Confused About Newmar & Thor

[harryglos]

I've been looking at various gas motorhomes for awhile now and settled on a 2017 Newmar Canyon Star.  I've driven a couple new 2016's but not a 2017 until the other day.  I expected them to ride and handle the same and they did for the most part.  It seems like the handling of the 2017 is a little nicer but that could just be my imagination. 

My problem is I also like the 2016/17 Thor Palazzo that I also drove.  I've read a lot about the Palazzo and some of it not good at all.  Others who own one say it's not as bad and has the normal fix up stuff of a new coach.  I want a new coach and the Palazzo is the only diesel fitting my budget.

 

What do you think?

[jleamont]

Harryglos, welcome to get FMCA forum!

If it were me I would go for the Newmar Gas over the Palazzo. The Newmar quality would be significantly better than the other. Depending on what you are using it for and if you were set on a diesel I would look in the used market. There are some really nice gently used higher quality used diesels on the market. We looked at a Palazzo in 2014 while we were shopping for our second coach (first was a gas class c). Since we had some experience already we were horrified over the quality of the Palazzo and lack of storage. I also wasn't a fan of almost no engine access on the coach which calculates into much higher maintenance costs. Also do not rule out Tiffen products for a gas coach. In my opinion Newmar or Tiffen would be my only two choices for a gas class a motorhome. We recently browsed a few new diesels, and I was shocked how poor the quality was with Forest River, Thor and Damon. 

Not sure where you are shopping but here is an example of nice used diesels. I'm in PA and I would make a trip to them if I were in the market and they had something I was interested in.

good luck with your search, if you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.

http://motorhomesoftexas.com

 

[harryglos]

Thank you for your reply. I've heard good things about Motorhomes of Texas and I'm sure would be a great place for a used coach. I'm really looking to buy new and you've confirmed what I already knew "stay away from a Palazzo"!

My wife and I will spend maybe 3 to 4 months in the summer in the coach and maybe 6 to 7,000 miles a year. When I spoke to Newmar of my plans they said a Canyon Star would work for us very well. The Palazzo just messed with my brain for a moment there!

Any other thoughts I'd love to hear them. 

[manholt]

Harry.  Welcome.

Don't know what part of the country or world you call home, if you can, I would go and take a tour of the Factories.  All would love to have you and wife visit.  Having  had Class A's, both gas and DP's for over 45 years, if I was in the market for a gas today, I would go with either the Canyon Star or Allegro,,,NEW.  DP used.  Motorhome of Texas does 80% of my Service work...the other 20% I use Texas Custom Coach !

Carl

[michaelhillhouse]

We purchased a Newmar Dutch Star used almost two years ago and I must say we have never regretted our purchase . The quality and workmanship are the best of any coach we've owned also the factory support is the best in the US . We had a American Eagle and it wasn't near the coach the Newmar coaches are, That's my humble opinion ,

Good luck on any coach you buy .

Michael

[RodgerS]

harryglos

I'm really confused about your decision-making process. First, you are comparing gas to diesel. Second you are comparing a high quality Newmar with an entry-level quality Thor Palazzo. I think you are way ahead of yourself based on your presentation of these two issues.

I recommend going back to the drawing board and doing a lot more research. One of the best ways is to put in search terms in this forum (on all the below) and google on the internet "gas vs diesel" for example, F53 suspension upgrades, and reading the recent eight part Industry analysis and related responding comments at rvdailyreport.com. Also go to a Newmar forum on irv2 and and a Thor forum and read all the good and bad stuff. I think this will take about two months minimum to sort through, should you do it (my way).

Here are a few basics meanwhile:

If you go gas, Newmar is your best choice for a combination quality of components, quality build, PDIs done at the factor and dealer, warranty help, and service. Whatever Ford F53 chassis you end up with, however, assume you will be looking at suspension upgrades. See above research. 

If you go diesel, a used high quality DP is a cost effective choice, but it depends on your DIY skills, inspection capabilities, willingness to hire inspectors for the house, chassis, engine, and comfort level.  The RV Daily Report articles are going to give you a lot to think about. 

Lastly, let your decision-making instincts be guided less by your technical and logical analysis, and more by suggestions from the experienced members. BECAUSE, their experience draws from a larger array of knowledge that what you are apt to be reasonably be able to draw from in the short period of time you are working the issues. However, that said, how well your thought process is going in and the questions you ask will limit what you can get from the members. 

Rodger S. 

[harryglos]

Thank you all for your responses,  When I said "Confused" in the subject of my post I should have used "Insane" to consider a Palazzo!  I was building a model airplane earlier and maybe got too much of the glue smell!

I've researched gas coaches on the coach web sites, forums and test drives determining months ago that my only two coaches of consideration were Newmar and Tiffin.  I quickly narrowed them down to Newmar because I like their floor plan, they offer a 40 footer, is built on the 26,000 Ford chassis and was very impressed with the plant tour.

How I allowed the Palazzo to seep into my thinking is anyone guess but will think of it no longer.  It was simply a diesel coach that fit our budget for a NEW coach, but I know better, I really do.  

We want a "NEW" coach that fits our budget and found we can get the best gas coach built for a little under budget.  I know the central brain trusts say "buy I used diesel for what your spending for the new Canyon Star".  And I get that because I've driven diesels and they're sweet, no doubt about it.  But gas fits my NEW coach budget and that I can buy the best in the category can't be too bad right?

As I said earlier we'll spend three to four summer months out west and we'll get up and down the rockies somehow in our gasser.  We'll winter in our stick house in Florida.  I'd not be at all surprised if we didn't take a few Florida side trips as well.  The Keys are kind of nice that time of year!   

I think what I was after was you guys setting me straight on the Palazzo so I could get it out of my mind and do what I set out to do in the beginning!  This is our first coach and want to get it right the first time out!

Thank you all,

Harry

 

[manholt]

Your more than welcome !  Just for giggles, the Canyon Star comes in a 37' max length, not 40" !  Think your mind is still on DP mode...

Have fun and stay safe out there.  Also hope you join FMCA!

Carl

[harryglos]

Hey Carl, the Canyon Star 3900 series are all 39'11". My coach of interest is the 3902 and take a look at that bad boy and tell me it isn't sweet!

[jleamont]

Harry, I've only read a few posts from you and you already sound like one of us !

Enjoy when you purchase make sure to join and post pictures in the gallery, I would love to see your new coach. 

Enjoy and safe travels!

[RodgerS]

Don't forget to match your coach to how you will use it. I believe many, not all, owners would suggest that 40 feet and up are generally used by full-timers and extended travelers, tend to like staying in private campgrounds and are dp. Yes, there are plenty of exceptions, but weight, mileage, and time are relevant factors. 

Gas tends to be shorter and owners tend towards public campgrounds and shorter stays. Yes there are exceptions, but the stock suspension seems to irritate a lot of owners, though many seem to be reasonably happy with the upgrades. 

A very short Class B seems to be for those who want a highly mobile option for short trips. Yes there are exceptions. 

A 5th and truck is also excellent, particularly if you own a truck and have another use for it. 

I find that I have to read between the lines to figure out some of the whys in some of the recommendations of experienced owners. 

How a mfg markets the coach is, for me, an indication of their target market which is worth considering. 

When Newmar had an issue with overweighting the front axle of the 2016 Dutch Star, it was represented that their target market was owners that tow storage trailers. Be it true or not, it was interesting to think about. 

I have seriously, slowly, and continually deeply considered every class.  I would have purchased by now but my funds have not freed up and I'm still taking care of my 92 year old mother full time. Yes, there are options, but I'm not feeling pushed to find solutions. My boxer also insists on being considered. 

All said, I believe my wife and I have agree that we are apt to keep our SB and do some extended stays and some international travel, a mix of campgrounds, but with the advantage of traveling off season. She has basically told me she will go along with whatever I want, when I want. The reason I stay connected to this forum is because I believe, at the end of the process, I will probably buy a used Newmar, Country Coach, Monaco, etc. MH of 40 feet...making good use of my skills to minimize the risks about as good as anyone can that I have chatted with to the best of my knowledge. 

The primary used risks, as I understand them, are failure to identify water damage, motor issues, and chassis/suspension chassis issues that can cost upward to $20,000 or more to fix in addition to upgrades of something in the range of $10,000.  Stuff like tires, batteries, generator, flooring and furniture are easy to get right/change/upgrade from my point of view.

Not to belabor, but if you get to the point of buying, try not to end up being a good example of what not to do. 

Rodger S. 

[PlanB]

5 hours ago, harryglos said:

I've been looking at various gas motorhomes for awhile now and settled on a 2017 Newmar Canyon Star.  I've driven a couple new 2016's but not a 2017 until the other day.  I expected them to ride and handle the same and they did for the most part.  It seems like the handling of the 2017 is a little nicer but that could just be my imagination. 

My problem is I also like the 2016/17 Thor Palazzo that I also drove.  I've read a lot about the Palazzo and some of it not good at all.  Others who own one say it's not as bad and has the normal fix up stuff of a new coach.  I want a new coach and the Palazzo is the only diesel fitting my budget.

 

What do you think?

I have a thor Tuscany xte and I love the coach, before this coach I had a thor outlaw it was nice to.

[jleamont]

Rodger brought up some good points. Something to add, I haven't driven a 39' gas coach, since Ford is now running the 6 speed and increased HP and Torque. I would be curious how it runs and handles with stock suspension, mostly with sway from passing vehicles, also what is the towing capacity? Watch out for that also, a coach that large increases the weight so it might decrease your towing possibilities, just keep that in mind while shopping depending on your car you may have to shorten the coach so your existing car can be pulled behind it.

[harryglos]

Great discussion guys and I appreciate it very much. One of my last conversations with Newmar I asked them about the springs. The way I framed the conversation was telling them I saw a video by the Wynn's about a trip they took to Alaska in a 38' Fleetwood Bounder. 

They talked about and showed on the video how it was buffeted by wind and trucks going by and how it needed constant wheel correction and it wold sway on turns.  The Wynn's took it back to Fleetwood and they installed sway bars front and back that seemed to fix the problem. 

I asked Newmar if the Canyon Star would have the same problems and they said no. First because Canyon Star is one a 26,000 pound chassis while the Bounder is on a, he was pretty sure a 22,000 pound chassis. Newmar also orders all Ford 26,000 pound chassis with Fords premium suspension. He assured me the Canyon Star would not be effected like I saw on the Wynn's video with the Biunder.

He also said that he goes to many shows and the dealers and customers haven't mentioned it as a problem.  I also asked him about doghouse noise, also a problem in the Wynn's video and he said No, he's not heard that as a problem either, which I thought was quite a strong statement!

I hope that's right because I'd hope an engineer at Newmar would tell me a story. What are you're thoughts?

Thanks again for a great discussion!

Oh and thanks jleamont, I'm glad I fit somewhere!

[manholt]

When your conversing with Newmar, is that an Engineer or Sales man?  The latter, tend to know nothing and feed you the answers you want to hear, based on your questions. I guess, I'm old school....36' and less, gas good.  Any longer, go DP or UFO (don't think they make them anymore), that's front diesel. 

Many reasons behind my thinking, but on a practical sense, the longer a light gas unit is, the more sway and torque on chassis equates to more stress on you the driver !  Joe's right.  A DP at 40' has none off the above issues, due in part to being heavier, better suspension and drivability...I hate white knuckles !  My coach would only be 5' shorter than your gas!!!

I just looked at Canyon Star Spec.  You have 3700 pounds to play with on a 40'...that's you, wife, food, clothing and whatever else should not exceed.  On a 38', you have 5,500 to play with.  320 hp gas engine, trying to pull a 40 footer, is insane! 

Just my 2 cent worth...

Carl

[harryglos]

Hi Carl, I've heard the "no gas over 36 foot" before and I have only one question. When was the last time you drove a gasser with the new 6 speed tranny?

Most folks have a very high opinion of Newmar, do you think Newmar would build a 40' gasser if it wouldn't do the job?  OK, that's two questions!

Did you notice how nice the interior is of the Canyon Star when you were there? Wow that's three questions!

And what did you think of the 3902 and the way they set up the bath and half? Oh man that's five, I'm a wild man!!! ?

[jleamont]

Harry, I would like to say yes to your questions above, most of them anyway. I believe most RV companies would over build on a chassis, and most have and will every single day. I hold Newmar to a higher standard, but that's not to say they won't do it also. 

Since you will be making a purchase that is significant, take what you get in here and do your homework. Drive both models above and see for yourself, run them both down a interstate let a tractor trailer pass you feel them out, stop at a scale pull into it. Weight the unit, while it might not yield true numbers since it's not loaded it will give you an idea of the creditably of the builders weight numbers. 

Do yourself another favor, get numbers from the sales person and nothing else, scooping ice cream on Monday and selling RV's on Tuesday doesn't make you an expert. Most of the ones that have been around a while have no clue or idea what they are doing and are not experts on the product they represent. I learned this while RV shopping and we were amazed even the salesperson that has been around a few years could find his or her way to work every morning. If you doubt any of this take the time and read the other posts on FMCA from people like yourself, you will be amazed (horrified is probably a better word) what you will read. If it were me I would do as much homework as possible (as Rodger mentioned above) once you have that coach you are stuck with it. 

While everyone has their own opinions, the recommendations on here are as a result of watching so many people fall into a hole when making the decisions you are considering. Watching people jump into something that was engineered incorrectly or built incorrectly is a regular occurrence in the RV world and we read about it every single day. 

In my opinion, you are on the right track with the product line being considered. I did look at Newmar prior to our purchase in 2014.

[manholt]

2015.  Belongs to a friend and it's the 6.8L 362 HP with 470 Torque 35'...you might ask Newmar why they are using the 320 HP?  That's 35 more than my Jeep/6 speed auto.

Would Newmar build a 40' gas?  They would build a 50' gas, if people would buy them, so would any Manufacturer!

Every body, gas or DP, depend  on the "BLING"...it distracts the buyer!  Most buyers are women, the man writes the check !

The RV Industry is no different from any other Industry...They base everything upon  the first time buyer and the fact:   "There is a sucker born every 12 seconds" !  Sorry for being brutally honest.

[wolfe10]

I believe you will find that Ford lowered HP rating on all their F53 chassis, but also rated that HP at a lower/more realistic RPM, not one that has the engine screaming.

So, not sure there is much difference at "normal" RPM range.

[manholt]

Brett. Bet it's still "screaming" up a long hill and at 40' even an overpass!

What I also wonder about, is how much of that coach is a welded on extension to chassis?

[wolfe10]

Carl,

Please don't misunderstand.  Low 30's is the longest gas chassis I would consider as well. A well built (read that heavily built) 40' on a gas chassis is mind boggling.

But, I would hate to see the thread turn into a "Gas vs diesel" or "New vs used". 

You bet-- all of us who have been around for awhile have strong preferences on both.

[jleamont]

Agreed! Gas vs diesel or used vs new need not be on this post. I'm more concerned with the OP buying based off of what the salesperson told him assuming the OEM engineered and built it properly. As we all have seen in the past with others the majority of the time engineering and build quality go out the window and the consumer gets stuck. If one persons advice on here can help someone avoid that, great!

I would hate his first trip out with his new toy be a white knuckle experience, my instinct tells me it would be with all of that wind sail. 

[manholt]

Oh, I do agree with you on the  thread !  Not trying to do that, just some facts,,,,$160,000+ is a big bite for a gasser, that will be worth, maybe, $120K when you drive off the lot.  I fully understand what he wants and what he can afford. 

Joe, you just snuck in...

[RodgerS]

"I asked Newmar if the Canyon Star would have the same problems and they said no."

"I'm more concerned with the OP buying based off of what the salesperson told him assuming the OEM engineered and built it properly."

And, you said, can you please put that representation in writing and agree to buy back your unit if I, the owner,

am unsatisfied, and he said sure and sent a certified copy to you that your attorney said was perfect. 

If you are down the line disappointed that this expert/salesman, you trust, Newmar/Dealer/service representative opinion fails to match your experience/reality...you are just another forum complaint we can all commiserate with (while secretly - just me- - am happy I'm not you. )

=========================================

Actually, length is not really a Newmar issue. The longer and heavier chassis are generally more stable. 

As weight goes up one generally wants a stronger chassis and a stronger engine = diesel.

And you will find underpowered diesel MHs.

And yes, maybe the transmission makes a difference, but only you can

say in practice if it makes enough of a difference, particularly as you put all you stuff in and pull a trailer or car.

If it does't your dealer will be happy to see you, like so many other first buyers that come back within 12 months, and offer

you a depressingly low trade-in value, to get you into the diesel you now are buying to solve the

problem you thought was solved based on perfectly good logical and rational arguments (and cutting edge technology).

================================

When I worked at an RV rental place the mechanics loved the F53 chassis and engine. 

I think there is a general rule, generally ignored: you drive the MH under the conditions you will use it and then you decide if it is satisfactory or not. 

A demo often doesn't do it, but renting your target unit for a couple of weeks might. 

Buying and trying, then rebuying, definitely works!

==========================

Lack of butt time is not often offset by increased technical analysis and rational arguments. Those who have the most butt time are

your experienced members. There will be times where a particular member's experience may not line up with experience with the new

technology that might offer a new opportunity. Butt, that increases your decision risk as you are often going back to a judgment based on 

technical analysis and rational arguments, or maybe even a marketing likely-biased article written to read as an unbiased savvy RV review.

==============================

[jleamont]

After my friends Fleetwood wouldn't steer with a full water tank and my C was overloaded with no personal belongings and empty tanks, it really opened my eyes to what is out there and what they will do to put someone in a seat.