RodgerS Report post Posted July 24, 2016 harryglos, I think your most important issue is buying new or used. If you can make the mental jump and buy a used quality dp, and that includes a lot of inspection cost, time, and some upgrades, I think most used buyers tend to find themselves ahead of the game. Having cash vs credit tends to affect that decision. Quality is heavy. There are used DPs out there that sold for 400K, that are available for under 200K that will be excellent, even if you discover a problem you have to fix despite your best inspection efforts. Assuming you really want 40 ft, not 34 ft, so to speak. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manholt Report post Posted July 24, 2016 Number 1. Brett, Joe and I agreed that we would not make this a Gas vs. DP thread! I hope everyone understands that. 2. Harry, have you and your wife looked at the 2016 Trek by Safari yet? You might be very surprised by what it has to offer! 3. I sincerely hope everyone understand and abide by Rule # 1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryglos Report post Posted July 24, 2016 Thank you all very much, very good information and I appreciate your taking the time for the thoughtful responses. Manhole, I'm not aware of the 2016 Trek by Safari, but I'll check it out after this post and report back! Let me see if I can zero in on things we can maybe agree on. 1. We want a NEW coach and our budget does not allow for a NEW diesel. I know that many do not understand the NEW part but it’s something my wife is adamant on and she wins! 2. No one argues if I’m buying a gasser I’m buying a Newmar is the top of the food chain. 3. Canyon Star has a 38’ that’s very similar to the 40’ but we like the added 2 feet as we’ll be spending three to four months in it! 4. I’ve driven the Newmar Top of The Line 40’ Canyon Star gasser and 40’ Ventana LE diesel and the diesel rides better, drives better, is less noisy and has great breaks. 5. (Base MSRP before options) The 40’ Canyon Star gasser costs $168,704.00 and the 40’ Ventana LE diesel costs $249,719.00 a difference of $81,015.00. If the diesel isn’t better for that difference than something is very-very wrong! 6. Nothing here about gas vs diesel, It’s all about cost vs financial reality. If I need to say I’m sorry for not being willing to spend more or buy used than I’m sorry. Please let me know if you disagree with any of my 6 points and especially where you think I've gone wrong? Unlike Tom Cruse, I can handle the truth! Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryglos Report post Posted July 24, 2016 I just checked out the 2016 Trek by Safari and it's too small and isn't bath and half which is a "Must Have"! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manholt Report post Posted July 24, 2016 What did I say about "who buys and who pays"! OK ! First, no body pays MSRP on a unit...get somewhere between 25-35% off either price! MSRP is just a #, If you compare Newmar MSRP to Dealer MSRP the dealers is going to be 10%+ higher...so figure the 25-35 off Newmar! Google Newmar and on that page of CS it will say "build your own now", Yes you can buy one from Newmar and they will co-ordinate with dealer...that cuts out a lot of BS and you/wife get what you want, not what a sales man wants you to have! $120K max. with options maybe $125K. Second, Don't be afraid to negotiate and most of all "HAVE FUN" ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryglos Report post Posted July 24, 2016 Hey Manholt, I know you don't pay full MSRP and I know your 25 to 35% off is accurate! But you can't walk away from the $80,000.00 difference! That's going to be there regardless of the amount off MSRP! And I'll not have a salesman walk me down the primrose path, that's why I have you!!! Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manholt Report post Posted July 24, 2016 I did not have the DP in mind, the numerical difference will never change...matter of fact a DP will keep costing more and more as the years roll by than a gas...maintenance! is the big equalizer. I also have looked at gas lately, why? I'm a Shriner, but I don't run all over the Country anymore with a trailer full off Parade toys! For that it takes a DP. All I pull now is the Jeep. Also, I don't have a wife with me. My user name is MANHOLT or Carl. Thank you! Carl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jleamont Report post Posted July 24, 2016 Harry, good luck with your purchase. Please understand we don't want to see another fellow RV'r get taken for a ride, that is why this post has gotten so much traction. Usually we hear the horror stories after. On a good note if that chassis becomes a white knuckle experience there is a bunch of aftermarket products to dial it in. If you knew it up front you might get it thrown in. If you were good with the ride quality than you should be set. Now comes the task of locating a dealer that can support your needs after the sale and as close to home as possible. I can't help with that. keep us posted on your decision. Joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RodgerS Report post Posted July 24, 2016 As I mentioned, the new vs used decision seemed to me the number one issue. (Done) The next issue is matching your plans and needs to the appropriate class of rv. (Done) Since you have decided on a Class A, your budget leads you along a logical path that "seems" to be a Newmar or Tiffin gas. (Done) Length and floor plan is often an issue of where, how, and when you want to go to make it work. Traveling off vs on season AND Public vs private locales. Not much left to do but pick the floor plan and get one with it. =================== One way to involve your spouse: My wife wanted a 5th. I also like them. I took her to an RV dealership where she saw a truck with the 5th hitch in it - she was not happy with that requirement. I took her to a Chevy dealership and showed her the required tow vehicle. She was not happy with the idea of a dually. She said she had seen lots of single axle trucks on the road, but when I explained the issue of pin weight on the axles vs safety and stability she understood. ============================ She basically takes the position the decision is up to me. I make constant efforts to bring her into the decision process. Now she is more amenable to a used dp MH, my choice, with her choice of towable. However, when I told her I would put $10,000 into a checking account for remodeling, plus another $5,000 if needed, she was excited and is looking forward to buying used as a big advantage of having a coach customized the way she wants it. She asked that I get lighter colored cabinets to start with and a darker paint scheme on the outside. I will be involved just enough to keep her from doing something that would have to be redone. Bling is not a factor for her and neither is what others think. Rodger S. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryglos Report post Posted July 24, 2016 This has really turned into a terrific conversation and I thank every one of you for making it so! My wife reminded me that a gas coach fits into my comfort zone! I know and understand the gas engine and drivetrain and that I don't want people crawling around the inside and outside of our coach for general maintenance issues. Sometimes our woman knows us pretty well... I think the BIG thing I realized is you don't have to go to a diesel for a quality interior and living space. Once I saw Newmar and all the good stuff everyone said about the coach and the company it came down to a win-win situation for me. This is my first coach and getting it right the first time is important to me as it is to all of us. I'll order the coach from the dealer who gives me the best price and will pick it up from Newmar. They charge just under $4,000.00 for factory pickup and assign a person to show you the coach from top to bottom who will stay with you until your comfortable with all aspects. And anything they find along the way needing fixing or attention they jump on it immediately. What a feeling of comfort to have a pro show you through your coach from stem to stern for a couple days, not a couple hours. Did you know when you buy a Newmar, there's a plaque on the drivers side with a persons name and phone number that you can call at anytime day and night? If the water heater doesn't work at 9 at night you have someone to call. I think that's terrific, what a great feeling of comfort and confidence. The same confidence that comes from the knowledge that you good folks are out there for me! I appreciate each and every one of you! Oh and can I call you a 9 PM? Harry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RodgerS Report post Posted July 24, 2016 The factory pickup with a Newmar factory PDI is an excellent decision you won't regret...I have heard nothing but happy reports from owners. Rodger S. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manholt Report post Posted July 25, 2016 Factory pick up is a good thing. Before you leave for home, tell them that your going to a RV Park, 75+ miles away, for a 3 day shake down cruise. If there are any issues, you'll write them down and be back, If not, you'll head home or where ever! It's a rock and roll house, something that is great at the factory camp ground, is going to give down the road. When my DW was still alive, we did 2 factory pick ups and if it cost $$$ to do so, over what I paid for coach, she never told me! That part makes no sense to me...Have already paid, so what am I paying more for? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jleamont Report post Posted July 25, 2016 Factory pick up cost more? . Wouldn't that save you money or maybe just a small amount for factory to put it in service, not that the dealers do it correctly anyway. But why the added cost? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryglos Report post Posted July 25, 2016 I wasn't surprised by the added cost because I'm asking the factory to do more than just ship the coach to a dealer. What does surprise me is they don't take off the amount they have built in for freight! I asked them about it and they said they build in a fixed amount no matter where the coach is shipped and is part of the fixed cost of the coach. They do not rebate it back because all financial transactions are handled by the dealer! Only the $4,000.00 (I think its actually $3,500.00) is paid directly to Newmar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RodgerS Report post Posted July 25, 2016 "That part makes no sense to me...Have already paid, so what am I paying more for?" "Wouldn't that save you money or maybe just a small amount for factory to put it in service, not that the dealers do it correctly anyway. But why the added cost?" ======================== I believe it is generally understood by those who read and comment in various forums that: 1) We read way to many horror stories regarding the build quality in this industry. RVdailyreport recently did a public outing in this regard. The horror stories include months of down time in the first couple of years due to scheduling headaches with dealers and mfgs to get the warranty work done at the dealer or with a trip back to the factory....we are talking about multiples of problems in various multiples, with multiples of downtime and multiples of trips. 2) The better mfgs, like Newmar and Grand Design for example, are using extensive and multiple PDI's as the answer AND are much more actively addressing after purchase service and warranty responses. They are the attempt at being the cutting edge of the industry, so to speak. 3) PDI's do not equal true quality control, they are a band aid. The industry, today, is where the auto industry was when the Japanese broke open the auto market with true quality control systems. Unfortunately, RVs are not and can not be made like autos. Unless you are buying a Rolls Royce, your car is not custom built and hand made for you. A Rolls Royce costs more, yet breaks down a lot and requires extreme serving...like an RV. 4) A PDI can mean many things and the lousy dealers, not uncommon, limit it to a three-page sign off that may have been done quickly or not at all. And they don't usually even want to discuss the fact they did something minimal or nothing. The cutting edge dealers, like RollingRetreats for DRV, also attempt to make PDI's their cutting edge. 5) What are you paying for at Newmar. You are substituting the dealer PDI and dealer service bays for Newmar's factory owner responsive PDI and right now, on site, service dept. My understanding is that your PDI experience will last a week or more. That during that week you will be in your RV and using it...and one or two of Newmar's top guys will be with you a lot of the time. If you have a complaint or they find an issue, your fee includes immediate access to a Newmar expert technical who will take care of the problem NOW. You will get all the training you can stand. When you leave, you will know you coach inside and out, AND you will be confident that you have gained the advantage of house odds on having a good story to tell. Now, everyone says this quality stuff costs, so you want more you pay more...not really all that difficult to understand, especially starting with the concept of the RV=money pit. (and a luxury purchase) Rodger S. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryglos Report post Posted July 25, 2016 I agree with all of that Roger S. My thinking is I can go into my new coach with the knowledge I've picked up here and other places. Then I can pay Newmar $3,500.00 for the benefit of knowing all I can reasonably fit into my brain about my coach and RVing in general. That knowledge, which will be sizable, with me and a Newmar professional going through the coach to find every little, medium and BIG thing wrong and have it fixed is terrific. Getting to meet and know a lot of Newmar people in the process is no small thing either!!! I think it's a win-win situation and wouldn't hesitate to pay $3,500.00 for the privilege! Have I fallen off the sled too often? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jleamont Report post Posted July 25, 2016 Harryglos, I have a unique situation with our first RV purchase, my experience as a Dealer technician and I have probably less than half the experience as most of the others on here with being around these for many years. I worked for a large truck dealer that worked on Motorhomes, we had a Ford, CAT, Cummins and Isuzu Franchise's. We did mostly chassis work. Over the years you develop relationships with customers over the years and they would ask us to work on other stuff beyond the chassis, so for that I was self taught. We bought our first RV from a small dealership, the owner called me prior to pick up and told me to allow him and the service manager 6-8 hours to go through it with us a pick up. I thought....what???? We arrived early on a Saturday morning and we literally went through the unit filling it with water, running all of the appliances, tank empting and we actually winterized it when we were done (it was February in PA). I picked the service manages mind since he was a tech prior to stepping up to his current position. That was great since I worked on so many before I was able to connect the dots through him. It was a great experience for us, sounds like you will also get some useful information. Take notes! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RodgerS Report post Posted July 25, 2016 If I was buying a new Newmar MH I would be happy to pay the $3,500. Make the connections, will be fun, improve your probabilities. It doesn't need to make sense to all New buyers and sled riders. Everyone is welcome to do it their way and do what makes sense for them. Penny wise and pound foolish OR A fool and his money is easily parted. Take your pick. Read, in this forum, the horrible story of a new American Coach owner. No right answer, just luck of the draw. By the way, I don't think you are being foolish. I think you are being proactive and savvy. When I buy used, I will probably spend at least $3,500 in inspection fees to try to avoid water damage, and getting stuck with an obvious suspension or engine disaster. And if I'm unlucky, I will have to do that more than once if I decide to walk away from a coach. Rodger S. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manholt Report post Posted July 25, 2016 OK. Enough of this ! Harry, please do us a favor, after you have your coach and have experienced a couple of months in it, get back on the Forum... It would be a pleasure to hear from you. Carl C. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
five Report post Posted July 26, 2016 On 7/25/2016 at 6:08 AM, jleamont said: Factory pick up cost more? . Wouldn't that save you money or maybe just a small amount for factory to put it in service, not that the dealers do it correctly anyway. But why the added cost? You are correct. The factory charges a fee, but it should be added on to a price that would be considerably less than if purchased from a dealer. That's how it should work...does it...who knows, I'm sure all factories are different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RodgerS Report post Posted July 26, 2016 We were told to end this discussion. However, these "should" point of views need to consider that the mfgs have target price points that they consider to be buyer decision points. By providing "options" to customers, they are able to meet their target price points. I think every MH "should" come with a high low voltage protection system AND my "should" list could go on...for example, quality tires on trailers. Lots of "should" to go around. (Did I spell should wrong or use too many letters?) Rodger S. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hermanmullins Report post Posted July 26, 2016 No Rodger, you spelled it correctly, some times too many words , but the spelling is right on. Herman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jleamont Report post Posted August 8, 2016 Met some folks this past weekend with a 2017 Newmar 4369 Dutch Star, they invited us over for a tour. They factory ordered it and it wasn't their first coach. They upgraded from a Coachmen cross country. The Newmar impressed me with its designs and quality. First thing I noticed was the interior layout actually worked and flowed. Fit and finish was spot on and engine access was outstanding. They have had it for a month and have been running it since, the only problem was a burned out light bulb. Hats off to Newmar for a job well done! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
five Report post Posted August 8, 2016 Sounds good! Get their email address, contact them in a year and ask about problems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RodgerS Report post Posted August 8, 2016 But the coach is used and unacceptable for reasons unclear to me, for buyers who insist on "new." The negative for the owners is the coach is now worth significantly less than they paid for it, if they wanted to trade it in or sell it. As far as asking them questions in a year, I would be more interested to find out how many miles they have put on the coach, how much time they have spend in it, and what maintenance they have done or have had done on the coach. Unless they are full timers or are taking it on a one year fling.... Rodger S. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
