it make sense to have a safety rating for motorhomes???
I'm very happy that the Sprinter got such a great rating and crash test review..the Ford Transit has been pretty good as well.....that doesn't mean I would want to try this out...
Look, you can "joke around" all you want about the "mattress"... BUT, this issue should be taken very seriously...it's a matter of life and death. Or, at least, reducing your exposure ....
Just because the tests were done in a controlled environment doesn't mean they are not valid...how else are you going to test these things?
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Hi Carl,
I absolutely agree that accident avoidance is the best way, no question. The only thing is though is that's why they call it an "accident"..
YES, there's problems with "air bags"...the whole Takata mess... Mercedes Benz sent me a notice and replaced the air bags system in my van.. they did it pretty fast...a lot of people with cars are still waiting for parts...I was even lucky enough to get a new replacement in my Subaru Outback.... guess some manufacturers are quicker to procure parts.
Those government regulations have saved countless numbers of lives.. don't really see your point on the 16,000 clueless people ( where did you get that number?).
Anyway, the same technology development for airbags is now branching out to develop automatic braking systems, lane departure, and other high technology systems in cars.... I grew up in the 60s...who knew all this stuff would come along.. since the 60s when seat belts were first introduced, car safety has gone up exponentially... it's just a fact... cannot be refuted...
I drive VERY CAREFULLY whenever I'm in the van..as you probably also do in your rig. Accidents are bad.. very bad... that's why I slow down when driving, try to anticipate what other people will do and give myself extra room and time to make turns... when in doubt, go around the block or find a safe place to stop....
Also, rest if you're tired....I've done all of these things...on the 12,000 miles journey I took last fall.... when you're in an RV.. there's no reason to be in a hurry...
The journey is the destination... isn't it???
Between having or NOT having all these technological systems, yes, I'd rather have them...why not?
Anything can happen, you just need to be prepared... I certainly agree that it's great to have all of this extra metal around you in the larger rig.. just make sure you aren't thrown all over the place...one last thing... most Class A's I've been in has people sitting very close to the front end with literally nothing between them and the road...the engine is completely in the back..no buffer zone to absorb impact... maybe I'm wrong?? I don't know, there's so many production models... would be nice if there were a standard for this...
Stay safe and be careful in your rig....
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Here's the website link,
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4 hours ago, richard5933 said:I believe that things like accident avoidance technology would be beneficial, but I understand that it's not cheap. I'm not saying it should be mandated, but if enough customers ask for it I'm sure we'll start to see it in more and more rigs. Of course the best way to survive an accident is to avoid one, so anything that actually helps in that way would be a plus.
Hi Richard,
Mandatory safety?? Well, this has been happening in automobiles for a while, and, you know, it's working...cars today are safer...of course avoiding an accident is always the best way, unfortunately, it's not any guarantee.. kinda wishful thinking...
I definitely agree that your bus has serious structural integrity... look, it was designed for commercial operations.. and it was a premium product meant to last many years.... more than what you might buy as a consumer...
Why can't most manufactured Class A's be required to do this as well? Should be...why not?
Sprinters are used as commercial passenger vans at airports and other hotel operations... because of this, they are required to meet Federal safety standards like automobiles... The information below outlines this very clearly..
Please see this below; mind you, I didn't write this below...it's from a website containing this information.... Here's the info:
Which Sprinter RV is safest in a crash? In the US, class A motorhomes (like the Sprinter-based Winnebago Via and Itasca Reyo) are not required to pass any crash testing. Class B (van-based) motorhomes are required to meet or exceed Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) testing that includes impact testing and roll-over testing. Below is a video comparing a Mercedes Sprinter and Ford Transit during high-speed crash testing, so if you have a class B Sprinter, this is what a head-on collision might result in.
As the video shows, the “cage” surrounding the driver and passenger seating in a class B or class C motorhome provides a great deal of protection, compared to the front cockpit of a class A motorhome. Pictures and footage of most severe accidents involving class A motorhomes typically show the entire front cockpit having been crushed or torn apart.
You also might think, reasonably enough, that since the driver and passenger are sitting up front (let’s ignore the idea of other passengers for now), that the biggest risk in an accident might be something detaching from the cabin and hitting the driver or passenger. This is why cabinets must be attached strongly to the interior – if you’re building your own conversion, think about steel frames attached with steel rivnuts and wooden cabinet exteriors. Have a TV somewhere behind the driver & passenger? This could become a flying missile if it detaches in an accident. Watch from 35-50 seconds in the below video, and notice what’s happening to the interior furniture of the RV.
But what about the effect of the more mundane details you might not check every time you drive? Are your tires worn? Are they properly inflated? This Sprinter van safety video shows Sprinter vans being driven in wet conditions with several types of tires.
The results? The Sprinter van has excellent handling assisted by its onboard electronics, systems like the ABS, ASR and ESP that are standard on Mercedes Sprinters and help compensate for road and weight conditions, as well as informational systems like the tire pressure monitoring (TPMS) system. These systems improved handling dramatically in these conditions.
Though there’s not much public data to go on, we can come up with a few general pointers on how to avoid a crash in your Sprinter motorhome:
- Avoid Class A RVs – If you want to be confident that your Sprinter-based RV has undergone crash testing, buy a class B or class C Sprinter motorhome.
- Avoid overloading – Make sure your the loaded weight of your Sprinter motorhome (including occupants, fuel, waste and all supplies) does not meet or exceed your maximum gross vehicle weight (GVWR) rating. This rating is on the the label on the inside driver’s door frame of your RV.
- Check tires regularly – Ensure that your tires are inflated to the correct pressure, and that they’re not overly worn. Tire blowouts at highway speeds have been the precipitating incident in many motorhome crashes.
Fortunately, my Sprinter van has a tire pressure monitor, electronic stability control, ABS braking, etc.
Again, there's nothing better than defensive driving.. accidents happen.. I'd rather be in the vehicle with the safety equipment standard....
Facts are facts... what can I say... sorry.... Sure, it's expensive... but my personal safety is worth the money...
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Richard, thank goodness, you're very fortunate for walking away from that accident... there's no question at all that physics and weight play a vital role in vehicle safety... but, the introduction of air bags and crash zones in vehicles have made a tremendous impact in saving lives..
Take a look at this surprising video between an old 1959 Chevrolet that weighs considerably more than the newer model....it's astounding.
Again, thank God you walked away from your crash...it's NEVER a good thing to have an accident...
Because our rig is closer in size to a large SUV...I'm grateful that it has the air bags up front...we need everything we can... and, you're absolutely correct..you can't predict what other drivers will do on the road..
---Mark
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Here's another reason diesels are known for their longevity.. they use fuel that's actually a lubricant for the engine and operate at much lower RPMs... producing a lot of torque...so they don't have to work nearly as hard as their gasoline counterpart...
Unfortunately, a lot of people appear to be unaware of this and still apply the rules of mileage equally to gasoline and diesels when looking to purchase a vehicle on the secondary market... This is a quote from the National Automobiles Dealer Association on the market value of diesels.... whenever you want to value your rig for sale be sure and remind prospective buyers that there's different rules and the source for this comes from experts ...NADA is certainly a respected source...
I'm sure that you want to get the biggest return on your investment and that's one of the reasons you paid extra for the diesel engine... It's certainly a premium..
I would think that it will likely give you the return and performance you expected.
See below from NADA;
"Mileage MAY be taken into consideration for gas engine only.
Enter Mileage:
(DO NOT use for diesel engines" -
Never really thought about it...we have many people who park their rigs right out in front or sometimes on the street... mostly Class B+s or Class C's...my neighbor had a 32 foot Class A... and his driveway was extended, widened and more rectangular than ours.... around here, if it fits on your driveway, it's perfectly fine....
Plus, we have a bright LED floodlight right out in front on 24/7... I'm sure that helps deter people from messing with the two cars or the RV...
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We live in a pretty safe neighborhood..of course, anything can happen.. but, after 36 years in the same house... nothing has happened to any of our cars on the driveway.. thank goodness. Plus, it's always great to have good insurance.
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Why do you think it's a "baited post"...it's NOT...I'm interested in hearing other people's decisions.. RVs are very expensive items... like you I'm fortunate that I can store mine right in front of my house with no security concerns.... other people might not be able to do this regardless of whether they are a Class A, B or C...
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Do you pay for indoor storage? Is this necessary?
Depending upon your climate, maybe you pay for indoor storage that is temperature controlled? And what is the cost per foot do do this?
Is there security at these storage locations? Is this 24/7 accessible?
Does storing your rig reduce overall maintenance?
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Are you move reliant on solar panels...how large is your system? And, does it adequately power your systems for house lights and low power consumption electronics?
OR, do you frequently use your generator, if you have one? As you know, generators make a lot of noise and are restricted during certain hours...and you can't hardly walk away from your rig all day leaving the generator running..?
And, what's your battery system?? One 12 volt deep cycle battery or two 6 volt batteries in series?? Have you found a significant difference between the two systems?
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If you're NOT in "SoCal".... maybe you need to store your RV including your Class B for the winter indoors?
How many of you do this and pay for indoor storage? And what's the average price?
Recently, someone told me that they are paying $150 to store their Class C coach indoors with electricity... that's $1,800 per year... over 10 years that's $18,000 ... that really adds up...
We just park our coach on the front driveway...and plug it into the house... whenever we want, just unplug and drive away...easy...
There's definitely a benefit to the size of the Class B and the ability to just hop in like any car..
I've seen people park their Class A's on the driveway if they have space... but, it either takes the entire driveway or they park it on the street...
Where do you park your Class B???
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Everyone has some poor reviews... that's what people do, report problems.....
If I were you, I would consider price, the years the company has been in service and what your needs and expectations are.....
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On 1/25/2017 at 4:38 PM, rfsod48 said:We are considering upgrading our Motorhome and are not sure what way to go. New or used?
Our current unit was used when we bought it. I want to get something at least a little newer with a bath and a half.
We want to stay under $200,000.
Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Well, if you want to save money, I would definitely look for a three to five years old coach that has been well maintained and meets your requirements.... It almost never pays to purchase brand new...the depreciation schedule like automobiles is very steep... just me.. Good luck..
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How do you treat and sanitize your fresh, grey and black water tanks..? We use the typical freshners in the toilet as well...
And, how often do you do this?? I'm concerned about any build up of stuff in the tanks...
On my RS Adventurous, I put a chemical in the toilet or fresh water and flush the toilet or run the water through the sink and dump the tanks...
There's no convenient valve to dump the tanks for the fresh water...or it wasn't obvious to me on my rig...
Dumping the tanks through the hose is pretty easy...Is that what you do?? After we returned from our long journey, I ran water through the system by filling up the fresh water and doing this three times....
We normally drink bottled water on trips...
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1 hour ago, richard5933 said:I'd never use the terms motor home and investment in the same sentence. You buy an RV because you like it, because it suits your needs, and because it fits your budget. You get rid of it when these are no longer the case.
There's no magic to these things. Some keep their rig till they rust into pieces. Others trade up every year or so. Keep a rig long enough and in good condition and maybe it'll end up having value as a rare or collector piece like the older GMC motor homes. Or maybe not. Wouldn't be my plan to buy any vehicle with an eye towards these things if it fits my needs and I can afford it.
Now, on the other hand, how you treat and maintain any vehicle while you own it will have a tremendous bearing on its ultimate value at sale. A well-maintained twenty-year-old rig will have more value at sale than a ten-year-old rig which was poorly maintained, misused, or butchered by someone trying to "upgrade" it.
If we were to ever replace our older bus conversion with something newer, our plan would be to find a 2-3 year-old model that suited our needs and budget. That way the initial depreciation hit was already taken. We'd then keep it until either it didn't meet our needs or until the maintenance costs started to exceed its value and/or replacement cost.
Richard, thank you for your reply...
I agree, maintenance is the name of the game....
I don't work on my cars or RV... never would even touch this except for some minor tightening of cabinet screws....etc....
I know my limitations... would rather pay for the "upgrade"and have it professionally done right... fortunately, I have a great resource for this close by...
You're absolutely correct... they are definitely NOT investments....and if you want to recover any of the value, it has to be meticulously maintained... very important...
For example, I purchased a brand new Honda Accord, drove it for almost 20 years... had almost 150,000 miles on the car....it was in immaculate condition, everything worked perfectly and the car was beautiful....I was able to recover my initial down payment from when I purchased the car.....
Most vehicles don't appreciate in value or become "collector's items"....
Just enjoy your rig while you have it and get as much use from it as you can...the lowest cost for owning any vehicle is the total miles driven...
If you purchase something and don't use it very much, the cost per mile is astronomical...as divided by the purchase price...
I normally keep my cars for 15 to 20 years... And, the big question will be what will last longer the coach or me!
I suppose that if I pass the 10 years point for owning my motorhome, I might as well keep it for the longer term....
Turning over cars, motorhomes or just about anything is the most cost inefficient way to go.... dealership sells it at top dollar, you sell for less and turn around and buy again at the higher price... not a great situation....
Cheers,
---MARK
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Class B's are definitely a niche product...and for us and the way we use it...just two of us, this seemed like the best value for the "engineered dollar"..... but, what about how long should you keep it??
This is a tricky question???
Well, in my opinion, the best value for your investment, would be to keep it to the wheels fall off..( metaphorically speaking) , in other words, go as far and as long as you can... there's no good resale value for really old motorhomes ...they go down fast, plateau for a while and then continue downwards and reach a base just like old cars.....
SO, is it ever a good idea to trade in ?? Probably not, unless you want a larger size rig?? AND, today a lot of people are going smaller... fuel efficiency, smaller footprint etc.. unless you're a FULL TIMER??? How many people in Class B's are really full timing??? Probably not too many!
On the other hand, most finance companies won't finance any rig that is more than 9 years old..so, if you really need to consider selling to either trade up or get out of using it, then 9 years is the magic number otherwise, you have to find an all cash buyer......
Again, the least expensive thing is to just buy the rig that suits your requirements and drive it forever.....
Don't know if we'll have the rig for 10 years or more, but, these are certainly considerations people need to consider when getting an RV..... knowing when to do that is difficult....
Of course, if you intend to purchase an RV to live in permanently and this is your house, it stands to reason that you will never sell it...it's tough to turn around a purchase like this on a newer model without a big cash infusion.... usually read as you're losing money on the deal.... just like a car.....
Do you agree or disagree????
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1 hour ago, RedLdr1 said:I agree, B+ was popular "sub-class" in the late 90's early 2000's then it pretty much disappeared. Now I'm seeing it more again... I see all RV marketing as a gimmick in a lot of ways. Go look at a higher end Class C and you'll find the same appliances that are in a low end model. I like to mention that to a sales person and watch them stutter. And a Ford E450 cutaway chassis, Chevy 4500, or a Sprinter cutaway, is the same commercial chassis no matter how much lipstick, like wood dash kits and ultra leather seats, that RV manufacturers put on it...
We weren't impressed with the small Winnies either... They did feel a bit loose to say the least. But there are a load of RV suspension enhancements advertised, for every Class and chassis, so I suspect many manufacturers would rather sell on "bling" than substance. Those of us who do care end up doing suspension mods...
The Ford diesel would have been a very hard sell, even if the numbers had made sense for me, as I don't like I-5s' either. I remember too many of them that just didn't work out very well... Interestingly enough the new 2018 F-150 diesel Ford just announced is a V-6...not the I-5. Hmm....
There you go buying that "bling"!
Every time my wife looks at the interiors of a Airstream Class B she comments on it. I'm going to buy 5 gallons of polyurethane and dip my interior in it to give it that "bling"...
You wrote,
There you go buying that "bling"!
Every time my wife looks at the interiors of a Airstream Class B she comments on it. I'm going to buy 5 gallons of polyurethane and dip my interior in it to give it that "bling"...---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wayne, maybe it's "bling" as you stated, but, there's something nice about real "cherry wood" finishes and the nicely upholstered ceiling and interiors of the coach we purchased... when we shopped a number of Class C's, like the Navion and Fuse, I noticed that the cupboards were made of laminate or cheap particle board and hinges that were not well designed... resulting in more rattling while underway.... Now, the nature of RVs will lend themselves to more noises and rattle than most cars, but, I sure do care about the substance of the materials used long term...
There's a pretty good reason why people care about how this is done and WHY they are impressed by the details in an Airstream or my unit... please remember that the Winnebago Navion or View (same model) is a Mercedes Benz diesel that was cutaway and they built an entire body on the back end....in order to do that, they had to cut corners on the interior finishes on the interior of the coach. A brand new Winnebago Navion is actually less money than my Class B Roadtrek.... $125,000 vs. $150,000... rough numbers.... And, all the money for the interior of the Roadtrek was spent on customizing the inside of the van...no money spent on creating a new box...so, it stands to reason why they put more emphasis on the interior details and design... The ceiling of both the Navion and Fuse were MUCH less finished than that of Roadtrek..... details matter...
Heck, I probably have as much money in my 5 year old Roadtrek as you paid brand new for your coach?? I didn't want to take the super depreciation schedule in the first three to four years... besides we purchased it with only 26,000 miles.. just getting started to break in ...
Did I like some features of the larger ones...YES... liked the bathrooms much better..and the extra space.. I noticed that even on the Fuse model with the twins, the under chassis space was not as good as the Navion or your Forrest River.. I really don't need the extra bunk beds..or storage...like you, we are NOT full timers and if I need more space, I can always go home...
Besides the test drive, handling and the fact that I wasn't impressed by the inline 5 cylinder, as you agreed... the Roadtrek RS was quieter, smoother, and handled better than either the Navion or Fuse... actually the Fuse didn't impress me at all and I could have purchased this for less money than the 5 year old Roadtrek....YES.. it's true.... Also, the salesman was really pushing me towards the FUSE... It had twin beds.. could be converted..a big hassle.. BUT, the instability, Ford Transit diesel, inline 5 cylinder, noisy, cramped driving position with protruding dashboard and poor handling was a complete deal breaker for me..
The final decision came when the salesman for both the Navion and Fuse told me that the "roofs" of the brand new coaches, Navion and Fuse were "guaranteed" for 10 years... NOW, that sounds great.... EXCEPT, he went on to CLARIFY that this didn't cover the SEAMS! WTF....
The Roadtrek RS has a complete metal roof with rubber around the gaskets for the penetrations just like you would find on a car with a sunroof... and they didn't build a separate box on top of the chassis.... Now, it's possible to develop a leak anywhere... but, its NOT as likely as a complete fiberglass cap with seams running all over the place.... Bottom line for me, the Class B van conversion was going to be less maintenance...
If I don't like driving a vehicle, what's the point?? Maybe others would think it's OK, I didn't...
I don't believe in making "suspension modifications" as you stated above... maybe a anti sway bar...?? Then , I would have to be convinced it was a good idea...the vehicle should be designed and perfected at the factory and ready for driving....
One thing I have noticed about camping.. it's nicer to be boon docking in a BLM land, for peace and quiet.... campgrounds and RV parks can be quite noisy and the camp fires with smoke permeating into your site can be really annoying...it's much quieter at home and I can be away from all this...
As for your "not boon docking"...you probably could go out for a weekend and be fine... just have to wait for your water heater to kick back in . One of the best and memorable places we stayed was a BLM land near Arches National Park...not many amenities, but serene .... here's a picture.. below Hittle Bottom .. Only a few people there when we visited..cleanest pit toilets we've ever seen and nice park hosts as well....since we're over 62..with the senior park pass...it was only $7.50 per night...Lots of beautiful scenery there...highly recommend....
I know this is quite a distance from your location...are you planning on taking trips all over the USA in your rig???? I noticed that you mentioned only "touring"....We tour as well, but, that 12,000 miles trip was a long distance.... Were planning shorter trips for a while... that was a lot of driving....
Do you have solar panels on your rig???? You can be quite self contained with solar...We are using a Zamp Solar system on our rig with two AGM batteries , 6 volt in series...works very well...
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4 hours ago, RedLdr1 said:Yes, that is correct... It is not a big deal as long as you carefully manage your hot water usage. And as I mentioned it has an outstanding recycle time in "Boost" mode. Since we aren't "campers", we use our TS to tour, we are normally stopped at a campground with showers available anyway. Might as well use those amenities I'm paying for!
While the Truma Combi water heater side is lacking it is an excellent furnace. Very quiet, no fan roar, and it warms the coach very well. Even so I usually use an electric ceramic heater as I see no reason to burn my LP while I'm paying for electricity in a campground.
No, that isn't an option in the Forest River Sunseeker / Forester family.
The Truma brand is German and is designed for small Euro sized caravans. After five years of living in Europe I know that most Europeans are more tolerant of small sized appliances than most Americans. With RV downsizing in general I suspect the Truma Combi will start being more common in both Class B and Class C units as time goes by...
Truma also make a on-demand water heater that is used in some Forest River Class A brands.
Wayne, I agree...we use showers at campgrounds as well as electric whenever we can.... yes, it's an feature you're paying for......
We tried a small ceramic heater... didn't work out too well... didn't warm up that great, I'm thinking about an electric blanket...but, we have great wool blankets..We have a solar panel system and controller for our rig...works extremely well..
LP capacity a problem for your coach?? What's the capacity?
Like you, we're more "touring", sometimes do camp somewhere for a few days, but, we're NOT full timers...no interested in going full time...we do like to travel and seeing new places is perfect in a rig that gets better MPG....
I've met some people who have super large Class As, and they are certainly beautiful...but, when you talk with them, they make two trips per year...they are snow birds going once every six months.... that's NOT what I bought my rig for...
We just got back from a 12,000 miles trip across the USA....Can you imagine how much more that would have cost at 5 or 7 MPG.... compared to the 18 to 20 MPG we got...it's a huge difference....
We did a little boon docking at some BLM lands and even some Wal-Mart's for a quick stop and pick up supplies.... the smaller rigs do have an advantage to park almost anywhere...
I'm envious of your quiet heating system.... ours is working fine, but, a little noisy.
We'll get over it...we try not to go places where the temperature is below 32 degrees... although it did happen a couple of times....we had to add antifreeze to the tanks...by the way.. I'm told that UNLESS you're storing the rig for the season...you can just add the "pink fluid", easily obtained at any Wal-Mart...we drink bottled water...it works in a pinch... Then, you don't have to stress about breaking a "PEX line". We got home and flushed everything through several times...no problem.
Enjoy your rig.... nice features.
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Of course the Forrest River is a Class C... not a Class B....
I think that Class B+ is a marketing gimmick....
When we purchased our Roadtrek... I test drove a Winnebago Navion and Fuse.. both were larger vehicles... with the big box in the back and overhang for bunk beds... driving dynamics didn't appeal to me...
Again, choice is good... and your specific needs...
Yes, we're in California.. more mountains... And, we've taken it through the Rockies... no problem with power...this thing just goes everywhere easily and doesn't slow down...
You're right on oil changes...in fact, everything is more expensive on the Mercedes Benz.... I call the service advisors at Mercedes..." Dr. Feel Good"....😀😀😀. They ply you with a fancy lounge, cappuccino's and croissants... you think that's cheap??? NO, it's not.. you're paying for it.....On the other hand, I love the way it drives.. there's a long service interval between those visits...
Yes, it's probably more expensive to maintain... BUT, I drove the 3.2 Ford Transit diesel... at least in my opinion, the 5 cylinder engine is not as responsive or smooth despite the specifications above-mentioned...you might have thought that the 3.2 would have more oomph...it didn't.. the extra large box in the back, with the wind drag and unbalanced swaying from not being directly over the wheels...( Back dual wheels on the Navion and Fuse) were slightly inset from the overhang of the coach.
... I don't like 5 cylinder vehicles.... Not as balanced... just me. And much noiser than the 6 cylinder 3 litre MB... Again, choices....
Finally, the finishing touches and details inside our Roadtrek RS Adventurous really made the Ford Transit and Winnebago Navion look cheap... didn't like that....
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43 minutes ago, RedLdr1 said:The Sprinter 3500 and Transit 350HD are direct competitors and I've owned both... Here is my take on the issue:
I used a proforma spreadsheet to compare the two engine options when purchasing our TS. I looked at the following items:
Initial cost of the diesel engine over the base gas engine in the purchase price. In the case of our Transit it is about a $6K option for the diesel. Gasoline wins this round.
Maintenance costs of the diesel versus the gasoline engine. I pay around $50 for a oil change on my Ford every 7,500 miles, or every six months. A Sprinter may be at 10K miles but how much is an oil change? I can't even buy the M-B spec oil necessary for what I pay for the complete service. Plus I don't have any diesel filters to purchase. Gasoline wins again.
The MPG of the diesel versus gas. Our MBS, when it ran
, didn't do bad at 16-17MPG. The Transit is getting mid 14's in comparison. Now add in the extra cost per gallon of diesel, and DEF, over gas. The fuel price per mile was very close...so close I would never see any payback worth discussing. Right now around here diesel is running around $2.99 a gallon, gas is $2.49. Diesel cost per mile at 17MPG divided in to $2.99 a gallon is 17.5 cents per mile. Gas cost per mile at 14.5MPG divided in to $2.49 a gallon is 17.1 cents per mile. And a gas engine doesn't need DEF. Even so this round is close enough I called it a tie...
Collectively those three items told me it did not make financial $en$e to "upgrade" to the optional diesel when we ordered our TS.
Power? I loose on torque... Here are the posted numbers:
M-B Sprinter 3.0L V-6 Diesel: 188 HP and 325 ft-lbs of torque.
Ford Transit 3.2L I-5 Diesel: 185 horsepower and 350 lb.-ft. of torque.
Ford Transit 3.7L Gasoline: 275 horsepower and 260 lb.-ft. of torque.
My 3.7L gas V-6 runs great and doesn't have any "power" issues..at least the way I drive. I've driven I-75 thru TN and KY both ways and the cruise held 62MPH just fine through the mountains. No, it isn't the Rockies...but it isn't flat either. I admit it did down shift in to fifth gear on some of the longer steep grades. Not bad considering that our TS weighed in right at 10,000 pounds when I had the RVSEF do a "four corner" weighing of our rig. That is a little bit less, about 500 pounds, than our Sprinter based Class C weighed on a CAT Scale.
Diesel resale? Been their, done that... With a M-B Sprinter and Ford diesel trucks, and SUV's, back when we had big travel trailers. In my experience the resale value of a diesel is no better than a gas engine when you factor in the additional purchase price. Sure you get more trade in but you paid more to begin with...in my experience it was effectively a wash in every deal. As for the mileage not counting on a diesel it certainly does count around here!
In most Class B's you aren't going to have an engine choice. Any Sprinter based unit, currently the majority of Class B's, will be a diesel. However in some Ford Transit based B's, like the Coachmen Crossfit, you can spec either engine. Same thing with most of the small Forest River Class C's like ours. That is the nice thing about the current RV market, everyone gets to choose what works best for them!
Thanks Wayne, as you know, I purchased my Roadtrek RS Adventurous second hand from a recently trade at a dealership.... Here's the link to the NADA RV guide.... diesel miles are NOT required for value... see this below,
http://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2012/Roadtrek/RS-Adventurous-Sprinter/6012700
Your Forrest River certainly has more sleeping quarters than my rig.... enjoy....
Your absolutely correct, choices...
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Admittedly, as a group, Class B's are expensive for what you get....
Most of them, like my Roadtrek RS Adventurous are in excess of $125,000 to $150,000 brand new and even though I purchased it five years old, it was still with upgrades and maintenance close to $100,000... although, with upgrades I made, it might as well be a brand new coach.
Airstream, Leisure Travel, Pleasure Way , Winnebago and Roadtrek build similar coaches with unique and compact features similarly found on Class A coaches... albeit on a smaller scale...All with beautifully finished interiors you might find on a much more expensive Class A...
It takes a lot of ingenuity, planning and design to squeeze all of this into impossibly small spaces.... that's partly what you're paying for....Miniaturization...
And everything has to fit perfectly in its place for all of this to work......
Roadtrek has been building Class B's exclusively since 1974...yet, they only recently completed their 30,000 vehicle conversion at the factory in Canada...
SO, do you think this is WHY the market for Class B's is so limited compared to the ubiquitous Class C coaches... on the Ford and Check chassis selling for substantially less???
I've seen gasoline Class C coaches for one third the price of a brand new Class B on the Mercedes Benz platform... and they can sleep 4 or more people....
For $150,000 to $200,000 you can even get some larger Class A's... up from there to $ 500,000 or more.... They're certainly nice... but, it's hard for me to justify something that will ultimately be of no value in 20 to 25 years.... just me... sorry.
When we decided to purchase an RV... I only wanted to get something that would be scaled for the two of us... but, when I tell people what I paid... they can't understand why we didn't get a lot more coach (size wise) for the money..... Don't know if they'll ever understand that...oh well...
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How Many Of You Are Roadtrek Owners?
in Type B Motorhomes
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Good morning.. I'm somewhat familiar with your coach.. I have a friend who had a 190 Popular with the Dodge Ram and now has a 210 Popular with the Chevy platform... your coach is 20 feet right in between...
So, how long have you had it, what's your experience been with it? Lot of miles? I saw your post about latches , yes, I recently had some replaced on my 2012..
I'm sure that the care and maintenance of your rig is a little easier than my diesel..?
Did you purchase it brand new..we got ours used in May 2017.... Didn't want to take a huge depreciation hit on buying new.. just me...
I looked up your model online, looks very nice.... has a wider interior aisle than my RS... think it's a 30 inch aisle.. mine is only 28 inches... space as you know on a Class B is everything...
Also, I think that your overall width of the coach is wider outside as well...?