RodgerS

"The bottom line is that if you are seriously concerned about annual costs (or any other costs) you are in the wrong hobby." I would ADD... AND you should be considering alternative luxury vacations where you don't have to invest in an RV." HOWEVER, HOWEVER, If you are not concerned with cost, you may wish to purchase/invest in a condo on a luxury cruise liner. http://aboardtheworld.com Luxury residences at sea. "Imagine the ultimate lifestyle that comes with combining a private yacht and a luxury vacation home. A home that takes you all around the globe, allowing you to wake up to new scenery outside your private veranda every few days." You get a captain, crew, chef prepared meals, no dealerships or service technicians, no repairs and maintenance to do. Rodger S.

Carl, for next time, I don't know the mfg of your step, but Kwikee steps, for example, has a troubleshooting process written both in the step instructions and on their website. Following their troubleshooting procedure with a separate fully charged battery, in my experience, works well to pinpoint the problem for a Kwikee step. My experience with the service technicians at the rental company was that none of them ever did any troubleshooting for anything. They all worked by guess, and by plug and play. If a technician told me a motor was bad, my first question would be to ask them how they know that to be true. My next question would be to have them explain the troubleshooting process they went through. Note: several RV service technicians working at various dealerships, and two of my service instructors, all confirmed and lamented the common lack of troubleshooting skills among their fellow technicians. Rodger S.

To reduce the risk of a bad experience anywhere you take your RV, first reconsider these are complex units to work on.You have a lifestyle dream that depends on the unit being road ready when you want to use it. Regardless of who you take the unit to, there are things you can do to improve your odds of a good outcome: 1) When you call in to make the appointment, have a well thought out list of the things you want done ready. When you arrive for your appointment, don't start remembering more things you want done. The service writer is tasked with fitting you into their calendar based on the amount of time it will take to obtain the parts and to do the job. 2) Adding more parts needed may delay getting the work done and adding service time may mean adding more time slots to work on your unit. 3) Focus on describing clearly what doesn't work. Don't take talk about RVing or your favorite movie, restaurant, or music. Stay focused. Write down a clear description of the problems and fax/email it to the service writer for inclusion into your work order. 4) Ask to discuss the work order with the service leader or the tech that will be working on your coach. Note: most forum complaints about service don't provide the service department the opportunity to respond. Sometimes the attitude, behavior, and demands of the owner contributed to the poor service experience. Service writers have long memories. Their being willing to make their best efforts on your behalf is important to you, and will likely be affected by their current and past experiences with you. Rodger S.

1) As I stated in an earlier post, one quick step, as part of the process, would be to research that particular coach for problems. If you put in the description of the coach followed by the word "problems," with a generic internet search, this issue comes right up. 2) If you put up the trailing arms issue as a research question in various forums, you find out there is an aftermarket fix for the problem. Either way, once you make the dealer aware of the issue, then you negotiate the fix as part of the contract. Rodger S.

Carl, I agree. I will endeavor to visit the forum much less...if at all...and write even less...if at all. I really don't think I'm adding anything, nor do I seem to be getting anything back in return anymore as I don't need much it seems. If Gerber is right, all the forums will eventually suffer the downward spiral of the industry. As far as buying an RV, that remains an open question. My incentive today is not what it was 3 years ago when I first contemplated the idea and continues to decline. I hope the door will hit my butt as I go out it. Unfortunately, it probably is broken if it is an RV door. Rodger S.

But the coach is used and unacceptable for reasons unclear to me, for buyers who insist on "new." The negative for the owners is the coach is now worth significantly less than they paid for it, if they wanted to trade it in or sell it. As far as asking them questions in a year, I would be more interested to find out how many miles they have put on the coach, how much time they have spend in it, and what maintenance they have done or have had done on the coach. Unless they are full timers or are taking it on a one year fling.... Rodger S.

I have no idea what your budget is, but if you can you should jump on this: http://motorhomesoftexas.com/coachrv/monaco/2006--cayman--36SBT--C1917 Do a search on the internet and on various forums "2006 Monaco Cayman." Unless you can find something problematic I would be on the phone tomorrow. Don't bother asking forum members what they think until you are inside the deal. If there were problems with that year and model it has been already discussed on the forrums and is researchable. 36 feet, $62,500 offering price, 22,780 miles, "very little evidence of use." Close a deal with inspection conditions, and get er done. The price will be the art of good judgment followed up with inspections to confirm. If I was ready, I would close the deal and have it taken off the market with 10 minutes of discussion, then drive out with my inspection tools and line up inspections at break time...assuming my research did not disclose a deal breaker. (Forget the gas stuff, remodel to make the floor plan work) Rodger S.

Just for consideration...this would be my approach to your next deal. Now that you have a list of suggestions and some experience: 1) there is always another deal around the next corner 2) always be ready to strike quickly on a used coach. Have an agreement with someone at the bank that when you hit the green light, they are ready to confirm that the funds are available for transfer, they can help with the title, and the paperwork. This assumes that like me, you have a list of a dozen or so sources for locating your coach. I would try to have at least two acceptable mfgs...in this case Tiffin and Newmar. I think remodeling and upgrades can cure a lot of issues. Be ready to talk for an hour and half on the phone. In that time you should be able to decide, based on the representations (assumptions), whether or not this will work, then negotiate the price and make the conditional deal. Have your paperwork ready so you can make your edits and shoot the signed paperwork to the owner and he can sign and shoot it back (if necessary). This includes an agreement that the coach is now off market. This is a done deal. I think if the coach and owner are good...you just need to get on the stick. Your paperwork should include the price and how paid, the owners representations, and a list of what you will do to confirm (conditional upon). You connect up the bankers that day or the next, but no funds get transferred until your confirmations are complete and the bankers are happy. I would try to get two to four weeks to make appoints and get fluid samples analyzed. You just have to negotiate it all. Note: I'm quite sure some people will tell me to take a hike, but if the owner is reasonable you should be able to negotiate out mutually acceptable conditions, including timing, the above being just starting thoughts. You should assume that a "clean" desirable coach will disappear fast as used buyers are generally much different in behavior and thoughts than new buyers. Rodger S

7/9/16 Challenge by Mark: "...I own a dealership. Honestly I don’t believe these issues are any bigger than they were when I started in the RV business in 2000. Some company’s have made huge investments in service and warranty while others have not. There is always room for improvement but I think it’s a joke when I hear how amazing the car business is. My new vehicles have all had multiple issues, one that even kept my brand new truck in shop for 6 weeks before I got it back. I was in the boat business for 10 years before coming to RV’s and they have the same problems. I am a member of RVDA and attend the convention every year to talk about some of these very issues with high profile people from the manufacturing level. I am on the board of my local RV dealers association to deal with things at this level. I am always amazed at the amount of dealers that complain but don’t participate. Greg is welcome to his point of view, but it’s a shame to see him bash an industry than truly has so many happy owners that just aren’t vocal like the unhappy ones. An industry that helps provide so much quality time for family’s. Are there some horror story’s? Of course there are but I could find those in any industry with a quick google search." ================ 7/13/16 reply to Mark, I’m going to take you up on your challenge. I am going to spend the next month walking each campground I am at to speak with anyone outside their RVs and ask them these questions: 1) Do you like the RV lifestyle? What’s good about it? What’s bad about it? 2) Knowing what you do now, would you have bought an RV the first time? Will you buy another one? 3) Will you work with the same RV dealer? With my visit to the Escapees Escapade coming up in two weeks followed by the Family Motor Coach Association rally, I should have ample opportunity to speak to RV owners from all over the nation who are ecstatic about the lifestyle, those who are lukewarm and those who regret their purchase. I will be very happy to prepare an unbiased report and share my findings in another column in mid-August. I’m looking forward to this more formalized face-to-face research. GREG GERBER Editor, RV Daily Report 7/13/16 2nd post (in the past) I have visited well over 300 RV dealerships, 100 suppliers, a dozen manufacturing plants, hundreds of campgrounds and and more than 100 trade shows. Plus, I am the ONLY journalist covering the RV industry who not only owns an RV, but lives in one full-time as I travel around interviewing all these people. If I am alienating myself from the industry, then it is a case of “let’s shoot the messenger because we don’t want to hear this nonsense.” How many online consumer forums do you monitor daily? Have you been to a consumer rally? Really, all this complaining is news to you? You want proposed solutions, well then the microphone is open. Step up and offer some rather than picking up tomatoes and tossing them at the fat guy on the stage. I stand ready and willing to interview you exclusively for a 45-minute podcast where you can explain your proposals in your own words. It will be a lively debate. When can I call to interview you?

Come on now, what goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas. You are lucky you only caught bed bugs there. Rodger S.

Don't go to cooking school, it will change your costs considerably. Rodger S.

A rule of thumb has one or more assumptions attached to it that results in a misleading conclusion when used in practice. The reimbursable mileage rate is only an option if you don't want to maintain your own records and establish your actual costs. Actual expenses one year may vary very significantly compared to the next year. Ignoring depreciation, your monthly payments, major repairs, comprehensive maintenance, upgrades, tires, water leaks/damage, and remodeling improves the numbers but not the reality. Does it really matter? Only with respect to other uses of the money that would provide alternative entertainment choices OR if it exceeds your budget. You end up in the money pit whatever you do and any way you cut the numbers. What Five says should be considered not to be a sermon, but as gospel. Rodger S.

I can't imagine anyone covering leaks because by the time one discovers a leak a tremendous amount of water damage may have already occurred AND leaks and water damage are pretty common it seems...AND there is always a question of what other problems will stem from it. By the way, the point the finger at someone else seems to be one of the best games to play in this industry...and understandably so. I still think that owners are the ones who need to up their game substantially But, as Car C."might" say to me, RVers just wanna have fun. Pascal wrote in his Pensees that "for want of habit it is difficult to turn one's mind in that direction...but if one turns it hither ever so little...it is almost impossible they should escape notice." As two readers replied to the Gerber articles they noticed...having turned their newbie minds hither...1) "At least I got a great new truck, but the RV is on hold for now," 2) "I am at the point of giving up the RV and just travel in the car and stay in motels."

Here are comments from Byron Songer July 25, 2016 at 6:31 pm "There is a lot of attrition going on so for every one (RV) that exits (ages out) another comes along. There is no real growth. The are storage lots with 25% of the units being vacated (except for the rodents). They just sit unused." "Now, regarding delivery issue, be at a dealership when the drivers arrive and wait for a dealership inspection — a good argument will start. Then comes the documentation signing time — more arguing. Why the arguing? The driver says: “It left the factory that way.” The factory, in a phone call, says: “No it didn’t.” The dealership says: “We aren’t taking delivery until you agree to pay for the repair.” And it goes on. "the prevalent attitude among manufacturers seems to be “slap it together and get it on the road, we’ll deal with the issues later.” No wonder the wise person will buy used and let the new owner deal with the headaches."

Per RVIA.org "Today a record 9 million RVs are on the roads...the steady gain in ownership reflects a strong and enduring appeal of the lifestyle." per Gerber "So, there were 9 million RV owning households in 1997, and 9 million in 2011 and 9 million today. This despite the fact that, using RVIAs own shipment numbers, there were 5.7 million new RVs built between1997 and 2015." So, my question is despite the performance of the industry, what is going on? Gerber provided his opinion, so what is wrong with the stats? Gerber provided a lot of potential explanations about a whole set of issues, but seems like the industry does the same thing the reviews and websites do...highlight their good points and obscure the issues. For example, touting quality is meaningless unless you can differentiate the difference between quality of amenities, quality of build, and quality of warranty support. Gerber has provided a compilation of his eight articles into one pdf files. I'm slowly reading through all the responses to date. I'm happy to read that other people are getting the idea into their head of asking the dealers about these issues. As I guessed, all four contacts I had at different dealerships stopped emailing me after I sent them my request to include a lemon law buy back paragraph in my purchase contract. Rodger S.

I just assumed the double postings came with too many glasses of wine. And, reading some of these posts with a glass of wine helps at times. I suspect I will need to drink a whole bottle of wine so I can actually buy a MH. Rodger S.

"I would insist on a warranty history report depending on how new it was of a unit." Yes, that is not often mentioned, but is on my list as well. Same as doing a Carfax check, talking with their mechanic, and possibly getting a printed readout or copy of invoices or at least a look through of them from the mechanic on past services. One doesn't have to limit themselves to owner's representation and owner's documents...and they should be willing to let you talk to those that have helped them in the past. "most likely I would just sit back and wait like the last purchase since I wasn't in a hurry and time was on my side." There are also plenty of activities you don't need a MH for. $40k, $100k, $150k, $200k can buy a lot of choices. Rodger S.

I agree, I have seen that video. But he's irrelevant because his video is not reaching the new buyers. My guess is the Gerber's articles won't either. An Entry level mentality, when buying new at $100k or $400k is a function of... Rodger

Problem: can you, the mfg, build a quality, custom, hand made entry level unit for a "new to the industry" customer who usually buys mass produced products? Apparently not. But you can build something else. Does that customer usually know that the process they used to buy their car is insufficient for buying a motorhome and that what they are buying was not built the same way their car was? Apparently not, but you can have the salesman treat the customer as if they were buying a car. When a customer comes on an RV website why do some owners emphasize focusing on floor plan, as if quality or keeping it on the road are not critical issues??? Maybe new owners just have to pay their dues the hard way if you want to join the team. Does that customer usually buy a $100 bottle of wine at the winery or a $10 bottle of wine off the shelf? When that customer buys, how sophisticated is his research and ability to ferret out the deeper issues? Mostly they just want to get out of town and have a good time. So you build what you can as fast as you can to be sold to customers who buy based on first impressions. The living quarters are not covered by lemon laws so the mfg keeps changing the models, selling a glorified dream, and letting the repair bay take the complaints. Does it matter...no, not as long as the sales are holding up. And you can trade it in and buy up! =================================== Entry level blues, entry level dues. What really amazes me is that some experienced owners buy new with an entry level mindset, expecting less problems having paid more money. Rodger S.

"The service writer looked at the technician and the technician said, "We don't have a gauge!" Are you kidding me. This is the factory service center." Don't be surprised. When I took my specialist A/C class, the instructor said that there several problems plaguing the service repair side of the equation: 1) the technicians are often brought in from outside the industry and few are provided RV specific training. 2) troubleshooting tools are not often readily available because the focus is on replacing, not diagnosing. 3) the dealership technicians are poorly paid despite the demand. ================== Some of you old hands may always be right, but I'm never wrong. So straighten out and fly right. Rodger S.

Add on: No, inspections won't catch everything. The word new with respect to tires means nothing. The DOT date is what is more important, then a visual inspection. You should weigh the coach to see what your loading capabilities are. I agree that more than $50,000 would be questionable, but it seems a dp holds some value just because it is a diesel. (I would be willing to pay an extra premium if I concluded the coach had been taken really good care of and came with great documentation of the maintenance - this is really more a perceived value with a coaches 10 + years old) You didn't say you have had a look under the coach to check for rust. Basically, it sounds like a great opportunity you should not pass by without a darn good reason generated by the inspections, but that said, many inspection identified problems can be dealt with...the problem is not identifying them. Rodger S.

"l wonder about the costs of keeping it on the road, paying for chassis maintenance." This is not something unresolvable. I'm sure he will tell you things like mileage, you can review the maintenance schedules and talk to a local mechanic to get an annual estimate. You can control that by doing some of the work yourself as you well know. ======= I consider it a general rule that an older, quality built, dp is a best buy if it has been well maintained. Your inspection risk tradeoffs are: 1) owner's representations 2) written documentation 3) yours and professional inspections Your three critical areas are water damage/leakage, chassis, and engine. Your personal inspection is only as good as your knowledge base. Owner's representations mean nothing as too many owners basically have a use it until it breaks operating mode. Based on what you have represented, you need to have all three done by professionals. Plus establish a baseline with fluid tests. With an older dp, I would consider fire risks to be partially minimized by replacing the refrigerator, now and continually looking for discolored spots on the observable electrical system, and installing a fire suppression system in the engine compartment. And an additional electrical focused road ready inspection. Twice annual water damage and electrical system problem inspections. Possibly an infrared water damage inspection. ============ One of the best benefits of buying an old unit is doing interior upgrades. One of the worst results is missing an obvious problem because the buyer either was clueless or simply refused to pay for complete and detailed inspections. There are too many forum threads where someone had to cough up $15,000 more or less because they failed to do the inspections. Rodger S.

You must be right Carl. You seem to know a lot of those owners. Rodger S.

Five, They are buying a coach that is consistent with the status they wish to represent to others. I suspect the buyers don't really care about quality issues. They probably have the land yacht maintained and driven by one or more full-time chauffeur/mechanics. They probably have an arrangement with the mfg/dealer that the coach is road ready when needed and any repairs taken care of immediately, with mechanics available to fly out to the site. They probably don't tow their limousines but but make use of rentals including the driver. Same with any jets they are using. If their entourage is large enough, they may own several land yachts. Or course, there are exceptions, especially the used buyers. Some CEOs and entertainers fly their own jets. Rodger S.

My third inspection I identified a hot coach. The SB home wiring was not grounded and the extension cord was underrated for the electrical hookup...cord was very hot to the touch, but not sufficient to shock anyone on that particular dry day. We hunted around his house until we found a good ground, then I continued on with the inspection. As you know, the coach depends on the pedestal for its grounding. I find it easy enough to carry a voltage sniffer with me when I do inspections and am prepared to do a confirmation test, as a sniffer doesn't directly check the voltage. Easy to research if anyone wants to get into the details. I recognize I am dealing with low probabilities, but a certified technician should be more careful than an owner, just because we are trained to avoid being caught unawares across the broad range of issues. Yeah, I can be a real pain in the rear to work with. At the rental dealership, I smelled a propane leak and a fellow technician working on the vehicle blew me off. I got permission from the manager and checked the propane tank with my propane sniffer that went off, then verified it with a standard leakage test. We found a bad o ring seal that had been damaged by screwing it down too tight. My nature is similar to my Boxer, always alert. If I never find another hot coach, that is ok with me, I will continue to carry my various sniffers and such. I have no reason to trust people, coaches, dogs, and pedestals I'm unfamiliar with. And if I do trust, I make an effort to verify. (Use a quick read digital thermometer for cooking and taste as you go so you can adjust) Rodger S.