Should FMCA Allow Towable RVs-- Vote NOW

[camarti1]

So, then, who got to vote on initiating changes to the constitution? Was this something voting members brought forward? Is this a product of the governing board? I ask, because when looking at the order of how the documents rank, the constitution should take precedent. Bylaws, which direct actions of the various and numerous groups, are directions to those to live by, under the constitution. It would seem to this observer, the vehicle should be the constitution, and the bylaws should be the driver. If there is no vehicle, there is not a need for a driver. Which of course brings me back to the 20 voting members and their ability to change or halt this current direction the FMCA is taking. If the drivers are trying to tell the vehicle which way to go, and there is not a vehicle to direct, then the steering committee, the gas pedal committee, the spark plug committee, the back seat committee, the headrest committee, and so on have no value. The vehicle will take direction from the committees, but the vehicle is still the focus of the trip. Ideally, all of these groups would work in tandem, but upon trying to read and comprehend all of the levels of committees and who has precedent over whom, it boggles the brain. 

I had three strokes in 2005, and so my ability to read and comprehend, as well as question the things I am takes some time to process. I still strongly feel the constitution, as the overriding document, allows for 20 voting members, that are in good standing, to make a motion from the "floor", even at this late date. I understand the process as it was developed, but I do not see where it is written it is only process to be allowed. Hence, my attraction to the word "or". 

How does one go about getting onto one of these numerous committees that make these decisions? Are they all local to Ohio? Are these people paid a salary? Is there an expectation the "committee members" are available to be at these various meetings in person?  

Okay, me and my 20 voting members ideology are going to think on this some more, and try to come to an understanding as to why 20 voting members cannot stop this train while it is still on track, before it derails itself.

Thanks to all who have given of your time and talent, it again, is appreciated.

[rpelatt]

40 minutes ago, camarti1 said:

So, then, who got to vote on initiating changes to the constitution? Was this something voting members brought forward? Is this a product of the governing board? I ask, because when looking at the order of how the documents rank, the constitution should take precedent. Bylaws, which direct actions of the various and numerous groups, are directions to those to live by, under the constitution. It would seem to this observer, the vehicle should be the constitution, and the bylaws should be the driver. If there is no vehicle, there is not a need for a driver. Which of course brings me back to the 20 voting members and their ability to change or halt this current direction the FMCA is taking. If the drivers are trying to tell the vehicle which way to go, and there is not a vehicle to direct, then the steering committee, the gas pedal committee, the spark plug committee, the back seat committee, the headrest committee, and so on have no value. The vehicle will take direction from the committees, but the vehicle is still the focus of the trip. Ideally, all of these groups would work in tandem, but upon trying to read and comprehend all of the levels of committees and who has precedent over whom, it boggles the brain. 

I had three strokes in 2005, and so my ability to read and comprehend, as well as question the things I am takes some time to process. I still strongly feel the constitution, as the overriding document, allows for 20 voting members, that are in good standing, to make a motion from the "floor", even at this late date. I understand the process as it was developed, but I do not see where it is written it is only process to be allowed. Hence, my attraction to the word "or". 

How does one go about getting onto one of these numerous committees that make these decisions? Are they all local to Ohio? Are these people paid a salary? Is there an expectation the "committee members" are available to be at these various meetings in person?  

Okay, me and my 20 voting members ideology are going to think on this some more, and try to come to an understanding as to why 20 voting members cannot stop this train while it is still on track, before it derails itself.

Thanks to all who have given of your time and talent, it again, is appreciated.

Certainly with you on this one. If you look back earlier on this thread it sure appears that at least $250,000 was spent in violation of the bylaws, and as was answered a few posts above there was a "survey"  done a number of years ago that came up with the average age of 71(?).Now I'm wondering just how that was conducted.  I certainly feel there has been a lack of transparency in this whole process. 

[BillAdams]

I clear mis-stated my expectations and I apologize .  I don't believe the accounting firm will make up the results but rather so many folks associated with this deal will vote, and influence those voting, to ensure the measure passes.  It was reported earlier that much discussion took place with regionals and the local club members who overwhelmingly reported that the membership wanted this change.  I meant to indicate that the way this has been setup, so few will vote, the ones that do will be heavily weighted toward the yes vote.

I guess I should have been getting magazines so hopefully I would have at least seen the ballot but, as has been mentioned previously, with the average age of the membership being 71 years old, that leaves a lot of substantially older folks paying no attention to whatever the insert or "cut this out an mail it in" page might have been published.

I guess I am going to have to block Manholt as he clearly doesn't like a former member like me who has been a member since 1994 and is REALLY upset about the upcoming change including the link on the home page that FMCA is getting ready to remodel.

I must also say that I think the fix is in with the World Series as well and that Houston will win for the first time ever right after a major disaster strikes the city.

[isaaac1]

Part of my problem with the whole thing is the one sided promotion of the deal.  I was at the six state rally this week and the comments from the podium were a distinctive we need you to vote yes on this, with no time given to any opposing view.

[camarti1]

Good Morning Bill,

So glad to see that Houston will win for the first time in the World Serious.  Every one needs a first time, as we have all been new at something at least once in our lives.

I don't see  a need for anyone to block someone over what I call a minor skirmish. But heh, what do I know, I am still new, and look forward to everyone working together to make the FMCA a member driven entity that is truly in the member's corner.  Sounds as if such a task is daunting, but in reality, as soon as I finish doing some more reading and comprehending, we may already have the answers to some of my outstanding questions. I am still looking for an opening for the members to have a way of discontinuing this vote before it goes to the CPA's, and have it benefit the members needs and opinions.

Bill, are you a current member or a former member? Do you have active voting rights as of this moment? Are you a member in good standing to help win my points of contention that I suspect I will be writing soon? Or at least sometime today?  I am in AZ, so its 6:37 am here, so I will go and get a cup of courage and start my arduous trek into the labyrinth of committees and boards, and how symbiotic this whole group has become. It's as if it feeds off of itself, rather then reach out for new ideas, in my humble opinion.  

Now, where did that coffee cup go! 

[camarti1]

34 minutes ago, Isaaac1 said:

Part of my problem with the whole thing is the one sided promotion of the deal.  I was at the six state rally this week and the comments from the podium were a distinctive we need you to vote yes on this, with no time given to any opposing view.

This is my greatest concern with the structure of the organization. This organization, as a non-profit, should  have a lateral chain of command, where each entity is equal to the next, yet distinct in its function. What it appears to this reader is a corporation which has an inverted pyramid as its structure, making the top more powerful than the membership. But, those are my assumptions for right now. I still have a lot more reading to do, and it is difficult for me to read and comprehend a  great deal since my strokes. It is, indeed, a slow, timely process. It takes me quite a while just to respond to these messages and sound like a sane human being (that will be the day).

[aztec7fan]

1 hour ago, Isaaac1 said:

Part of my problem with the whole thing is the one sided promotion of the deal.  I was at the six state rally this week and the comments from the podium were a distinctive we need you to vote yes on this, with no time given to any opposing view.

I agree, same thing with the website and magazine.  Usually, when asked to vote on something, I'm given the pros, and the arguments against.  Not in this case.  All we heard was "this must be done to save FMCA!", And This is all wonderful and positive, with no opposing viewpoint.

[manholt]

Anyone tells me "I'm a sane human".  I will run, not walk, way, far away!

[elkhartjim]

I would like to pass along a comment from some new motorhome and new members of FMCA.

"If we had read the forum on FMCA about letting towables become members we would have never joined."

I can't help but wonder if FMCA is not getting some new members because they are reading this forum.

 

[steve56]

As an outsider looking in I popped into whos online, 76 pages of people over 2276 viewing FMCA forums. 99 percent were guests. I spotted a few regular members I have seen posts on this topic and other areas of the forums. There's the answer convert those guest to members, maybe a lot of guests are looking to see how the vote is going? Most guests I saw were looking at the other info the site offers. Change is coming to FMCA, for better or worse, the Prestige of Motor Coach won't diminish. Today's 5th wheel and  TT  expand to lavash designs with almost all options a typical MH has other than a drivetrain.

We planned to join FMCA  and visited Perry, 2016 event to gain info on buying a Class A. We were a few years younger and basically encouraged to join by many of the members. We ended up buying an MH late in 2016 and I had some health issues pop up, now recovering back surgery. We are almost ready to head out for a stroll from the east to the west and will join FMCA and the Roadside assistance program. Joined 10-28-17  We may make the Indigo event and the happening at the Q. 

 

 

 

 

[camarti1]

1 hour ago, Steve56 said:

As an outsider looking in I popped into whos online, 76 pages of people over 2276 viewing FMCA forums. 99 percent were guests. I spotted a few regular members I have seen posts on this topic and other areas of the forums. There's the answer convert those guest to members, maybe a lot of guests are looking to see how the vote is going? Most guests I saw were looking at the other info the site offers. Change is coming to FMCA, for better or worse, the Prestige of Motor Coach won't diminish. Today's 5th wheel and  TT  expand to lavash designs with almost all options a typical MH has other than a drivetrain.

We planned to join FMCA  and visited Perry, 2016 event to gain info on buying a Class A. We were a few years younger and basically encouraged to join by many of the members. We ended up buying an MH late in 2016 and I had some health issues pop up, now recovering back surgery. We are almost ready to head out for a stroll from the east to the west and will join FMCA and the Roadside assistance program. Joined 10-28-17  We may make the Indigo event and the happening at the Q. 

 

 

 

Welcome to the group Steve56. May your health be great from now on, and dearly wish you the happiest motor coaching for years to come

[steve56]

44 minutes ago, camarti1 said:

Welcome to the group Steve56. May your health be great from now on, and dearly wish you the happiest motor coaching for years to come

Thank you, sir, the same for you and  your family. 

[camarti1]

55 minutes ago, elkhartjim said:

I would like to pass along a comment from some new motorhome and new members of FMCA.

"If we had read the forum on FMCA about letting towables become members we would have never joined."

I can't help but wonder if FMCA is not getting some new members because they are reading this forum.

 

It appears to me, in a lot of cases, the best way to get some news is to read the forum. What I read in the statement above, these particular folks don't want towables admitted to the FMCA. I asked the question about FMCA on the Big Rig RV site on Facebook. Of all of the people on this site at any given time, I received two responses. One likes the magazine, and the other likes the FMCA assist.  Two answers in 30 minutes. That is not, in any way, a positive turn out.

[gulya]

On September 18, 2017 at 8:03 PM, gulya said:

I still feel we don't do enough to engage people A B and C we meet and sell FMCA. 12 % is still a of a lot of people. I still think part of the problem is image, some people view us as a bunch of elitist, non inclusive old farts and I think some of us work hard to live up to that image, including a few on this forum. 

I will say again we have not done enough to encourage new Motorcoach owners, young Motorcoach owners and non member Motorcoach owners.  Talk is cheap 

[camarti1]

I truly believe the membership needs to be expanded to an all motorcoach base before including towables. I also feel marketing efforts to attract this base has been less than stellar. I have spent the morning, since 6 a.m. MST reading, and then reading some more about the structure, rules, bylaws, and handbooks. I even had a cup of coffee this morning to make sure I was awake and able to stay focused on the task at hand. I haven't drank coffee for over seven years.

There will be officer elections this year, and it is interesting there are only one candidate for each position, so why even have an election. What seems to be happening, in my humble opinion, is a coronation of those already deemed the new officers. Is this what is left from the culling down by the election committee?

Just read the FMCA's Strategic plan, dated August 31, 2001. This struck me as what FMCA should be about and adhering to. What happened to these values?

Core Values are basic, timeless guiding principles. The following Core Values reflect the spirit of FMCA: ·

Members are the focus ·

Family, Fun, & Fellowship ·

Integrity ·

Sharing common interests ·

Volunteerism ·

Motorhome Safety & Education

Anyone else notice the first statement that is bolded above? If members are truly the focus, then I have to ask, based upon what I have spent a significant amount of time reading, why are so many of the decisions made by groups behind closed doors, sans input from the general membership? Something is written by group A,  sent over to Group B for review, if it is passable it is then sent to group C, if not, it will be referred back to group A, and start the process all over again. And it can take up to how many months to pass these ideas back and forth?  I truly am saddened by the layers upon layers of processes, most of which the average member cannot add to or participate in. Every segment of the organization has two and three layers of groups of people which from President on down. I now understand why most folks will not join a chapter. If they will not join a chapter, then they are not given a voice. No voice, no representation at the next level. If the next level doesn't have a fair number to reflect the true will of the member, then things happen such as a vote to allow towables. This type of referendum, in my extremely humble opinion, was done in a vacuum. Solitary people come together to meet and vote, no other members outside of the delegates are allowed. 

Governing Board: A statement which sticks out and screams to me:  Recognize that authority rests only in the Governing Board and is exercised within official meetings and embodied in the acts adopted therein. Individual members never have any legal right to obligate the Governing Board or FMCA except by voting in assembled meetings or by mail balloting, and/or endowing the National Officers with delegated authority.  Scary stuff to me. 

[camarti1]

51 minutes ago, gulya said:

I will say again we have not done enough to encourage new Motorcoach owners, young Motorcoach owners and non member Motorcoach owners.  Talk is cheap 

I totally agree with you. There are too many MH owners not to have a greater membership.

[camarti1]

13 hours ago, rpelatt said:

Certainly with you on this one. If you look back earlier on this thread it sure appears that at least $250,000 was spent in violation of the bylaws, and as was answered a few posts above there was a "survey"  done a number of years ago that came up with the average age of 71(?).Now I'm wondering just how that was conducted.  I certainly feel there has been a lack of transparency in this whole process. 

I read the Constitution, the by-laws, and the members guide, and nowhere is there stipulation as to money limits which can be spent by a committee or a member of the executive board. As a matter of fact, it is read that the corporation may do all that is needed to procure services it feels are needed. So despite what the bylaws state, it is spelled out within the bylaws there is no cap on spending on whatever the corporation feels it needs. 

[rpelatt]

56 minutes ago, camarti1 said:

I read the Constitution, the by-laws, and the members guide, and nowhere is there stipulation as to money limits which can be spent by a committee or a member of the executive board. As a matter of fact, it is read that the corporation may do all that is needed to procure services it feels are needed. So despite what the bylaws state, it is spelled out within the bylaws there is no cap on spending on whatever the corporation feels it needs. 

I was referring to Dons2346 post on Oct.1: 

"  ................... I firmly believe we need to vote with the recommendation of the Board.  They have studied the issues involved and know the subjects much better than I could ever do so nor want to do so at this stage of my life.  I believe they are good well meaning people who want the very best for this organization................... "

Sundance, here is the problem with your analogy. There was zero study done on the subject of "recreation vehicles" becoming a part of FMCA. From here on out, I'll use "towable". Not one towable club or manufacturer was contacted about this endeavor, not one. This was brought about by one person and one only. In fact this person, at one of his rallies had a towable show up. He took his treasurer over to the trailer and told him he was not welcome and the treasurer wrote a check for the rally fees and he was told to leave. Now all of a sudden he thinks this is the greatest idea since sliced bread.

Another example of the executive board using bad judgement is the giving of $250,000 to the owner of rVillage, a facebook wanna be. The so called details of the gift is that FMCA will supposedly receive 5% interest on the money OR the owner has the option to issue FMCA stock in the company which is supposed to happen in 2019. This info was found out when I requested a copy of the current annual audit. It had to be covered there to justify the $250,000. You might think this is great in that we will get something however our investments are regulated by our Policy & Procedures. Those tell the organization what investments can be invested in. One that we cannot invest in is private stock. rVillage is not listed on any stock exchange. During the last GB meeting I questioned the then treasurer about the 5% interest and had we received it yet. The treasurer informed the entire GB that the "money is gone". Not one member of the GB stood up and raised any issue with it.

Any member can get any document from FMCA by calling and asking to talk to "membership services". You can get meeting minutes from any meeting, monthly treasurer reports, etc.
 

[camarti1]

rpellat, Thank You so much for the clarification, I had not asked for those documents, was just keeping my browsing to the available on line writings I have access to. I am still hung up on 20 members in good standing should be able to cut this off right now and table the vote for adding towables to the membership. Especially when using the core document stressing members are first, which would then supersede all of this other committee stuff.

[rpelatt]

31 minutes ago, camarti1 said:

rpellat, Thank You so much for the clarification, I had not asked for those documents, was just keeping my browsing to the available on line writings I have access to. I am still hung up on 20 members in good standing should be able to cut this off right now and table the vote for adding towables to the membership. Especially when using the core document stressing members are first, which would then supersede all of this other committee stuff.

No problem. Thanks for all the research you are doing! I bet even Bill Adams would renew his membership for a chance to bring this vote to a halt

[camarti1]

37 minutes ago, rpelatt said:

No problem. Thanks for all the research you are doing! I bet even Bill Adams would renew his membership for a chance to bring this vote to a halt

Ya think??? I am doing some additional thinking on all of this, # 1 because I really have over taxed my damaged brain, and 2nd, sometimes ya just need to walk away for a little while and then an answer will come to ya. I think Bill has his heart in the right place, he is just frustrated, like so many are, over this process.

[BillAdams]

Yep, I could be a member again in 2 minutes if this whole thing about 20 people was true. 

The real question is who is classified as a voting member when it comes to rule of law and not a poll of the membership to be used by those who can vote to cast their ballots.

[elkhartjim]

3 hours ago, elkhartjim said:

I would like to pass along a comment from some new motorhome and new members of FMCA.

"If we had read the forum on FMCA about letting towables become members we would have never joined."

I can't help but wonder if FMCA is not getting some new members because they are reading this forum.

 

 

2 hours ago, camarti1 said:

It appears to me, in a lot of cases, the best way to get some news is to read the forum. What I read in the statement above, these particular folks don't want towables admitted to the FMCA. I asked the question about FMCA on the Big Rig RV site on Facebook. Of all of the people on this site at any given time, I received two responses. One likes the magazine, and the other likes the FMCA assist.  Two answers in 30 minutes. That is not, in any way, a positive turn out.

The reason they joined was for the tire program, however, they found a dealer that beat the FMCA program price.

They voted yes to go along with management.  Their words not mine.

They will not renew their membership as they see no value. When I asked them about the assist program, they replied they never go more than a few hundred miles from home.

 

[camarti1]

39 minutes ago, elkhartjim said:

 

The reason they joined was for the tire program, however, they found a dealer that beat the FMCA program price.

They voted yes to go along with management.  Their words not mine.

They will not renew their membership as they see no value. When I asked them about the assist program, they replied they never go more than a few hundred miles from home.

 

too bad, these are the members we need to retain. Not only is there a need for bringing new members, but retaining the ones we got, especially if this towable thing goes through. 3

[camarti1]

1 hour ago, BillAdams said:

Yep, I could be a member again in 2 minutes if this whole thing about 20 people was true. 

The real question is who is classified as a voting member when it comes to rule of law and not a poll of the membership to be used by those who can vote to cast their ballots.

Bill, my understanding of a member in good standing does not come from the FMCA, but rather a larger corporation that was also non-profit. This would be dues are paid, there are not any grievances or pending litigation against you, and finally, you are active within the community, which would mean the FMCA community. The rule of law would support the definition as I gave it, as I worked with our corporate attorney at the time to write this rule. Active could mean staying on the boards and offering assistance when asked, up to going out and helping Habitat for Humanity slam in a few nails. Me, I went to homes of the elderly and help clean up the outside for them for a few hours in the morning about once a month. What a difference it makes in someone's life to have such a small kindness done. It really wasn't much to pull a few weeds and rake some rocks. 

I will let you know if I am going to throw out another motion for the 20 people, and when. I am still thinking on it, and need my head to brain to calm down so I can get some new ideas. Now I remember why I don't drink coffee in the morning anymore. Caffeine is not always a friend.