1999 Ford V10 Starting/Running Problem

[Jim@Leslie]

A problem has occurred with the starting our Newmar Mountainaire which is built on a 1999 Ford Chassis with a Triton V10 engine.

When we returned from our September trip I gassed up about five miles from home after putting two large bottles of Sta-Bil in for the 75 Gallon tank. Now, after about 70 days, when I try to start it the engine fires up but refuses to idle or continue running. It just runs up to about 1500 rpm then immediately runs down and stops. If it was a carburetor engine I would suspect a main jet or idle jet blockage but I am not so informed on injection as to be able to diagnose the problem.

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

[manholt]

2 large bottles of Sta-Bil?  Did you run it thru the system after adding or just dump in tank while filling up or after fill up?  A little goes a long way...I think you got too much!

When I put my coach up for over a month, I fill it up at a Truck Stop, 22 miles from garage and add a regular bottle of Sta-Bil for diesel, my tank is 150 gal.  The longest it's been sitting was 94 days...started up and drove me from Galveston, TX. to Marianna, FL.  Where I took on 110+ gal.  No problem.

Carl

[kaypsmith]

I was the unlucky recipient of water in the fuel received at the gas pump many years ago and had some results very similar as described. I would remove the fuel filter and look for contaminates within the filter, I use a clear glass container to pour the contents of the filter into. If water is in the gas, it will go to the bottom in a few minutes. Knowing that most gasoline sold these days contain ethanol (grain alcohol), the alcohol will allow water to mix with gasoline, but too much water will still drop to the bottom if you wait long enough. Sta-Bil is a good product for keeping the gasoline from losing it's octane rating but to my knowledge does not overcome the results of water in fuel. Fuel filter would be my starting point.

[wildebill308]

That is a heavy dose of Sta-Bil but it shouldn't keep it from running. I agree with kaypsmith that it sounds like a plugged fuel filter. There is a Sta-Bil for ethanol blended gas and I would try that next time. Let us know what you find. Filters are cheap and a good place to start.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00125ZMD2?tag=price145380f-20&ascsubtag=wtbs_5830c5157ff98d3267520d1f

Bill 

[Jim@Leslie]

The instructions on the bottle say 1 oz per gal for in use equipment and 2 oz per gallon for storage but not for a specific time. 64 oz is less than 1 oz per gallon. The bottle of Sta-bil was tipped into the tank before the gas was added (about 50 gals) and then we drove home about five miles, at 7 to 9 mpg I would have thought that would have been enough to shake the mix up and distribute it to the injectors. The fact that the engine fires up and then cuts out makes me think the fuel is OK as are the starter, plugs and batteries but I might be wrong.

[Jim@Leslie]

Right, I have just been out and started the generator. When we got home in Sept. I ran the generator for 20 minutes or so to distribute the Sta-bil loaded fuel to it. It has just started and ran fine which to me indicates that the fuel is probably not the problem with the coach engine. I think that excess Sta-bil is not causing the problem. That puts it into an injector unit problem. Any advise would be appreciated but it looks like Coachnet will be the next call.

 

Jim.

[kaypsmith]

Your generator uses a different fuel filter than the coach engine, also pickup is most commonly placed at the 1/4 tank level for the generator. Overdosing according to Sta-Bil instructions will not harm the system, it is a petroleum distillate. And as stated earlier, and by others, fuel filters are cheap and would be my starting point.

[wildebill308]

3 hours ago, Jim@Leslie said:

Right, I have just been out and started the generator. When we got home in Sept. I ran the generator for 20 minutes or so to distribute the Sta-bil loaded fuel to it. It has just started and ran fine which to me indicates that the fuel is probably not the problem with the coach engine. I think that excess Sta-bil is not causing the problem. That puts it into an injector unit problem. Any advise would be appreciated but it looks like Coachnet will be the next call.

 

Jim.

You might as well call Coachnet as you don't believe what people have told you. 

Bill

[manholt]

Sorry, did not think about water in fuel, been a diesel it would have been my first thought...my bad!

I put in too much Sta-Bil in my Harley tank once and it did about the same, would not idle long enough to put in gear...drained tank, put a gallon in, ran engine and filled up from same pump, my fuel pump, 500 gal.  Bike ran fine...?

Carl

[manholt]

WBill.  I'm confused and don't get it?

Carl

[kaypsmith]

Water in gasoline will settle to the bottom of the tank especially after sitting for a while. But there are several other factors with an EFI system. such as not enough fuel pressure on the rail, much like a diesel but not as high a pressure. Most gas powered vehicles these days have an electric fuel pump installed in the fuel tank, if this totally quit, the engine would fail to start period, but if it becomes weak, with all the sensors in place, they would tell the computer to shut down the engine an on and on. Too much additive could possibly cause a fuel pump to become weak and malfunction. But a water laden fuel filter will cause the same problem, I have not seen a water separation system on a gas powered system lately, only paper in the filter, and it doesn't take much water to start the restriction process. Coachnet probably knows this better than us though. 

[Jim@Leslie]

Well, to be honest I didn't think of water in the fuel as I am always careful to ensure the tank is topped off before the coach is parked to reduce the airspace in the tank in which condensate forms. If there was phase separation occurring in the fuel, which as I said is treated with Sta-bil I would have thought it would effect the generator as well but water settled in the bottom of the tank would not effect the generator. Thanks for that tip and I do believe what people tell me but the replies don't always arrive when I am sitting here, I might just be out trying to find out what is going on myself.

Jim.

[manholt]

Jim.  I know that feeling real well ..

[jleamont]

Jim, have you tried to keep it running by pressing on the accelerator pedal.....if so does it stay running off of idle? If so.....open the engine access, look for the item in the photo below, after you start the engine tap on it with a screw driver handle, its probably stuck (tap on the cast portion not the electrical connection side). That valve is your idle air control valve, when they stick it will cause the engine idle to surge and stall. Since they are an output from the Powertrain Control Module no engine light will illuminate when they stick or fail.

Give it a few taps and see if it idles after.

[Jim@Leslie]

Thanks for that information, the "Technical Tap" technique as used in all engineering circles. I once managed to get a jet engine start valve to close with smack from a hide faced mallet. As the saying goes its not owning the hammer, its knowing were to apply it.

 

Holding the pedal down and cranking the engine just turns the engine over, it doesn't fire. Pushing the pedal down while the engine runs itself up to its initial 1500 or so RPM has no effect, it just runs down and stops.

I will try said technique first and go on from there.

Thanks again for all of your advice.

 

Jim.

[jleamont]

Jim, crank it over, as soon as it starts step into the gas pedal to bring the idle up to 2000 rpms. simple test since the valve in question is only for idle, anything above that its bypassed.

They are inexpensive, most auto part stores will stock them and the dealer will most likely have it on hand, usually less than $100.00 and they are prone to failing, enough that I carried one when I had my V10 motorhome.

[Jim@Leslie]

OK , Tried technical tap, no effect.

Changed air and fuel filters, no effect, also no water in fuel and just as an aside found some water in the air filter. Don't know where that came from as we are sixty days without rain and Matthew didn't affect us this far in land.

Stepping on pedal during the few seconds it is running has no effect, does not accelerate above its 1500 or so rpm that it indicates when the key is turned and it fires up momentarily.

Local RV dealers mechanic says he doesn't do chassis work any more, truck dealer says they only service diesels. No one around here seems to do a mobile Mechanic service so it looks like Coachnet will have to send someone from pretty far away. Only other shop wants to tow the RV to their premises, may come to that but our chapter rally next week will be missed, pity.

Thanks for your help so far,

Now getting worried. All my years as an Aircraft technician doesn't help as I retired before electronic fuel controls became the thing so am way behind the curve on modern EFI engines. I still have my balancing kit for SU twin carbs and I can still set the valves on a floating ring 18 cylinder radial but unfortunately that's no help now.

 

Jim

 

[jleamont]

Jim, just past the air filter within the housing is an electrical connection on the filter housing, un plug it and see if it starts and runs. While it was running did you notice if the engine light was on before it stalled (it will come on if the engine is not producing RPM's).

There is not much to that engine (in my opinion) with your background once we figure out the root cause the repair (depending on the location of the failed part) shouldn't be that bad.

[jleamont]

There are a few other possibilities, (reason for my post above)

1. The Mass air flow sensor located behind the air filter could be faulty, unplugging it will allow the engine to idle if its defective (old trick works 99% of the time).
2. Check the air intake tube between the filter and the throttle body, if its torn or cut the engine will not idle as its messing up the data from the Mass air flow sensor and improperly mixing your air fuel ratio.

[Jim@Leslie]

Getting late and Leslie is getting frustrated with me.

Found two connectors, one on the back of the air filter canister (rubber bung about 1 1/2 inch tall, 4 wires to it) and one on the rubber connecting hose, plastic fitting about 5/8 inch square. I think you mean the larger one but would like to be sure.

Jim

[jleamont]

Jim, it's the one with the wires coming out of the rubber bung that is on the air filter housing. You can follow it down if I remember it is a pigtail around 1' long or take the filter out and take the air box apart (just snaps together) and un plug it from the mass air flow meter. The photo below is what's inside of the filter housing "mass are flow meter or sensor"

 

[jleamont]

Jim, here is a photo of your air cleaner "exploded view" you want to unplug #9

[Jim@Leslie]

Thanks J (for want of not knowing your name). Does it matter which end I unplug, doesn't look like it from the diagram. Mind you the other end of the cable is in a mass of looms and may be longer than shown here so will try via the air box to start with. Will get back to you later, hopefully with results.

Jim.

[Jim@Leslie]

Thanks again J . It started and ran as you predicted, so what do I need now, a new mass airflow detector I would guess. Probably a Ford part but could be available locally.

I wonder whether the water in the air filter had damaged it.

Thanks again and I await your reply with some relief.

Jim.

[jleamont]

Jim, great news!! You will need your chassis vin number and a trip the local ford dealer for a mass air flow sensor. As you can see it should be simple to replace, certainly could be much worse.