Carrier Air V Heat pump control upgrade

[3175375]

I have a 2010 38' Holiday Rambler Endeavor that has 2 Carrier Air V Heat Pump air conditioners that are tied into 2 propane powered furnaces.

Recently, I had travelled away from the RV during the holidays. During my week plus away, there was a power outage at the RV.

When the shore power is removed, the Carrier air conditioner (roof top) and furnace controller turns off. That created a problem. Here is a little background information regarding the air conditioner / furnace control:

There is no fixed thermostat / air conditioner / furnace control that is 'wall mounted' on these 2 devices. They are controlled by a RF remote control. Control is split into 5 functions - Furnace, Cool, Dry, Fan and Heat. Heat includes using the heat pump function of the Carrier Air V Heat Pump when the temperature differential (inside versus outside) provides sufficient capacity for the heat pump to function.

Back to what happened. When we left the RV, I turned off the water heater, ice maker and turned off the water at the spigot. I set both furnaces to 55 degrees F and thought all would be well.

What happened was a power drop out occurred sometime during my time away, shut off both Carrier units and with the cold temperatures, caused the water, soda and other liquids in the RV to freeze.

The water in the lines, as it began to freeze, had no where to go as it turned to a solid (ice) and caused the entire coach water filter housing to fracture, a PEX adapter on the back of the water heater, the spray nozzle attached to the toilet and the shower head (I don't understand why the toilet sprayer and shower head cracked as they are on the other side of their respective valves, which were closed, but it really doesn't matter).

Obviously frustrated, I fixed the issues and am back in operation. However, I wanted to solve the problem from occurring in the future, even though mitigation methods (open valves in the coach, etc) would prevent the water filter and other things from rupturing or cracking, it would not prevent the soda cans inside the coach from bursting (one did and 5 others were on their way) and the fabric softener turned to gel.

So, I looked into 3 things. 1) Install a temperature monitor (I have installed 2 devices - a ring brand flood / freeze sensor - all it tells me is that water has gotten into the area where the sensor is places or that freezing temperatures are eminent) and 2) a temperature / humidity monitor that provides analog temperature and humidity readings. the ring flood / freeze sensor ties into the ring alarm system I have installed and the temp / humidity sensor attaches to the wifi I have set up in the coach (currently tied into a service provided at the RV park, but I also have a device that uses cell networks for internet / wifi router capability, but I am disgusted with it as it is horrifically limited on data capacity and throughput). and 3) a way to control the Carrier Air V Heat Pump units remotely via the internet, much like an EcoBee thermostat for your home.

 

In searching for a solution to #3 above, I learned that Carrier has discontinued the Air V Heat Pump units that I have and the remote controls are no longer available, except for eBay. I searched and found a product called Breez Plus by Cielo. It provides RF control of furnaces and air conditioners, much like the remote control for the Carrier Air V Heat Pump units on my coach. I ordered one, received it and proceeded installing it. It attached to the wifi I have and I proceeded to configure the device. Unfortunately, I could not find the Carrier Air V Heat Pump listed on the manufacturer listing and the 'self detect / configure' feature on the Breez Plus software (app on my phone) didn't detect the signal coming from the Carrier Air V Heat Pump remote control.

So, I called Cielo and spoke to 2 technical support people. The first person was called away for some reason, hence why I worked with the second person. I described the issue to him and he had me do a number of things that had him 'capture' the commands from the Carrier Air V remote control. He walked me through the temperature ranges and modes, and said that he had sufficient information to compile a configuration that should work for my situation.

He said that he would get back to me within the next week or so with a configuration. The NEXT DAY, he called me, he loaded a configuration and we walked through the operation of the Carrier Air V unit using the Cielo Breez Plus which was being remotely controlled by my smart phone through the internet. I have since had the chance to use it for a couple of days and it does the job. However, I am going to talk to the Cielo tech support staff about making a few changes. 1) Change the temp range for heat from 64 to 90 deg F to 55 to 81. I don't need 90 degrees as a set point for my furnaces! Also, while away, I like to set the furnace control point to 55 to save some propane. 2) discuss with them some additional features of the unit as a schedule for 'set back' to have the furnaces dial back down to 55 degrees when we sleep.

The Cielo Breez Plus together with the ring flood / freeze alarm and the cargo bay temperature / humidity sensor solves my problem of loss of temperature management in this way:

If power is lost and the furnaces turn off, when the temperature outside drops, I will receive an alert from the temp / humidity sensor (I set an alarm at 37 degrees) telling me that the temp is falling. Also, if I lose AC power, I do get an alert from Ring as it goes to battery an cellular backup upon loss of power (I don't lose Ring power for short times as I have it powered by a UPS, but I DO LOSE Internet as the server here at the RV park shuts off, killing my internet access). I then can cycle power via the Cielo Breez Plus and get the furnaces back up and running. I will see the temperature then rise as the furnaces bring the temps up (I will see this from the temp rise on the Cielo unit as well as the cargo bay temp sensor).

 

I will continue to exercise the Cielo Breez Plus and learn more about its capabilities. I will also conduct a test in the next day or two to verify my recovery plan is sound (I also will write up a procedure for recovery and have it on my laptop and cell phone as I get older, I have increased 'selective memory' or 'senior moments'.

 

I am grateful that God has given me the ability to work through these kind of situation and wanted to post this information in that it might help someone else.

All in all, I am happy with the Cielo Breez Plus unit to solve the issue of regaining control of the furnaces if a power drop out occurs while I am away I will likely order a second unit for the second air conditioner / furnace that's in the bedroom of the coach.

 

[wildebill308]

Welcome  to the forum. 

4 hours ago, 3175375 said:

What happened was a power drop out occurred sometime during my time away, shut off both Carrier units and with the cold temperatures, caused the water, soda and other liquids in the RV to freeze.

Help me understand. What happend to your 12 volt power in the coach? Both propane furnaces run on 12 volt power. Your house batteries should have provided power for at least a day to power the furnaces probably more, hopefully till power was restored.

You will never get any heat out of a heat pump if it is cold enough to freeze water pipes.  

Bill

[3175375]

2 hours ago, wildebill308 said:

Welcome  to the forum. 

Help me understand. What happened to your 12 volt power in the coach? Both propane furnaces run on 12 volt power. Your house batteries should have provided power for at least a day to power the furnaces probably more, hopefully till power was restored.

You will never get any heat out of a heat pump if it is cold enough to freeze water pipes.  

Bill

I don't know what exactly happened. However, I left a 12 vdc light on inside the coach and it wasn't off when I returned. I had the furnaces in heat mode, not heat pump mode. My suspicion is that I lost AC power, the carrier units shut off and never turned back on. I guess I need to learn more about how the carrier air v heat pump units work. I'll have to read the documentation that I have.

Whatever the cause, I will now know when temps fall to near freezing and will be able to do something about it, remotely.

[wildebill308]

2 hours ago, 3175375 said:

I guess I need to learn more about how the carrier air v heat pump units work. I'll have to read the documentation that I have.

You seem to be fixated on the carrier air v heat pumps as  a heat source in cold weather. I will say again. You will never get any heat out of a heat pump if it is cold enough to freeze water pipes. 

I think it is strange your thermostat didn't automatically change to propane heat when it got to cold for heat pumps. My last coach a 2003 Bounder would do it. Hard to think a 2010 coach wouldn't do that.

Bill   

[huffypuff]

I use to have a 2006 HR Ambassador and you had to choose the mode on the thermostat.  If it don't work there may be a reset for the thermostat.  Looking at your thermostat, it looks like a remote.  Do you have one on a wall somewhere?  

Edited January 11, 2021 by huffypuff

[manholt]

I have three AC's with heat pump, when it gets to 38/40 degrees, all you get is outside cold air, inside!  I don't have gas furnace, but all the ones I have had, runs on 12 volt.  

How long have you lived in cold weather?  

[3175375]

I have a furnace tied to each carrier unit. If they are in heat pump mode, it will bring the furnace into play if the outside temps drop below the range where the heat pump is effective.

No wall thermostats on either unit. If there were, I would have tied in an Eco-Bee.

Interestingly, this morning, I lost all lights (powered by 12 vdc) for about 10 seconds. I looked at the battery cutoff switch and it was good. I don't know what happened, but both carrier units turned off. They apparently don't have memory and when 12vdc is removed (I still think that 110 vac is tied into the air conditioning / furnace equipment - not 12 vdc only as implied in another's post in this thread), they turn off. I will have to look into this more and review the wiring diagrams along with verifying functionality.

One thing that will be part of me doing further investigation is that I see off behavior with the battery cut off circuit. Apparently, it is operated by a switch (it's by the entrance to the RV) that energizes a self latching relay. I have seen this drop out a few times and I am thinking that the relay (or worse the control circuit) is on its way out.

 

More to explore!

[jleamont]

1 hour ago, 3175375 said:

Apparently, it is operated by a switch (it's by the entrance to the RV) that energizes a self latching relay. I have seen this drop out a few times and I am thinking that the relay (or worse the control circuit) is on its way out.

Those solenoids are notorious for problems. When ours is flipped I loose AC/Heat pumps also. They come back after the EMS system deems voltage is adequate and stable automatically. 

[3175375]

Just a follow up - I bypassed the salesman switch (battery cutout switch) last week and I haven't had a problem with the furnaces shutting off since. I am going to order a second Cielo Breez Plus unit for the Air V Temp unit that's in the bedroom and likely install some sort of knife switch / manual switch so I am able to disconnect the coach batteries from the lighting circuits when the coach is not being used and in the shop (my shop - where I store it when not on the playground).

[3175375]

Installed second Cielo controller for the bedroom unit and the installation went smooth. Now I want to install an outlet that had USB ports on it but the outlet in the slide out is a very slim design that isn't standardized for a usual receptacle housing, so I have some more exploring to do.

The salesman switch bypass has shown no furnace shutoffs or outages since I bypassed the solenoid. 8^)

[kaypsmith]

2 hours ago, 3175375 said:

Now I want to install an outlet that had USB ports on it but the outlet in the slide out is a very slim design that isn't standardized for a usual receptacle housing, so I have some more exploring to do.

You may want to look at a box extender, most box stores with electrical has them. https://litestoreusa.com/index.php?id_product=2706&id_product_attribute=0&rewrite=arlington-be1-single-gang-box-extender&controller=product&msclkid=8070ff07bd63154337259f123e84131c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=**LP Shop - Catch All&utm_term=4588399461891867&utm_content=Catch All

[3175375]

I have ordered a One Beat outlet adapter that provides 2 outlets and 2 usb ports. Adding to this I have ordered right angle usb adapters, that will keep the cords close to the wall.

This will provide me with a way to keep the usb cable close to the wall without creating a 'cable mess'.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by 3175375