Grandriver

This does not surprise me at all. DW has a 2011 Escape that we have towed 3,000 miles. At this time last year we did a complete switch and went from 3 bow ties to 3 blue ovals. Our previous MH's have all had rock guards. On the last one (Kodiak) we added it ourselves. Our toad was a Tahoe and of course it has a manual transfer case with a Neutral setting. So nothing is turning and airflow is not relevant. I've been debating adding a rock guard to our Impulse and a couple of months ago decided against it for this very reason - airflow and cooling of the transmission. This could well be an issue and I'd rather go without than find out by having to sit around someplace while the transmission is being replaced. GR

bairman, I think there is a very significant change. Look near the end. Until now you had to run the engine for at least 5 minutes and just before shutting it off run the gear shift through the pattern they defined. NOW, you have to keep your foot on the brake and run through the gears for the FULL five minutes that you are running the engine. GR

I wonder if they read these forums? I know the MH manufacturers sure do. Glad to see they are waking up. I'd ask them if they would have any objection to using the $1500 for a lube pump and would they leave the warranty on the tranny if I had one installed. GR

The problem is that your suggestion is impractical. You say wait until they are proven 4 down. So if everyone waits, who is going to prove it? The point I've been trying to make that you seem to reject is that you have to "hold GM's feet to the fire on this issue." If owners don't they will get run over. I went through a problem with Chrysler in the 80s. Remember the cars that were "executive driven?" It came to light when cops found that they were ticketing speeding Chrysler products in the Detroit area that had the speedos and odometers disconnected. Several of the cars were involved in accidents. Many were taken to Florida for vacations and then they were all sold as new. Chrysler got its knuckles wrapped. In Canada, I got a letter telling me how fortunate I was to have had my LeBaron Turbo test driven. They said my full warranty was now 7 years. Soon after I examined the agreement approved by the court in the US - same warranty bump and a $500 cheque (well, check for you). I notified Chrysler that we were not being treated fairly and that I was prepared to take up the issue with the government. They didn't like it but added the $500. I then had to point out that we pay in Canadian dollars and get shafted with a higher price and thus we should have been given $500 US converted to Canadian (which was well over $600 at the time - now it would be less than $500). Again they didn't like it but knew darn well I was not going to let them get away with any unfair treatment. So, if I were a Cruze owner facing a waste of money having bought a vehicle that GM told me I could tow, put on baseplates, and then was told by GM that it changed its corporate mind, I'd light a blow torch under its feet to make sure GM paid for its error - not me. As I mentioned earlier, we have a blue oval - 2011 Escape Limited AWD, and their dealer was informed we were buying it to tow and we checked the manual with the dealer before purchasing. The dealer was well aware that we would NOT have purchased the Escape if it could not be towed four down. If I got a letter from Ford now telling me that I can't tow it, well, you'd better believe I would light the blow torch - and quickly (have towed 3,000 miles now and no problems yet). We paid over $32,000 for the loaded Escape and then added baseplates and I don't plan to absorb a huge depreciation hit by having to trade it for something else. As a minimum, I'd insist on receiving an Edge and would be prepared to pay a cash difference based on the difference in the original selling prices. Given Cruze owners all have front wheel drive, GM could provide a dolly at its cost. If I were calling the shots I'd notify them that GM would be installing lube pumps at no cost to the owner (assuming that a pump will solve the problem). By the way, IMO there is NO comparison between the testing done on MHs and cars. One of my sons is an engineer and works in Detroit. He has been involved with crash tests and a variety of other tests. They do several practice builds before production of a model begins. From what I've seen that is not the case with MHs or we wouldn't find owners with long punch lists on delivery (but I must be fair here - our new 2004 Journey had loads of problems whereas our 2011 Itasca has had only one issue corrected quickly by the dealer). The volume is just too low for them to want to spend that kind of money crash testing, doing practice builds with all of the component suppliers and so on. GR

I'm sure glad you aren't in charge of consumer protection. With your views it would be non-existent.

YES, but what you seem to be missing completely is that when they hold out that a product can be used in a certain manner and people buy it specifically for that purpose, and then find out the representation was false or incorrect, that is NOT appropriate conduct. Some might call it breach of contract or non-performance by the supplier. That is what I believe may give rise to legal issues for GM (do you or did you work for GM? I get the feeling you may have.) as they have not fulfilled their part of the bargain with these purchasers.

Scroll down in this thread to the photo of the Cruze. Cruze on display at RV show

I take it you are not familiar with the joint development of this transmission family by GM and Ford at a cost of $1.4 billion? You might search for the tech articles and you will find that they made a modification during the design phase that would facilitate the lubrication necessary for flat towing. I do not share your view that it is up to the public to do the long distance testing. You must be thinking about RV's where Larry, Curly and Moe are responsible for quality control and we have to find and fix the problems. GR

Let us be serious for a moment. I've towed a Colorado and a Tahoe. The Tahoe was NICE but you sure don't tow it with a MH that has a 5,000 lb receiver and rating. We towed with a 41 ft DP and then a Kodiak. Now we have an E450 based MH and that weight (5700 lbs) would be too much to tow sensibly. Our Escape tows very well. We thought Ford had solved the transmission problems until two 2011's reported burn out. Hopefully it was a case of not adequately lowering the fluid level. Further, not everyone (actually very few as a %) want a manual transmission. GR

Last year we swapped 3 bowties for 3 blue ovals. Over the past 48 years we've rotated through the Detroit 3. Prior to the bow ties we were Chrysler for a period. Prior to that Ford and prior to that GM, and so on. If GM leaves Cruze owners dangling, GM will be off our list to even consider in the future. If they feel one can make a purchase of this magnitude and then have them change their minds, they better think again. If Ford comes out and makes the same statement for our Escape that would be the end of blue ovals and I'd definitely participate in a class action. Having said that, given how long the Escape (and Fusion) problems have existed, I don't expect Ford to make such a move (fingers crossed).

It is not on the list. FMCA annual toad list 2008

I would not expect you to have any problems. We towed a 2007 Tahoe LTZ (5700 lbs) behind an HR Ambassador (10k receiver and tow bar and BB) with no problem and no fuel penalty. We downsized and then towed it behind a 32.5 ft Kodiak Greyhawk gasser (8.1 Vortec) and it got the same MPG as the DP - 7.6 average. We towed a Colorado behind a Winnie Journey 39W and averaged 8.3 mpg. Don

Ford should pay for this if necessary since it informed FMCA in writing that the vehicle could be towed flat - and thus it is on the list. Balman - there IS a transmission dipstick and it does have marks on it for flat towing. The person who told you other wise is not informed on this topic. Critical point remains the fluid level. Some owners who have gone in for service have had a keen service tech top it up again. When I took our Escape in for service I made it clear that the tech should be informed that if he topped up the transmission and it failed the penalty would be death. They got the message.

You can find a lot of discussion on this topic in this thread. Escape

Sorry, but that is NOT what the owner's manual states. I posted it a few weeks ago and you can find it here. Many have not read the manual before towing. Our 2011 Escape has the same transmission and same instructions. No need at all to remove any fuses. Mileage is not recorded and no battery problems. We towed 2500 miles - to Florida and back. Important point is the fluid level.

We bought our BB Classic in 2004 and it works fine with our 2011 Escape. Don

I guess I was not very clear. I went to Ford and downloaded the Fusion 2011 Operators Manual and what I quoted is a direct cut and paste from the FUSION manual - and it looks identical to the Escape. GR

That certainly is discouraging. We have a 2011 Escape and have towed it 2500 miles with no problem and total mileage is now 6,000. I have a critical question for you. The Escape requires that the transmission fluid level be lowered to a prescribed range. Since you have, I believe, the same engine and transmission as our Escape, your dipstick should show another bar just above the add fluid bar. If you look at your manual you will find the following on page 207: • Vehicles equipped with an automatic transmission should have the transmission fluid level checked by an authorized dealer. For the correct transmission fluid level when flat towing (all four wheels on the ground), refer to Transmission fluid in the Maintenance and Specifications chapter. • Tow only in the forward direction. • Release the parking brake. • Place the transmission shift lever in N (Neutral). • Place the ignition to the accessory position (refer to Starting in the Driving chapter). • Do not exceed 65 mph (105 km/h) if the vehicle is equipped with an automatic transmission or 70 mph (113 km/h) if equipped with a manual transmission. • Vehicles equipped with an automatic transmission need to start the engine and allow it to run for five minutes at the beginning of each day and every six hours thereafter. With the engine running and your foot on the brake, shift into D (Drive) and then into R (Reverse) before shifting back into N (Neutral). Tires, Wheels and Loading 207 Pages 326-327 state: Checking transmission fluid level for recreational flat tow operation Before recreational flat towing your vehicle, the transmission fluid level may need to be set to a lower level. These guidelines are designed to prevent damage to your transmission. Before you recreational flat tow, your fluid level must be verified by an authorized dealer. This fluid level is within the normal operating fluid range and does not require that you have your fluid level readjusted after recreational flat tow operation. So, if you did not have the dealer check it, lower it and certify it, I can imagine what happened. We had our dealer do that (no charge) and perhaps that is why, to this point at least (fingers crossed) we've had no problems. Frankly, if you did not have the level lowered, I think Ford could disallow your warranty claim since you did not follow the instructions in the operations guide which are very clear. If your dealer knew that you were going to be towing flat (I made sure ours did before we purchased) and did not make this fluid adjustment then you likely have a reasonable defense. I can understand what you are going through and that is why we made sure we had the fluid level lowered AND when we had the oil and filter changed we informed the service staff that they were NOT to add transmission fluid - under the penalty of DEATH if they did and it burned out. Whenever we stop I check the temperature of the transmission housing with a infrared thermometer (it can get pretty warm) and pull the dipstick and determine how hot the end is. Also, we make sure that at 6 hours of towing (and usually earlier) we run the engine as described. Good luck

Mike, we had that problem with our Tahoe ONCE. Towed about 200 miles to the Jayco factory for some work on our previous MH (Kodiak base). When we got there the Tahoe battery was flat - dead as can be. That had never happened before and never happened after. No problems at all with the battery in the 2011 Escape after towing a total of 2500 miles. So, what happened? Obviously I can't prove anything but I have a suspicion that it was the BrakeBuddy placed too far forward so that it might have been slightly engaged. We didn't notice any problem with towing, so that is a guess. Don

Glad Ford called you back. We tow a 2011 Escape (over 2500 miles so far) and it has not added one mile when towing. In Feb 2010 Ford made a modification of some sort to the transmission used in the Escape. Keep in mind this six speed is in the family of transmissiond developed jointly by GM and Ford and used in the vast majority of their vehicles. For some reason this one had problems. I gather Ford either installed or modified a baffle in Feb 2010. They also have marked the transmission fluid dipstick for 2011 as to the fluid level (when hot) for flat towing. To date we've had no problems at all. In Sept - Oct we went from 3 bow ties to 3 blue ovals. Traded an Equinox and Tahoe for an Escape and Flex. DW loves her Escape (more than the Equinox which she also liked - but it was a 2006 and not towable) and we both find the Flex super. When we did the deal and were waiting a few days to take delivery, I was not too happy with my decision because the Tahoe was excellent - and it towed well. To my surprise, even though I'd test driven the Flex, by the time we both drove home my concerns were gone and we find the Flex far more useful than the Tahoe. The third row seats are completely useful even by me - great seats. The two in the third row of the Tahoe were terrible and useable only by a young child so we took them out. Also, the Navigation system is head and shoulders over the unit in the Tahoe. Now, shortly after that double header we swapped our Greyhawk on Kodiak for an E450 based MH - and to date very satisfied. I had both cars into the Ford dealer today for and oil change and tire rotation. The Escape has over 5,000 miles on it plus 2500 that did not register when being towed. The service chap was really surprised because the tires were hardly worn and the bit of wear was very even. So we have our fingers crossed that this good experience to date will continue. While at the dealer I looked over a new Explorer. I was interested in the third row seating. It was better than the Tahoe but still tight and not anywhere near as comfortable as the Flex. The Flex is also towable. The Escape weighs less than 3600 lbs and the Flex Limited AWD weighs in at 4640. The Explorer Limited AWD/4WD tips the scales at 4731. Out Tahoe towed well behind our earlier 2006 41ft DP but with the Kodiak you could feel a tug when going over bumps and rail lines. We are very pleased the way the Escape tows. If we only had one passenger car, however, it would have to be the Flex rather than the Escape. The Flex is towable as well. Don

I'll second Brett's comments. We towed a Colorado for 3 years (4wd quad cab) that had a cap on the box and a bed roller - weight was close to 4500 lbs. We used a Brake Buddy. In some jurisdictions you will not be legal without a braking system. The weights vary but from what I can recall 2000 or 3000 lbs is usually the cut off. There is a list available that shows the requirements state by state and province by province (if I can remember which organization published it and the URL I'll post it - have not looked at it for a couple of years). I'd suggest you check your owner's manual and you will likely find that the manufacturer rates its brakes for the GVWR, which is usually substantially less than the GCWR. Grandriver

On our cars we've had good experience with Michelin. With our one motorhome that had them - YUK. I'd say stay away from the XRV's - all others are probably fine. We had GY on our first MH (used Triple E) and they were fine. Second was a 39Ft Winnie Journey DP and the XRV's were terrible. We concluded we would NEVER buy a MH that had XRV's. Third was a heavier 41 ft Ambassador with GY's and they were fine. Fourth is a Kodiak based C with GY's and they too have been fine. At one time Freightliner did not allow any choice for MH manufacturers ordering its chassis - Michelins only. We took a tour of the Gaffney plant after all the XRV complaints were being reported on the forums and noticed a lot were getting GY's. When I asked they were reluctant to comment but made it clear that it was due to demand from dealers (and whispered - because of problems with the XRV's). Shortly after Michelin increased the inflation pressures by 10 psi. Ours had real difficulty holding air. GR

Gary, the FMCA list is for flat towing (4 wheels down). The question pertained to using a dolly. No problem with towing it with a dolly UNLESS it is AWD. If it is ALL WHEEL DRIVE then the answer is NO TOWING other than on a trailer. GR

Until recently Ontario had a limit that was about 42 ft. That didn't stop several dealers from selling 45 footers and visitors from bringing them in on vacation travel. Unless they've changed it in the past year, MTO has a special fee for those licensed that are over 42 ft (not 42 exactly as it is metric). I'm surprised no one has challenged this since visiting vehicles don't have to pay it. Ontario finally established a policy for RV driving licenses. MTO licensing for drivers of RVs. In the notes you will see that actual weights are used not manufacturers' ratings when it comes to the class of license needed. Many Class A units that tow are way over the limit and a Class D is required. Most of the offending drivers don't even know the requirement exists.

Brett, I know what is involved, my NO. 2 son is an MEng who works in the auto biz in Detroit. He put on the baseplates on the Tahoe (his company has front end parts on the Tahoe so he was more than familiar with it) and I "assisted" (aka - watched and handed tools - he has everything at home including lathes and welding equipment as he has built his own SCCA DSR). My point is that every car is different and one sees that when you look at the instructions (in our case Blue Ox) for a dozen vehicles. When I was changing from the Colorado to the Tahoe I looked at a variety of vehicles and in each case checked the Blue Ox instructions. Some are easy and some involve MAJOR surgery or a lot of front end parts removal and replacement. That is why I was asking someone who actually did an Escape for their experience since I don't put total faith in the comments of the baseplate manufacturers. The amount of work required (and in particular any cutting) will definitely have an impact on choice of vehicle. I enjoy my Tahoe enough that it will be the first vehicle in 30 years+ that I will keep for more than 3 years (probably 5 or 6) and right now we tow it (it was a nothing behind the Ambassador but now we have a Jayco Kodiak 8.1L Greyhawk [only made for a year] and while it does the job of towing OK - just not the same without all that torque the diesel had). If it had not been for the cutting required (and BO said there was none required - but they were wrong - and the solution they suggested would have shattered the front end) the Tahoe baseplates would have gone on very quickly - simply remove the tow hooks, insert the plates which were to protrude right through the tow hook openings, use Loctite and bolt them in with a torque wrench, put on the safety cables and that would have been it. But, they did not protrude through the tow hook opening without some cutting. Because of the very strong frame on the Tahoe it does not require the cross support bar necessary on most vehicles. Don