Inverter/GFI

[sundancev]

Earlier I sent this to Brett due to a forum post he had posted in response to an electrical problem posted by an electrician.  I had forgotten how to post to the forums but while reading Brett's response to the electrician's problem I found I was able to message him directly.  As I continued to read other postings, somehow the light came on and I found I could create a new topic post, hence this posting with apologies to Brett for writing him directly.   

Recently while traveling through PA, we ran into all day rain storms.  We operate our fridge from the old ice maker circuit powered by the inverter when traveling.  That night after a very long day driving, Marcia mentioned the fridge (Samsung 110 volt residential) was not working, then noticed the microwave was also not working.   A little detective work later, I found the 15amp Circuit breaker on the Xantrax Inverter was tripped.  I reset and some of the 110v ciruits came back but the fridge did not along with a couple of other circuits.  A little more detective work later, I found the GFI in the bathroom tripped.  I reset and the circuits were on for a few seconds and then GFI tripped again.  I stopped at Lowes and picked up a new GFI and installed.  After installing and turning power back on, the new GFI tripped.  I thought perhaps with all the rain we had been in some may have leaked into one of the duplex fixtures.  I started taking all the duplex fixtures out one by one and inspecting to see if water was present.   I assumed the only reason for a GFI tripping was due to water.  I have found no evidence of water in any of the duplex outlets downstream that I have been able to find.  After reading the forum post related to GFI issues I found one posted by 120 VAC Wiring Problem: 2004 Sportcoach Elite in which the writer who was an electrician, indicated he had read a February Post from you about an Inverter Breaker perhaps causing the problem.  I cannot find that article.  Could you give me some advice on how to find.  I sort of think it may have been in 2016.  We are near the Fleetwood service center but their earliest appointment availability is July.  I am pulling what little bit of hair I have left out.  Our 2004 Fleetwood Providence has been good to us, but alas, perhaps it is telling us it is getting old.   Since we live in it full time, we may be putting much more age on it than normal anyway.  Any thoughts you have would be much appreciated.  I have the fridge plugged into the Microwave outlet for the time being in order to keep it operating.  It does not appear to be a GFI protected duplex.  The wire that I have been able to see in the pulled duplex outlets look surprisingly good.  The wire looks to be very good quality (size and rubber coating.)  I am wondering if the 15 amp circuit to the Inverter could be causing the problem and if so how to check it.  Thank you to all the responders in advance.  You do us a wonderful service

.Sundancev

 

[dickandlois]

Sundancev,  Could you send some information regarding your inverter?   I'm thinking it is a Xantrex 454 series. There are 2 - 20 amp circuit breakers in the units or 1 - 20 amp and 1 - 15 amp in some cases. The GIF's can trip when the inverter ground is loose that runs between the inverter frame ground  and the electrical ground buss at the main breaker panel  - 50 amp coach system often have a sub panel that powers the inverters and there is a possibility of a loose ground at the ground buss of that panel. 

         I found the 15amp Circuit breaker on the Xantrax Inverter was tripped.  I reset and some of the 110v ciruits came back but the fridge did not along with a couple of other circuits.  A little more detective work later, I found the GFI in the bathroom tripped.  I reset and the circuits were on for a few seconds and then GFI tripped again.

   Will the refrigerator work when connected to an extension cord connected ether the campground 120 volt outlet or at home?   

Where the inverter is grounded does not matter / just needs a good ground connection at both ends of that bare copper wire. They do loosen up as one drives down the road and its one of the items to put on your yearly check list - Like check all the power connections on the breaker panels, shore power connections, generator power "J" box and the transfer switch.

If you have reset those two breakers on the inverter / them make sure the input 30 amp breaker has not tripped.

Just a note, I have one GIF that is located inside a cabinet near the bedroom that gets tripped  and out of sight out of mind issues comes up for me from time to time.

Do you have the owners manual for the inverter? 

Rich.

[sundancev]

Rich, thanks so much for the reply.  Actually the refrigerator works fine on the shore power and the inverter when unplugged from shore power as long as it is not plugged in to the circuit with the GFI that keeps tripping.  There are at least 3 circuits fed by the 30 amp inverter breaker in the Main Panel.  Another circuit on the same 30 amp Inverter breaker for the microwave runs the fridge just fine.  In addition another circuit under dining room table that only seems to have duplex outlets attached will run the fridge fine if I use extension cord to plug the fridge into that outlet.  So problem seems to be in the GFI (locate at the bathroom sink).  The outlet for fridge is also in line with (same circuit downstream.)   Problem may well have nothing to do with inverter.  I just saw a reference to inverter on one of Brett's reply to an electrician who had a similar problem with one of his GFI circuits that ended up being tied to the 15 amp breaker on the Inverter.  My inverter has a 20amp breaker and a 15amp breaker.  To get by until I can find the problem, I am plugged into the microwave duplex outlet temporarily.  Since fridge ony draws 3.8 amps I am not overly worried aboiut drawing to much on that particular circuit although I do want to remove it from there as soon as I can find the solution to the circuit with the GFI problem.  When we installed the new Samsung residential fridge, we plugged it in the old icemaker circuit which is adjacent to the old frdge duplex outlet.  We used the icemaker outlet since the icemaker outlet worked off the inverter. 

 

I hope I am not making things overly complicated by introducing to many subjects into the conversation.  The problem I have to solve immediately seems to be the GFI Circuit that originates in the bathroom and runs the old icemaker outlet, an outlet over the kitchen sink and an outlet alongside the kitchen cabinetry next to a love seat.  There is one other electrical junction I have found over the microwave space where lots of wiring comes together.  Unless I drop the microwave I cannot easiy access that box (which coincidently is attached to the roof of the slide).  I plan to drop the microwave to access that box, but it is some degree of work and I thought I would wait to hear from you experts prior to taking that step in case it has something to do with the inverter issue that Brett had mentioned.  Thanks again.  Paul

[obedb]

Too much info!🙄 GFIs are very sensitive to improper grounding. If the system worked flawlessly and it is now causing problems it is either a failure of the GFI or a problem with the ground.  

[sundancev]

Byron thank you for the reply.  Since I have used now three GFI's receptacles with same outcome, it must be improper ground based on your reply.  Can you suggest what I can do to fix i.e. add another grouind wire to the GFI  from another point on the coach.  I assume since it has the copper wire ground and the ground on the duplex fitting side opposite the hot side of the duplex, that perhaps those two ground points are not working.  That said, I did put my volt meter on the black and white wire at bottom of the GFI and recorded 117 volts so it must be ok to that point???   Thanks Paul

[manholt]

Since you replaced your fridge, with a residential unit, I would replace the GFI with a 20A or if yours is a 20, then a 25A.  I think you have too much on your current GFI.  Start up of fridge will spike above the operating amps. 

[dickandlois]

Sundance, From the feedback you offered, think I would change the outlet that the refrigerator  is plugged into. When they build the coaches they do not use the top brand outlets and they are installed using the wire connection that uses the push on connection not the screw terminals and if the ground connection at the out let is defective that could be the issue.

Think you mentioned there is an outlet and the GFI is there also, A test might be to plug the extention into the bath room out let and see if the GFI trips - you replaced that GFI if I remember correctly and the ground issue might be in the bath room outlet - if that works replace the bathroom outlet and the one for the rfergerator.

 the hardest problems to find are often the simplest to repair.

Rich. 

[sundancev]

Thanks guys.  With absolutely nothing plugged into any of the outlets on the GFI Circuit in question, the GFI trips within 2 seconds of having breaker turned on so do not think amperage has anything to do with this particular problem.  I deliberately did not plug anything in to the outlets in order to test the GFI.  

[wayne77590]

Okay, going out on a limb here. GFI's are polarization sensitive. That is, the hot wire had to be connected to the hot side of the GFI and the GFI should have a raised area that says HOT. That would be the black wire in any normal installation.  Anything on that same line that has been replaced or has a bad ground could be the culprit.  When the GFI is replaced it is important to match the hot wire to the side of the hot side of the GFI.  When you said you replaced the GFI a few times and it trips within 2 second indicates that a wire some where along that GFI's line is messed up. This may not be of much help but it is important for anyone else changing out a receptacle to make sure the polarization, hot to hot side, is maintained.

[manholt]

Wayne, that happened to Linda.  She had her bathroom GFI replaced by a Mobil Tech and he managed to get the wrong wire on the hot side (she would not let me change it out), so it happened twice more.  The fourth time I watched him & he was about to do it again, when I stopped him...make a long story short...he was doing it on purpose because of her sex.  Yes, she got her $ 600 back, after I gave him a choice.

[sundancev]

Thanks to you Wayne and Carl.  I was very careful when I installed the new GFI duplex outlets to insure the wires went back the same way.  I even pulled one wire at a time and installed in the new GFI in the same spot to insure I did not reverse the polarity.  My plan this am is to disconnect power, reset the GFI and run test wire to all the outlets in each circuit for continuity in an attempt to trace the problem that way.  After sleeping on it all night, and wondering if the Inverter connection has any thing to do with it, I am also going to disconnect the downstream wires from the inverter and then turn the power on.  If the GFI does not trip, I sort of think the potential inverter wiring problem is eliminated from this particular issue. 

I also mentioned to Brett via message this morning, I have one other concern after sleeping/dreaming about the problem all night.  Two weeks ago a friend helped me install a new 3/4" plywood floor for the new fridge to sit on.  The old floor was about 4" short of allowing the new fridge to fit all 4 wheels on.  When we sat in a camprgound in S Miami all winter not moving, it was no problem.  While traveling in the NE, we noticed the very bumpy roads seemed to allow the new fridge to move around a little so we decided to pull the fridge and install a new thicker and longer floor for the fridge to sit on.  One of my old friends living in Cape Cod helped move the fridge and fasten the new floor.  He had some long sheet rock screws that he was using to fasten the new floor to some 3/4" firring strips that was part of the old floor foundation.  I was concerned with all the wiring under the floor that ran from the rear of the motor home forward, we might hit one of the wires if we embedded the longer screws to deep.  After we screwed the floor down everything worked great.  The fridge foundation was level with all four wheels down and was very solid.  Most important the fridge continued to purr.  This week we went through NY and PA and hit some terribly bumpy roads.  At the same time we had lots of non stop drizzling rain.  I am now wondering if the bumpy roads has been just enough to have an extra long screw penetrate an otherwise benign wire sitting near it.  The cavity under the fridge floor is not very deep, perhaps 3-4" but has lots of wire and furnace duct (flexible).  All of your thoughts and suggestions are helpful.  Paul

[sundancev]

Standby for the rest of the story?????  I have things working for the moment???????  If it continues to work for the next 8 hours I will tell you what I did.  

[wayne77590]

Well, more than 2 seconds would be a big improvement.

[wayne77590]

p.s., I'll be in Kissimmee last part of June.
Any where close to you?

[sundancev]

Hello all.  For those interested,  here is the rest of the story.  Wayne wrote about the hot side of the GFI and how the hot wire had to be wired there etc.  When I installed the two new GFI circuits I had blindly followed wire by wire installation.  I would take black wire out of defective GFI and put in same slot in new one, then the white wires etc.  After reading Wayne's missive I started dreaming abouit the problem during the night and woke up realizing I had never actually volt tested the wires coming into to the GFI outlet box to see if I was hooking up the correct wires to line feed and the correct ones to load feed.  I simply followed what had worked for almost 8 years on the original install.  Turns out somehow the original install had worked despite being installed backwards.  The original GFI had panel wires in holes for load rather than for line.  Rookie mistake even though I am still a 75 y/o rookie, I knew enough to put hot line wires from panel to line holes etc.  Good lesson for me after spending hours checking wiring, duplex outlets, lights and fridge.  Never assume anything even if it seemed to work in the past.  I was very lucky in more ways than one.  Many thanks to you all for your advice.  Once again FMCA forum posters streered me in the right direction.  Everything is working well at this point  Fridge is down to 37F on Inverter.  Paul

[obedb]

OK Sundance! Eight hours are up. I would have tried a new ground connection, but when I suggest anything unorthodox, I usually get hollered at by at least Carl. GFIs have caused trouble around our house of 41 years. Copper plumbing  is a good source of ground.😎

[obedb]

Paul/ Must have been composing my thoughts while you were writing your success story. Good for you. Old guys rule!😉

[wayne77590]

Whoopee! I went out on a limb and it didn't break.

Happy to hear that it is fixed.

[obedb]

A GFI circuit that had worked well for a long time and stops working even with a new install sounded like a bad ground to me. I have experienced problems with GFIs over the years in our house. Need I point out that once grounded properly it should stay grounded because it is not subject to vibration or corrosion? 

Not wired correctly and  still worked??🤔😳

Way to go Wayne!✌️

[kaypsmith]

Glad you found the problem, but at your earliest convenience,  I  would move that fridge out of the way and replace those too long for the correct size if for nothing else, safety sake. I notice that a poster had commented on replacing the 15 amp gfi for a 20 amp or 25 amp, gfi does not look for amperage, only difference of load between hot and neutral, anything over 4 milliamps will trip gfi, not amperage, if over amperage the circuit breaker at the breaker box will trip not the gfi. And as stated by yourself, when in doubt, check it out, never take electricity for granted.