Paint Problems

[lylefikse]

Our motorhome sits outside all the time.  It is a 2007 model with full body paint.  We are getting some oxidation of the clear coat near the top and on the corners.  Any suggestions on how to deal with this and make it look better?  I do keep it clean and wax it at least once a year.  The sun seems to be winning.

[rsbilledwards]

I spent 3 and a half decades in the autobody restoration and collision business.

The simple answer is this: the clear coat is not oxidizing but dying. It is doing so because it was not thick enough to begin with. Unlike automobiles , coaches are for the most part, assembled and then masked and then painted in an aftermarket fashion, like at a regular collision shop in you hometown. For a 5 year finish, by paint manufacturer requirements, the clear coat must be a minimum of 2 mils thick. In the affected areas it is in all likelihood not. A 3 mil thickness will return nearly 15 years of life +. The affected areas are the fade away areas, that is they are out of sight and just do not get the attention. The easy fix is to scuff with gray, fine, scotch brite and reclear.

If the clear is flaking, it can be scuffed harder breaking the flaking up and then maybe a bit of color and 2 heavy coats of high solids clear applied and you are on the way, bright and shiny.

Really it is no big deal to repair, mask, and reshoot outside and without a booth. It should be less than a $1,000 dollars as it can be completed in half a day and less than a quart of clear on a 40 footer

 

Good luck

Bill Edwards.

[dickandlois]

Bill, Timing is everything. When the Clear coat is peeling should the entire area be cleaned of all clear coat or just the spots that are peeling? 

I keep thinking that the new coat over the remaining area will just over time brake loose for lack of a good surface bond.

Rich.

[desertdeals69]

I would erect sort of a sunscreen cover to protect it in the future.

[rsbilledwards]

No, it is not necessary to remove it all. The cost just escalates to the point of just leave it be and or where do you stop. The flaking material is broken loose and then blown away high air pressure, in the blowing process, it will remove a little more. That which is left will have a sufficient mil thickness that I would not worry about it in this particular situation.

As long as the scrubbing/scuffing with the gray (fine) Scotch Brite is through and the application of the clear is something near 3 mils = or- a bit, it will bury the remaining loose edges. If this situation were occurring at eye level it would be a different animal and treated otherwise. I used a small, flat blade screw driver to gently scratch the broken clear a bit to forcibly break it, in addition to the Scotch Brite. The end product, will likely out last you as the owner and the loose edges will be invisible to you naked eye. On top of that it is eight feet above eye level. Really, the critical element from my point of view, is that the clear is a true high solids clear. Safari coaches were painted with Diamont, a sub-set of BASF and a very good product. My coach, both of them had the issue in question, now invisible and do I dare say you would never know any thing was done. In my humble opinion BASF's Glasso is the best out there and Diamont a hot second. Amongst painters, plenty to argue about.....and plenty of differing opinions. 

Bill Edwards

[jleamont]

I have the same problems on the top surfaces,my paint rolls up to the roof line. I was going to scuff it and reapply it with duplicolor spray can clear coat.  I also have BASF paint on my Holiday Rambler, expensive paint that holds up well. I had a spot on the coach fixed just after we bought it and the body shop was annoyed that PPG and DuPont couldn't match it, they had to source the BASF product and spray it. They told me it was a similar BASF product used on aircraft and it was 3 times the cost of DuPont or PPG. 14 years later it shines like it is new.

after it was done they told me the paint was the best they had ever sprayed, applied much easier than what they were used too.

[rsbilledwards]

J,   Thanks for the vote of confidence and the plug For BASF the worlds largest chemical company. All of the paint manufacturers have increased material costs markedly over the last 10 years in part thanks to the EPA. BASF's Diamont is currently about  $130 a quart shop cost. When I closed the shop in 2000 I had a serious inventory of the primers, catalysts, and hardeners. I bough most of it years earlier, which I am still using here and there for projects such as mine and yours. In the case of Safari, the paint codes were never formulated into other manufacturer lines. Thus even if one has the formula codes they are not mixable in anything other than Diamont or possibly BASF's Glasso line which is even more expensive. Todays water borne finishes are infinitely more difficult to shoot and require longer dry times and ever more expensive paint booths creating more sophisticated environments. They are harder to match and the list goes on and on.

 

Bill Edwards

[lylefikse]

Wish I had found you Bill when you were still working.  I have two estimates, both $2500.00.  That is just to cover areas affected, not painting the whole coach with clearcoat.  Ideas on where I should go?  We spend the winter in Desert Hot Springs, California.  Any honest and good shops in that area?

[jleamont]

Lyle, if you were up this way, my friend is a body shop manager for a large GM dealer. They take on coach work, he is also a FMCA member as well as the dealership owner. Up here there is slim pickings for paint booths to handle such a job.

[manholt]

Lyle.  Do you know where Rocky Point, Mexico is?  I watched as they did a whole 42' Fifth Wheel...my best friends, 2 years ago...it's amazing, $800 US.  They have a lot off shops down there and stiff competition. 

Google it if you don't know where it's at.  about 4 hrs. due south on 85 from Phoenix.  84km from border...very safe.  Puerto Ponesco, on the Sea of Cortez!  I'll be there after the Winter FMCA rally in March!

Carl

[rsbilledwards]

It is and will continue to be my contention that a paint booth is not always needed. It is if the whole coach is being done for sure but spot repairs not so much. I painted the entire lower 30 odd inches of my coach eliminating road rash and a mishap where I turned it to tight in to the trailer outside in a parking lot of Garage Town where I have a personal play place/shop. It is every bit a as clean as the original paint work. On top of that I did it in a gently breezy day.

There are many factors that determine the how, when, where, who and the skill of the shop or individual doing the work. Location figures into this as well and California has huge requirements that prohibit or inhibit business. At the top of the unfriendly to business list are body shops. In California solvent based paints are all but out of the picture as in illegal to use and not or barely available. This in itself precludes the need for a paint booth. In other parts of the country this is not the case or application of restrictions are more laxly enforced. You ask what then do they use? New paint products are what is referred to as "waterborne", water being part of the carrier as opposed to a volatile solvent which slows drying considerably in either a heated controlled environment or not heated. Thank you very much I am finished. 

As for your $2,500  estimate. I can not comment on what is to be done and whether or not it is high, low or reasonable. I can tell you this we have a saying in the restoration business, "buy East, Sell West" meaning it is cheaper in the East than the West. From my knowledge California is about as expensive a location to have you work done as you might find.

Good luck,

Bill Edwards 

[rsbilledwards]

Lyle,

The radiuses of the roof are a weak spot for clear as the do not ever apply an adequate film thickness. It is not at all a difficult place to redo and it is high enough up that it does not have to be perfect to be good and visually appealing. Is there a drip rail near the top that can be used as a break point for the clear coming down the wall. If there is that is the perfect stop point. The broken clear edge does not need to be fully feathered to achieve a long lasting finish either. Problem is this, the shop may tell you that it does and charge you and not do as they say since it will never be seen even if you were to get up there an have a look. Being active in the repair process is very important. If the shop says you cannot see back in the work area find another shop, it is not safe for their employees either!

One of the things many body shops are good at is making the job bigger than it needs to be particularly if it is an easy set up. Most consumers have know idea what it involves or how much or little time is required. Maybe a good seminar subject.

 

Bill Edwards 

[manholt]

Bill E.  Get with Brett or Tireman and try to have a seminar on this subject in Arizona next march...you plan on being in area anyway...should be fun!

[rsbilledwards]

OOPs!!   BE

[jleamont]

Yea, my friend (same guy as above) just recleared his in his driveway. His looks great!

[rsbilledwards]

J,

 

Do not do that...when it comes time to do it correctly it will be a mess. ok if you are doing it but if you are going to pay it will cost you twice!! That stuff is not compatible with the real automotive thinners.

 

B

 

[jleamont]

Mine still looks good. No issues yet. When it does it will go somewhere and be handled. I'm not a paint guy. 

[manholt]

Bill E.  OOP's?   Well Bill, it was your idea...  You should know by now, with this group, be very careful with words!

[jleamont]

Bill, help me understand. His coach is painted with Sherwyn Williams Martin senior. He ordered the same product in spray can (clear only from a body shop supply house) cleaned off the dead clear, shined up the paint and reapplied clear.

[manholt]

Isn't that house paint? 

[jleamont]

Haha, I asked the same question. Apparently that is what Tiffen paints their coaches with. I guess they make a automotive paint also. 

[rsbilledwards]

I am the PPG or BASF guy not necessarily in that order! Basf is by far and away the best out there in my opinion. Sherwood Williams is not any where near the top of the list. Have I used it, yes and found it very lacking in numerous ways. It is by far cheaper than BASF or PPG. Most likely why coach manufacturer is using it. This could be a long and detailed conversation. NAPA is the or was during my shop years the distributor of SW automotive materials. I do not know the product of today but believe there are better products available...understatement!

Jay what they sold him in a spray can was likely a lacquer or hybrid of some kind. It was not a catalyzed acrylic urethane since once mixed it has a pot life which is very short. It was the quick and dirty repair and will last a little while. If he were to shoot the real stuff on top of it, the reaction would be like paint stripper...crinkle crinkle and a mess.

Carl, cute I know I put my foot in it.  Thanks for the vote of confidence. I will at least think about it. The subject matter is broad and detailed. I am not  sure how many would really be interested. I guess that is the real up front question. I did a couple seminars over the years for Porsche and Mercedes national conventions with some of my contemporaries. I do not have a feel for how the audience received it when finished.

Bill Edwards

[manholt]

If they did not throw a tomato or raw egg at you...then they liked it!   I know how car folks, like boat folks, can be a little aloof sometimes....I don't seal with them and their only 10% of the bunch anyway!  I think you would go over real good, with 90%, the folks I have seen at seminars in FMCA want to learn...if they knew it, they would not be there!  Read all of J's posts on the subject.

When I hear of paint or clear anything in a spray can.  I automatically think of lawn furniture or arts and crafts...not a Class A DP...

[jleamont]

Bill, I have no idea, I will have to ask. I looked at it and it looked great to me. Definitely a heck of a lot better than it did before, his charcoal grey was browning and the clear was gone for a few years.

[rsbilledwards]

 

J,

I absolutely guarantee that it is not a catalyzed product but it will look ok for a while.  Spray can technology does not have the orifice size to shoot or expel the high solids material, atomized in such a manner to allow it to land and then flow. It takes a minimum of 2 mills material to achieve a minimal 5 year finish.

B