Time for Safety Features on Motor Homes?

[richard5933]

I think that the bigger point I'm trying to make is that until the basic structural integrity of motor homes, particularly Class A rigs, is brought up to what would be even minimal standards for passenger vehicles any talk of things like air bags is pretty much pointless. Smaller rigs like Class C and especially Class B will inherit some protection from the underlying cab structure. Unfortunately most newer Class A rigs have only minimal ability to protect vehicle occupants in a collision.

I'm not getting this information just from the insurance adjuster. We were on-scene at the accident for hours and hours. There were LEOs from the police, sheriff's office, and the state troopers. All that we talked to agreed with the premise that had we been in most modern Class A rigs we would not have come through the collision nearly as well. Many of the less expensive rigs simply crumble on impact with pieces flying everywhere.

The company rep from Tiffin we talked to at the RV show hoped his coach would do well, but his honest answer was probably not nearly as well as the bus did. He was not aware of crash testing that had been done. Maybe there is some data out there, and I'd love to see it if there is. I was allowed to open the front generator hatch on the Tiffin and was really surprised to not see anything to act to deflect the impact away from the passenger compartment (internal bumper, etc.) There was a pretty decent looking firewall and some structural pieces, but really nothing to deflect another vehicle and prevent intrusion. The rep did say that there is a lot of metal used in the overall framing, so perhaps the protection is better than some.

I believe that things like accident avoidance technology would be beneficial, but I understand that it's not cheap. I'm not saying it should be mandated, but if enough customers ask for it I'm sure we'll start to see it in more and more rigs. Of course the best way to survive an accident is to avoid one, so anything that actually helps in that way would be a plus.

 

[mweiner]

4 hours ago, richard5933 said:

I believe that things like accident avoidance technology would be beneficial, but I understand that it's not cheap. I'm not saying it should be mandated, but if enough customers ask for it I'm sure we'll start to see it in more and more rigs. Of course the best way to survive an accident is to avoid one, so anything that actually helps in that way would be a plus.

Hi Richard, 

Mandatory safety?? Well, this has been happening in automobiles for a while, and, you know, it's working...cars today are safer...of course avoiding an accident is always the best way, unfortunately, it's not any guarantee.. kinda wishful thinking...

I definitely agree that your bus has serious structural integrity... look, it was designed for commercial operations.. and it was a premium product meant to last many years.... more than what you might buy as a consumer...

Why can't most manufactured  Class A's be required to do this as well?  Should be...why not? 

Sprinters are used as commercial passenger vans at airports and other hotel operations... because of this, they are required to meet Federal safety standards like automobiles... The information below outlines this very clearly..

Please see this below; mind you, I didn't write this below...it's from a website containing this information.... Here's the info:

Which Sprinter RV is safest in a crash? In the US, class A motorhomes (like the Sprinter-based Winnebago Via and Itasca Reyo) are not required to pass any crash testing. Class B (van-based) motorhomes are required to meet or exceed Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) testing that includes  impact testing and roll-over testing. Below is a video comparing a Mercedes Sprinter and Ford Transit during high-speed crash testing, so if you have a class B Sprinter, this is what a head-on collision might result in.

 

As the video shows, the “cage” surrounding the driver and passenger seating in a class B or class C motorhome provides a great deal of protection, compared to the front cockpit of a class A motorhome. Pictures and footage of most severe accidents involving class A motorhomes typically show the entire front cockpit having been crushed or torn apart.

You also might think, reasonably enough,  that since the driver and passenger are sitting up front (let’s ignore the idea of other passengers for now), that the biggest risk in an accident might be something detaching from the cabin and hitting the driver or passenger. This is why cabinets must be attached strongly to the interior – if you’re building your own conversion, think about steel frames attached with steel rivnuts and wooden cabinet exteriors. Have a TV somewhere behind the driver & passenger? This could become a flying missile if it detaches in an accident. Watch from 35-50 seconds in the below video, and notice what’s happening to the interior furniture of the RV.

But what about the effect of the more mundane details you might not check every time you drive? Are your tires worn? Are they properly inflated? This Sprinter van safety video shows Sprinter vans being driven in wet conditions with several types of tires.

The results? The Sprinter van has excellent handling assisted by its onboard electronics, systems like the ABS, ASR and ESP that are standard on Mercedes Sprinters and help compensate for road and weight conditions, as well as informational systems like the tire pressure monitoring (TPMS) system. These systems improved handling dramatically in these conditions.

Though there’s not much public data to go on, we can come up with a few general pointers on how to avoid a crash in your Sprinter motorhome:

• Avoid Class A RVs – If you want to be confident that your Sprinter-based RV has undergone crash testing, buy a class B or class C Sprinter motorhome.
• Avoid overloading – Make sure your the loaded weight of your Sprinter motorhome (including occupants, fuel, waste and all supplies) does not meet or exceed your maximum gross vehicle weight (GVWR) rating. This rating is on the the label on the inside driver’s door frame of your RV.
• Check tires regularly – Ensure that your tires are inflated to the correct pressure, and that they’re not overly worn. Tire blowouts at highway speeds have been the precipitating incident in many motorhome crashes.

Fortunately,  my Sprinter van has a tire pressure monitor, electronic stability control, ABS braking, etc.

Again, there's nothing better than defensive driving.. accidents happen.. I'd rather be in the vehicle with the safety equipment standard....

Facts are facts... what can I say... sorry....  Sure, it's expensive... but my personal safety is worth the money...

 

[mweiner]

Here's the website link,

http://www.sprinter-rv.com/the-safest-sprinter-motorhome/

[manholt]

Mark.  I have read this whole tread, just now, since I missed it last July.  I was in Europe at the time.

This is what I have gotten out of it...Government Regulations for the most part, is overkill, just another way to put 16,000+, clueless people to work!  Any crash test, is a controlled environment, where mass meets an immovable object at X mph!  The X mph is never Freeway speed and the outcome is mathematical predictable!  What is not predictable is a faulty air bag, that has metal chards in it and has killed and maimed people, that probably would have survived, had they not had a bag deployment at 7 mph!!!  I disabled mine in the Jeep Wrangler!

Richard.  That did not look as bad, as the Tiffin or any other cookie cutter, gas or DP, would have!  I fully intend to get another coach, before I hang up the keys, and it will be a Prevost XL or XLll...The last XL (40 foot) was in 2005, since then it's been XLll or XLlll (45 foot).  Point is, they are built like your 1964+ and will not explode with flying fiberglass in a accident.  I don't have much trust in the H3-45...just the XL's.

I'm at a Rally in Tyler, Texas and one of our members have a 47 foot Custom Built 2016 Newell.  It's integrity, both inside and out, is close to the Prevost, but I would still trust the XL more!

Mark.  I would not want to be in any Class B or C in a 60+ mph accident...even with accident avoidance system, I can think off a lot of scenario's where it would get you maimed or killed, just by avoiding the other vehicle!

I'll  go with a foam dash mattress!

[mweiner]

Hi  Carl,

I absolutely agree that accident avoidance is the best way, no question. The only thing is though is that's why they call it an "accident"..  

YES, there's problems with "air bags"...the whole Takata mess... Mercedes Benz sent me a notice and replaced the air bags system in my van.. they did it pretty fast...a lot of people with cars are still waiting for parts...I was even lucky enough to get a new replacement in my Subaru Outback.... guess some manufacturers are quicker to procure parts.

Those government regulations have saved countless numbers of lives.. don't really see your point on the 16,000 clueless people ( where did you get that number?). 

Anyway, the same technology development for airbags is now branching out to develop automatic braking systems, lane departure, and other high technology systems in cars.... I grew up in the 60s...who knew all this stuff would come along.. since the 60s when seat belts were first introduced, car safety has gone up exponentially... it's just a fact... cannot be refuted...

I drive VERY CAREFULLY whenever I'm in the van..as you probably also do in your rig.  Accidents are bad.. very bad... that's why I slow down when driving, try to anticipate what other people will do and give myself extra room and time to make turns... when in doubt, go around the block or find a safe place to stop....

Also, rest if you're tired....I've done all of these things...on the 12,000 miles journey I took last fall.... when you're in an RV.. there's no reason to be in a hurry...

The journey is the destination... isn't it???

Between having or NOT having all these technological systems, yes, I'd rather have them...why not? 

Anything can happen, you just need to be prepared... I certainly agree that it's great to have all of this extra metal around you in the larger rig.. just make sure you aren't thrown all over the place...one last thing... most Class A's I've been in has people sitting very close to the front end with literally nothing between them and the road...the engine is completely in the back..no buffer zone to absorb impact... maybe I'm wrong??  I don't know, there's so many production models... would be nice if there were a standard for this...

Stay safe and be careful in your rig....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jleamont]

3 hours ago, manholt said:

I'll  go with a foam dash mattress!

When I patent this technology ill let you know  prototype under way in my cookie cutter POS coach built on a commercial bus semi monocoque chassis from the 80's, but what do I know i'm not a NHTSA expert like others, no experience in either industry (rescue or vehicle repair). Just an EX LEO and Vol Firefighter, never seen an accident or cut someone that was screaming from a cookie cutter automobile that passed the controlled environment tests,,,YUP you bet they all passed, some with 5 stars, didn't help those people that night, why,,,,the accident scene wasn't controlled, if it were there would be no accident and I could have stayed in bed those nights. 

Ever wonder why Tractor trailers don't have air bags until recently, and not all do even in 2018? There is metal in front of them and under them, heavy metal, the ones with air bags don't have the metal its all plastic and tin like a car, cutting back on heavy metal to keep costs and weight down will all of the Emissions junk weighing the unit down. The weight reduction has to come from somewhere so more freight can go into the cargo area, thus increasing the amount of revenue produced. 

Collision avoidance systems; they do work but only if you are headed toward a metal object, fall asleep and head off the road into the woods.....

I agree a controlled environment is exactly what that is, and the cargo area of the vehicle was empty, it didn't even have rear doors, add 4000 lbs of RV equipment to that and hit the block wall, how about slide that van over 1" and miss the frame rail that was intentionally aimed for, head on into the tin and flimsy bumper, any volunteers? 

This post covers many moot points, saying all class A's are created equal is about as far from the truth as saying all RV's are created equal or all automobiles that have all passed the same crash tests and go the same score are all created equal, tell that to the people I have seen, but they will all argue with the experts on here.

[kaypsmith]

Since the Subaru has been mentioned, my daughter bought a Subaru several years ago, and the spare tire was mounted above the motor, up front of course. I questioned quite often, why was the spare tire mounted where it was. I finally found out that it was the only way that car could survive the crash test. Lesson here is, if the spare tire is up front, don't throw it in the trunk, and think everything is OK. By the way, for keeping this post on topic, my bus has the spare tire that is mounted on a rim and fully aired, behind the front bumper, which is hinged at the bottom for access to the spare, what a coincidence. LOL

[mweiner]

45 minutes ago, jleamont said:

When I patent this technology ill let you know  prototype under way in my cookie cutter POS coach built on a commercial bus semi monocoque chassis from the 80's, but what do I know i'm not a NHTSA expert like others, no experience in either industry (rescue or vehicle repair). Just an EX LEO and Vol Firefighter, never seen an accident or cut someone that was screaming from a cookie cutter automobile that passed the controlled environment tests,,,YUP you bet they all passed, some with 5 stars, didn't help those people that night, why,,,,the accident scene wasn't controlled, if it were there would be no accident and I could have stayed in bed those nights. 

Ever wonder why Tractor trailers don't have air bags until recently, and not all do even in 2018? There is metal in front of them and under them, heavy metal, the ones with air bags don't have the metal its all plastic and tin like a car, cutting back on heavy metal to keep costs and weight down will all of the Emissions junk weighing the unit down. The weight reduction has to come from somewhere so more freight can go into the cargo area, thus increasing the amount of revenue produced. 

Collision avoidance systems; they do work but only if you are headed toward a metal object, fall asleep and head off the road into the woods.....

I agree a controlled environment is exactly what that is, and the cargo area of the vehicle was empty, it didn't even have rear doors, add 4000 lbs of RV equipment to that and hit the block wall, how about slide that van over 1" and miss the frame rail that was intentionally aimed for, head on into the tin and flimsy bumper, any volunteers? 

This post covers many moot points, saying all class A's are created equal is about as far from the truth as saying all RV's are created equal or all automobiles that have all passed the same crash tests and go the same score are all created equal, tell that to the people I have seen, but they will all argue with the experts on here.

Every year and generation of new vehicles gets safer, period...That is WHY the 1959  Chevy Impala did so poorly against the 2009 Malibu, a significantly smaller car.. just look at statistics... And, manufacturers and engineers have been perfecting crumple zones to absorb impact...this is like the collapsible steering column ...on Subarus, the entire engine goes right beneath the car instead of rolling right into the driver's compartment crushing the passengers..it's all about good engineering.  I fondly remember my first car,  57 Chevy, I loved it... BUT, if you asked me to drive that today, no way...it's not safe... Nostalgic, but, no thanks. 

I NEVER said that all Class A's or anything else was created equal..

Now, I'm sure that any "commercial bus" from the 80s or 90s was built for endurance,  however, where does that translate to all other Class A manufacturers.. Of course there's differences between car and coach manufacturers in their build quality.. that's why there's testing each year for automobiles from the IIHS Institute for Higher Safety.. they rate cars for a reason... don't you think people pay attention to this???? You bet they do!   That's what partially drives sales... Subaru as an example is a leader in the safety of their cars..... Doesn't it make sense to have a safety rating for motorhomes???

I'm very happy that the Sprinter got such a great rating and crash test review..the Ford Transit has been pretty good as well.....that doesn't mean I would want to try this out... 

Look, you can "joke around" all you want about the "mattress"... BUT, this issue should be taken very seriously...it's a matter of life and death. Or, at least, reducing your exposure ....

Just because the tests were done in a controlled environment doesn't mean they are not valid...how else are you going to test these things? 

[jleamont]

Good thing this road tractor had air bags, oh wait it doesn't nor did it need them. Perhaps a ladder would be helpful right about now 

Manholt, you disconnected the ones in your Jeep ?

[hayesfamily]

 This post is about as dumb tickling and electric eel on a warm summer day ... 

Airbags in a class a motor coach is about the equivalent of Having a fire extinguisher on a gasoline tanker truck. What’s the point, if the tractor catches fire do you really think the driver is going to hang around to try to put that fire out oh by the way, while the explosion is going on behind him

There is practical and then there is just stupid and it’s just not practical. Airbags or not if a motorcoach runs head into our 80,000 pound truck pretty much nobody is going to survive. If a motorcoach meets a 3000 pound car I feel sorry for everybody in the car but the people in the motorcoach are going to survive airbags are not ...  The only airbags a class a coach needs of the ones that create a comfortable bouncy ride as we eat Little cars like Toyota Prius for lunch  

 I’m sorry, I am so sorry for the rant but again this is about as dumb as kissing a bull shark in the lips ... 

 

 

[manholt]

Joe.  Yes I did.  Put the key in the lock and turned both off...Think on it, would you want to be on a 4x4 rocky, slippery trail or "shelf trail of shale", straight up one side and down a thousand + on the other, and your dam Tanaka goes off, when you hit a bump! That don't invoke a pretty picture in my mind.

Mark.  In regards to the 16,000+....you pick a number! 

[manholt]

Keon!  Yea, team!  

Mark.  When they first came out with seat belt's, it was the single lap belt and they where real good, in holding the lower body to the seat, as the upper body part, went out the window!  That's why a lot of people refused to wear them...since my parents lived in Santa Monica, they would send me the Local News paper and I could read all about it.  Todays seat belt's are not much better.  The only seat belt made that is good and will save your life is the harness used in race cars! 

[jleamont]

Carl, now that makes sense with the air bags on the jeep, that would ruin an off road adventure! 

Motorcycles need air bags, motorcycles! Hear me out....If they could deploy based off of the collision avoidance systems early warning it would be fantastic, system would sense a problem blow you right off the seat and out of harms way . We can call it "kick in the shorts safety" KISS for short!

I'm gonna Patent that queen size RV mattress air bag. The driver side one would be entertaining, since my steering wheel doesn't point toward me it points upwards it would be like kissing the side of a mushroom, you would need the hand portion of the wheel to explode and the bag come out of there, who needs hands afterwards . Call me stubbs or Handy 

[manholt]

Joe.  They already have air bag on MC's! (not talking about MC Mammas).

[jleamont]

3 minutes ago, manholt said:

Joe.  They already have air bag on MC's! (not talking about MC Mammas).

But not seat ejecting air bags 

[kaypsmith]

Helium filled deployment would be great, a big helium filled balloon with a body harness attached to the body of the rider, when it goes off, balloon fills with helium which in turn lifts the rider up and safely deflates allowing the rider to escape without a scratch.

[richard5933]

I would tend to agree that there are many things that could be done to make RVs of all types safer. Sadly though, I think that the deciding factor for a lot of this is what are people willing to pay for. More and more I see that the bottom line is what companies are building to, and few customers are willing to pay the extra money it would take to get a safer vehicle. Once you get away from the high-end vehicles, I just don't see a lot of people wanting to spend the necessary money for safety. Not sure that airbags will work in a larger vehicle like a Class A, but there are certainly things that could be done to make them safer.

No offense meant to anyone supporting the way things were done in the 'good ole days', but in many ways those days were not so good. Years ago many (MANY) people died in traffic accidents that people regularly walk away from today. It would be great to just let everyone use their common sense and take the safer approach, but as is proven time after time many people have no common sense.

I'm not sure why there is such a tendency for some people to mock basic safety items like seat belts though. I'm sorry if someone feels that his/her rights are being infringed upon. Well, not really sorry. More sad that they think so. We all as a society decided decades ago that having people die needlessly in preventable accidents was a bad thing. We decided that having babies thrown through car windshields was a bad idea. And, we decided as a society that if requiring seat belts would prevent needless deaths and countless millions in medical expenses then they should be required. If one is so certain that safety features like seat belts are not helping, then I'd suggest a letter to congress asking that they change the law and go back to the 'old days'.

Maybe I'm being too serious here, but I think that the OP asked valid questions. In reality there is not much each of us individually can do to change things, but as a community it would be possible to push for more safety features collectively.

[jleamont]

Richard you made some good points! I believe this has been beaten on more than one angle and we all agree to disagree! 

Certain circumstances i.e. vehicle build determine's what safety items are needed and what are a waste of time and money due to the vehicles design, unnecessary items. The more installed in a vehicle the more that can and will go wrong, ultimately leaving the owner with the burden of paying for repairs, scroll through the technical forums above to emphasize that. 

There is so much technology being introduced into the automotive/truck and RV industry daily that isn't proven, costs an exuberant amount of money and becomes a burden on the owner. Adding more of this stuff that wouldn't work due to the placement would be a larger problem for the consumer. i.e. collapsible steering columns and air bags in a class A would be a waste however better front end construction of a safety structure on certain makes would be a benefit to the occupants as other manufactures have done already, if fiberglass or aluminium skinned is a moot point, what is behind that is the meat and potatoes! Most are not advertised because most consumers just don't care, people want bling an status today the ones that do will research it and seek out the specific brands accordingly. 

Why would air bags and a collapsible steering column be a waste? Cant speak for most but I can for ours, my steering column isn't pointed toward me even tilted all the way down air bag (if equipped) is at most pointed on an angle mostly toward the ceiling, if there was one and it deployed it would pass the top of my head by at least 1', thus rendering both a bad idea, waste of resources and money.

One huge safety item often overlooked is visibility to the driver, in a B or C (not super C) the driver is sitting at level with the majority of the traffic, the class A is up above most automobiles (heck my tires are taller than most automobiles and I sit higher than the top of them) I can see pretty far ahead. Avoiding the accident is the utmost important, that's the reason for roll stability and ABS.

A safe driver is constantly panning around looking at the guy on his phone or the aggressive driver, etc.  I drive with the vehicle in front of me is so far ahead I cant read the license plate, cars jump in front of me I decelerate to maintain my safe following distance. I follow the "Smith System" when driving anything, the coach gives me a much better picture of whats going on in front of me with the view we have. 

So to answer the OP's question on the topic YES, a better safety cage in certain manufactures should become standard, perhaps other safety devices would help, none mentioned above would in most class A's ! Sad to say but the increase in costs will most likely drive 90% of their market away resulting in a decline in sales. 

Richard, that bus equipped with ABS or roll stability?

[mweiner]

1 hour ago, richard5933 said:

I would tend to agree that there are many things that could be done to make RVs of all types safer. Sadly though, I think that the deciding factor for a lot of this is what are people willing to pay for. More and more I see that the bottom line is what companies are building to, and few customers are willing to pay the extra money it would take to get a safer vehicle. Once you get away from the high-end vehicles, I just don't see a lot of people wanting to spend the necessary money for safety. Not sure that airbags will work in a larger vehicle like a Class A, but there are certainly things that could be done to make them safer.

No offense meant to anyone supporting the way things were done in the 'good ole days', but in many ways those days were not so good. Years ago many (MANY) people died in traffic accidents that people regularly walk away from today. It would be great to just let everyone use their common sense and take the safer approach, but as is proven time after time many people have no common sense.

I'm not sure why there is such a tendency for some people to mock basic safety items like seat belts though. I'm sorry if someone feels that his/her rights are being infringed upon. Well, not really sorry. More sad that they think so. We all as a society decided decades ago that having people die needlessly in preventable accidents was a bad thing. We decided that having babies thrown through car windshields was a bad idea. And, we decided as a society that if requiring seat belts would prevent needless deaths and countless millions in medical expenses then they should be required. If one is so certain that safety features like seat belts are not helping, then I'd suggest a letter to congress asking that they change the law and go back to the 'old days'.

Maybe I'm being too serious here, but I think that the OP asked valid questions. In reality there is not much each of us individually can do to change things, but as a community it would be possible to push for more safety features collectively.

Richard, well said. Glad you posted this.

[jleamont]

4 hours ago, MWeiner said:

I'm sure that any "commercial bus" from the 80s or 90s was built for endurance,

Kay, you feel unsafe or feel like it wasn't built for endurance in that 88 MCI?

[hermanmullins]

Time to close this Topic.

Herman