Quality of electric supply in RV parks

[tbutler]

A number of recent postings have dealt with the necessity for surge protectors, autoformers and other electrical apparatus to protect RV's. Part of the need for these devices is the uneven quality of electrical supply in RV Parks.

I've heard it, I imagine most of have heard it at one time or another. You go to a park office complaining about the quality of the electricity. They tell you that they never know what they are going to get from the electric company this time of year. Or some variation of this. They blame the electric company. While we do hear of "brown outs" occasionally during times of extreme electrical usage in areas with a strained grid, these are isolated and rare.

I went to the office in an RV park in Valdez, Alaska with just such a complaint several years ago. And their response was the "blame the electric company" answer. Rather than accept that response and walk off, I was armed with information and I responded. First of all, my coach has a built-in monitor of electrical current. I know the voltage, amperage used and cycle of the electric I am getting. I knew that when I turned on an air conditioner I was using an amperage within the limits of the supply the campground should have been supplying. I could also see that the voltage dropped from the desirable 120 volts down to about 100 volts when I ran the air conditioner. This could damage the air conditioner if left running on this electric supply. I explained to the clerk at the desk that I was certain that my turning on the air conditioner didn't drop the voltage across the entire electrical grid by 20 volts! I assured her that this was an indication that the wiring within the campground was not sufficient to provide the promised 30 amps.

The fact is that campground owners can put a 50 amp box on any post and connect it with any wire. It will only supply 50 amps of electricity per line if it has a wire of adequate size, #6 or #4 wire depending on the length of run. With a wire that is too small, the voltage will drop as the amperage drawn increases. It isn't the fault of the electric company, the fault lies with the campground owner. Why do campground owners do this? Many campgrounds were wired 30 or 40 years ago. They were wired with little regulation and frequently self done with an eye to saving money. If they have been upgraded since, many were likewise upgraded with no regulation and were done as cheaply as possible. Maybe they do it for the same reason that people buy cheap extension cords to run expensive equipment.

In the old days, 30 amps probably seemed to be plenty of electric and owners may have assumed they could use a #12 wire (sufficient for 20 amps) because nobody would actually use all 30 amps or would only do so briefly and they could get away with #12. Who knows but the fact is that you will encounter campgrounds where the wiring is inadequate and you will not get the electric you are paying for. One hint may be when they want to charge you extra to use an air conditioner or a heater. I figure that their rate for 30 amps means I get 30 amps for whatever I want to use them for. If I am paying an extra $2 or $3 for 50 amps, I get to use 50 amps all the time if I want. It shouldn't matter what I am using it for.

What can we do about it as consumers?

First, I would like to see the major campground directories, Trailer Life and Woodall's add descriptors for the quality of electric (I'd like to see the same for wi-fi). This could be as simple as a code E:0 (for NO) does not meet electrical code, E:X (for excellent) for meets electrical code. Once these ratings were published there would be a strong economic reason for campgrounds to meet electrical codes. I suppose we could ask that all campground owners have an electrical inspection certificate posted in their office like elevator inspection certificates! There is something for the legislative arm of FMCA to work on.

Second, inform the campground owner (not just a clerk) when you find a sub-standard supply at your post. Be ready to show them your electrical meter readings. Do not accept excuses given above. Convince them that you know it is their problem and they should fix it. Don't expect that they will fix it on the spot for you. You might be able to move to a different site with a proper electrical supply. Or perhaps you should get your money back and go to a different campground.

Third, contact local authorities, city, county or state, and complain about the problem. In many cases, the work has not been done by a qualified electrician and/or has not been inspected by proper inspectors. These are safety issues and when brought to the attention of appropriate authorities (preferably in writing) it is hard for them to ignore them. Once informed of the problem and its safety implications the liability for any accident passes at least partially from the campground owner to the authorities who have been informed.

Finally, if you have to stay at a park for some reason, why not ask for a discount for sub-standard electric? Hey, if they say they are supplying 30 amp or 50 amp electric and sold you that spot on that basis they should give a refund if they aren't able to supply what they sold you.

Most important, let them know they have a problem and you know about it. If enough people complain, they will have to start thinking about solutions.

[wolfe10]

Good post.

There are many reasons we need to pay more attention to the quality of 120 VAC service in CG's than in stick homes.

Many CG's electrical systems were designed decades ago when the largest electrical draw in an RV was maybe a TV and a fan. Certainly not a two A/C with microwave and 120 amp charger running at the same time.

Much of the wiring/pedestals are out in the open and exposed to moisture, dirt and abuse.

Many CG's are located outside municipalities with ENFORCED electrical codes.

Many CG electrical outlets have been corroded, pitted and sprung by thousands of users/abusers.

Many CG's electrical systems have been "fixed" by owners or RV'ers.

Either buy an "automatic" 120 VAC system monitor/management system or (as I do) pay attention! I check polarity and voltage before I plug in and recheck voltage (large-display plug-in voltmeter) each time an additional high-amp load is added. Also, unplug anytime there is an electrical storm in the area. Contrary to ads, NO surge protector will protect from a direct/near-direct lightening strike.

By properly monitoring the 120 VAC power, we have never had a problem with our rig caused by poor 120 VAC power, and that includes 5 winters spend in Mexico where power is even more questionable than north of the border.

Brett Wolfe

[tbutler]

Thanks Brett,

I second the monitoring voltage comment. As mentioned, we have a monitor in the RV that allows me to monitor the voltage and just as you said when we move into a new park, I'll watch to see how the AC, microwave, washing machine/drier, coffee pot affect the voltage. The more things Louise turns on the closer I watch the voltage until I am satisfied that the park electrical system is up to par.

[Guest Wayne77590]

After having heard some horror stories, and possibly experiencing a few electrical abnormalities myself, I purchased a Progressive Industries PT-50C. I considered it an insurance policy - not needed until you need it. I guess it just gives me peace of mind.

[rvtrax@gmail.com]

One often over looked problem at campgrounds are worn out shore power outlets from many campers plugging in over time and wearing out the connections. 50 Amp units are the most likely to suffer damage from the common prong (The center flat plug terminal) wearing out. This bad connection will cause 220 volts to feed into the RV, causing major electrical damage, There are many factors that can also cause surge problems as well. A surge protector is expensive, but it is very economical expense to pay now to avoid major expenses without this device. Always inspect your cord for worn or black terminals. Clean or replace as necessary. Notify the campground when your terminals are discolored, because it is generally caused by a worn out shore power receptacle.java script:add_smilie("","smid_10")

[Rbuzz95]

I have always wondered about adequate electrical power. Couple years ago I added another land power cable somewhat smaller than the main cable and this I plug into the additional outlet or two that you find with your 35 or50 amp outlet. This extra cable enters the dinette area of my motorhome and I use it to power the toaster or grill ect.

My concern, is this really gaining anything,or am I just drinking from the same fountain with two straws???

Whaddayathink?

[accsys]

I am currently sitting at a park in Wrangell, AK and have 126VAC (measured with digital multimeter) at the pedestal. Everything except my Kill-O-Watt (it measured 194VAC but is only rated to 125VAC) is working correctly but I wonder how long an over voltage can be tolerated. No air conditioner usage at this time of year so no problem there. I complained to the manager but got the usual "That's what the city is feeding us" which is probably the truth since the voltage is high. Maybe they supply high voltage so it won't drop too low when it gets hot here and usage goes up?

[wolfe10]

I have always wondered about adequate electrical power. Couple years ago I added another land power cable somewhat smaller than the main cable and this I plug into the additional outlet or two that you find with your 35 or 50 amp outlet. This extra cable enters the dinette area of my motorhome and I use it to power the toaster or grill ect.

My concern, is this really gaining anything,or am I just drinking from the same fountain with two straws???

Whaddayathink?

For CG boxes providing 50 amp service (perhaps along with 30 and 15/20 amp service), there are 4 wires from the CG main breaker box: 2 hots, a neutral and a ground.

If you have 50 amp service to your coach, you are gaining nothing by taking part of the load on a separate 15/20 amp circuit. The 50 amp service provides 50 amps on EACH of the two hot legs. So you can use up to a total of 100 amps. It is very doubtful that you will use anywhere near 50 amps PER hot leg.

If you have 30 amp service to your coach, you are limited to 30 amps ( a LOT less than 100 supplied with 50 amp RV service). So here, your extra 15/20 cord will allow you to run more "stuff" from the 30.

Brett Wolfe

[byronlandry]

Hello to all

Most parks have an electrical shortage of amps to the site you're paying for. We have traveled all over this great country of ours, including Canada and Alaska and we do more often find insufficient power.

In our 5th wheeler, we had both an isolation transformer and a surge protector.

We now have a motorhome and we've only installed a 50 amp surge protector. We thought that was more important to have than an isolation transformer, which will come by next summer. $$$$$$$$

Our surge protector has disconnected us a few times and it does indicate the condition of the power source when we plug in. We also have a cycle per second meter and a voltage meter plugged in at all times with our eyes on it when we get to the park until we know what we have.

Money for protection is well worth it. You will figure this out if you don't have any protection and your rig gets hit with some electrical anomaly.

We'd rather pay now for the protection then pay for the repairs which, we're sure would be extremely costly.

It's your choice.

Drive safely

Byron & Linda Landry

[pat4jay@msn.com]

I could not agree more. The idea of adding quality of electrical supply to these campground evaluations is excellent and I hope Good Sam and the others will pick up on it. I have already lost 2 ACs due to brownouts, but how do i prove it?

Jay

[dfosgett]

A number of recent postings have dealt with the necessity for surge protectors, autoformers and other electrical apparatus to protect RV's. Part of the need for these devices is the uneven quality of electrical supply in RV Parks.

I've heard it, I imagine most of have heard it at one time or another. You go to a park office complaining about the quality of the electricity. They tell you that they never know what they are going to get from the electric company this time of year. Or some variation of this. They blame the electric company. While we do hear of "brown outs" occasionally during times of extreme electrical usage in areas with a strained grid, these are isolated and rare.

I went to the office in an RV park in Valdez, Alaska with just such a complaint several years ago. And their response was the "blame the electric company" answer. Rather than accept that response and walk off, I was armed with information and I responded. First of all, my coach has a built-in monitor of electrical current. I know the voltage, amperage used and cycle of the electric I am getting. I knew that when I turned on an air conditioner I was using an amperage within the limits of the supply the campground should have been supplying. I could also see that the voltage dropped from the desirable 120 volts down to about 100 volts when I ran the air conditioner. This could damage the air conditioner if left running on this electric supply. I explained to the clerk at the desk that I was certain that my turning on the air conditioner didn't drop the voltage across the entire electrical grid by 20 volts! I assured her that this was an indication that the wiring within the campground was not sufficient to provide the promised 30 amps.

The fact is that campground owners can put a 50 amp box on any post and connect it with any wire. It will only supply 50 amps of electricity per line if it has a wire of adequate size, #6 or #4 wire depending on the length of run. With a wire that is too small, the voltage will drop as the amperage drawn increases. It isn't the fault of the electric company, the fault lies with the campground owner. Why do campground owners do this? Many campgrounds were wired 30 or 40 years ago. They were wired with little regulation and frequently self done with an eye to saving money. If they have been upgraded since, many were likewise upgraded with no regulation and were done as cheaply as possible. Maybe they do it for the same reason that people buy cheap extension cords to run expensive equipment.

In the old days, 30 amps probably seemed to be plenty of electric and owners may have assumed they could use a #12 wire (sufficient for 20 amps) because nobody would actually use all 30 amps or would only do so briefly and they could get away with #12. Who knows but the fact is that you will encounter campgrounds where the wiring is inadequate and you will not get the electric you are paying for. One hint may be when they want to charge you extra to use an air conditioner or a heater. I figure that their rate for 30 amps means I get 30 amps for whatever I want to use them for. If I am paying an extra $2 or $3 for 50 amps, I get to use 50 amps all the time if I want. It shouldn't matter what I am using it for.

What can we do about it as consumers?

First, I would like to see the major campground directories, Trailer Life and Woodall's add descriptors for the quality of electric (I'd like to see the same for wi-fi). This could be as simple as a code E:0 (for NO) does not meet electrical code, E:X (for excellent) for meets electrical code. Once these ratings were published there would be a strong economic reason for campgrounds to meet electrical codes. I suppose we could ask that all campground owners have an electrical inspection certificate posted in their office like elevator inspection certificates! There is something for the legislative arm of FMCA to work on.

Second, inform the campground owner (not just a clerk) when you find a sub-standard supply at your post. Be ready to show them your electrical meter readings. Do not accept excuses given above. Convince them that you know it is their problem and they should fix it. Don't expect that they will fix it on the spot for you. You might be able to move to a different site with a proper electrical supply. Or perhaps you should get your money back and go to a different campground.

Third, contact local authorities, city, county or state, and complain about the problem. In many cases, the work has not been done by a qualified electrician and/or has not been inspected by proper inspectors. These are safety issues and when brought to the attention of appropriate authorities (preferably in writing) it is hard for them to ignore them. Once informed of the problem and its safety implications the liability for any accident passes at least partially from the campground owner to the authorities who have been informed.

Finally, if you have to stay at a park for some reason, why not ask for a discount for sub-standard electric? Hey, if they say they are supplying 30 amp or 50 amp electric and sold you that spot on that basis they should give a refund if they aren't able to supply what they sold you.

Most important, let them know they have a problem and you know about it. If enough people complain, they will have to start thinking about solutions.

[kingfr]

For CG boxes providing 50 amp service (perhaps along with 30 and 15/20 amp service), there are 4 wires from the CG main breaker box: 2 hots, a neutral and a ground.

If you have 50 amp service to your coach, you are gaining nothing by taking part of the load on a separate 15/20 amp circuit. The 50 amp service provides 50 amps on EACH of the two hot legs. So you can use up to a total of 100 amps. It is very doubtful that you will use anywhere near 50 amps PER hot leg.

If you have 30 amp service to your coach, you are limited to 30 amps ( a LOT less than 100 supplied with 50 amp RV service). So here, your extra 15/20 cord will allow you to run more "stuff" from the 30.

Brett Wolfe

I am hosting at a State Park which has 30 AMP service. I have found that most of the "RV" sites, which have a 30 amp and a 20 amp plug on their power posts, have a single wire feeding both plugs on the post. In some cases there is a 50 amp breaker in the distribution panel and in other cases there is a 40 or even 30 amp breaker in the box. This, of course, means that if you pull from both plugs on your power post, you are likely to pop the breaker in the panel even if the wiring will carry the amps. If you have a 30 amp breaker in the distribution box and on the post and overload the circuit, then the breaker in the distribution box will pop. That can be a real problem if it is the middle of the night and the distribution boxes are locked or in a location that is impossible to find. To compound the problem, this park is running two and sometimes three sites on a single 50 amp circuit. So much for state agencies following any kind of code!

In this parks defense, the CG is old and it is supposed to be reworked and upgraded this year. Of course we have been hearing this for the last two years! You should be very careful any time you plug into any electric service in a state park, especially if the campground is an older one. That probably should go for any older campground.

We have a 50 amp surge/ voltage protector on our coach, which will shut down power to the coach if the voltage gets too low or too high. Also we keep a voltage meter plugged into an outlet at all times so that we can see what is happening. We wouldn't be without this protection.

[RonNewsam]

I agree with most if not all of the comments. I'm not the oldest guy on the block, but having been on the road for 25+ yrs, I see two major problems. 1. The rigs have outgrown the campsites both in physical size and utility requirements. This is not an easy one to rectify and 2. Many of the parks are wired with aluminum, not copper. And I'm talking private as well as membership.

As someone else said elsewhere on this topic good quality monitoring devices is the first line of defense.

[lobell]

We're real new to the RV life and look for things to do to prevent problems down the road, or in this case, in the campgrounds.

I would appreciate some suggested simple surge protection devices I could add to my motor home's electrical to help prevent these surge problems discussed in this thread. I'd like to have something I could add at the plug rather than have to wire it into the coach but whatever I need to do to keep us safe.

I carry a multimeter and in our short time on the road, I've found some really bad electrical recepticals in some parks. I've had to rewire a parks receptical once and repaired / clean / adjust a couple that were just worn out recepticals.

[lobell]

I think I've researched this and have a reasonable solution to the problem, for me.

It's a Progressive Industries Electrical Managment System model EMS-PT50C, Portable. It is a 50 amp that provides total electrical protection and has a digital readout of the AC power source.

Book price is $468. Perhaps someone could advise of a better price somewhere.

[Steelman]

Book price is $468. Perhaps someone could advise of a better price somewhere.

Your Price: $348.77 @tweetys.com

[lobell]

Thanks Steelman. I'll follow up on your suggestion.