RodgerS

"I am one to maybe over research things a little.:" After two years and getting trained up, I'm still researching. My next step, after we go to France, is to rent a 5th/truck, a class A or two, and a Class B. Might even make a few more overseas trips. I'm not in the least bit in a hurry. In one forum, I was advised that this is a journey. Well, it isn't for me. For me it's a destination. Most advice comes not from the perspective of the questioner, but from the perspective of the member. This is just the opposite of working with a paid advisor who is more invested in making sure they understand your perspective.

I'm curious why you decided to focus on a used Newmar King Aire 4593, Essex or American Coach - Heritage 45T, because after two years of extensive research I would find it very easy to make an argument that a new Newmar Dutch Star, among several other candidates, would seem like one of several perfect, in general, coaches for a solely recreational, 6-mos of the year user. This assumes you will be moving the coach on occasion and you want to stay in luxury private campgrounds, since you are focused on a 45 foot luxury coach. I mention the Dutch Star because Newmar was one of your options and build quality is about as good as it gets and is very luxurious. At this level and complexity of a coach being considered, there is real value in a new warranty and depreciation would seem much less relevant to your financial and recreational situation, even irrelevant. My comparison would be to the experienced full-timers who sometimes buy new and simply want to hold onto the coach for a very long period of time and buy full-optioned coaches, knowing full well what is needed for their full-time living comfort. Sometimes they sell their homes and pay for cash, and sometimes they take on a loan. As to myself, I'm an odd man out. I plan to stay in one location for a long period of time, with some traveling to get to that destination. I also like the idea of a new running gear pulling a used 5th with a great kitchen I can feel comfortable cooking in. I also, having had a short stint for three months fixing rental motorhomes, have a bit of an aversion to a bus-like setting. So I'm not one to advise you, really. You should listen to the highly experienced owners and follow your own star.

I assume your intended use is recreational and/or full-time. One comparable "high-end luxury" coach I'm familiar with is owned by a winery in Napa, Ca and is used in their marketing efforts of the business and the owner's name...not really a recreational or full-time vehicle. In that case, financing makes more sense to me and is easy to finance through the business. Your professional paid advisors should be the ones you rely on. They will certainly find a way to obtain financing for you. Actually, now that you have provided more information, it would make more sense to me to buy a new coach and take advantages of the new financing options that would be available to you and the new coach warranties.

HuffyPuff, It seems unbelievable, but is actually quite reasonable from the dealer's perspective. That is why many owners try to sell the mh as a private owner sale to maximize the selling price. The dealers make a judgment as to the potential for selling a particular used unit. They really prefer consignment because they can basically not put any repairs or services into it (some dealers do = exception) until they sell it. They don't have to tie up any financing dollars either = flooring. If the trade-in unit doesn't sell within a reasonable period of time, they know they have to move it or take an even bigger hit later. The way to do that is to reduce the price significantly. They need a pretty good margin so they can make at least a minimal profit if they misjudged the market for your trade-in and have to kick it loose. If they made a good judgment they make a darn good profit, which helps to make up for some of their mistakes. If there are any astute buyer/owners in this industry, my personal opinion is they come in the following flavor: 1) they almost always buy used. One unique exception being experienced full-timers that really want a new coach and know exactly what they want and will keep the coach for a very long time. 1a) tend to buy for cash if they can. 2) they do most of the repairs and maintenance themselves and don't rely on warranties. 3) they mostly buy premium used dp units - basically the high-end but not the super bling stuff. 4) and they know a lot about the quality below the surface. 5) the five most important factors are the condition of the chassis including the engine, there are no water leaks or water damage, the condition of the chassis including the engine, there are no water leaks or water damage, the condition of the chassis including the engine. 6) they know to get the coach inspected thoroughly and don't get emotionally tied up in the buy or sale. 7) and they keep 15 to 25k or so cash on hand to deal with the unexpected and make repairs and upgrades. Just my un-humble opinion. Yep, that is what I think, but no, that doesn't mean I won't buy a new dually and a premium used 5th if I decide that is what will work for me.

Here are my thoughts. Your best buy for a motorhome will be a well-used premium motorhome like a Newmar, Country Coach, Monaco, etc. I'm talking about 10+ years old. Financing that will be difficult as those purchases are quite often part of the cash market. But you can easily buy a premium used dp for 80k to 120k much more or much less. Now compare that to buying a dp for say 225K or more, probably entry level quality, using a down payment, and probably going upside down on your loan at some point. Just remember that most investments are not guaranteed to generate earnings and gains. I have read many threads written by owners of diesel pushers that highly value their paid for dp and have no plans to buy up. Give that some thought. The key question is do you have the skills to maintain the home part of the mh and inspect the mh? And also are you willing to pay for one of more of the following: diesel mechanic, chassis mechanic, mh inspector as needed. If you don't have skills are you willing to train yourself up before you buy? And are you willing to budget 10 to 20K to upgrade your used coach, pay for new tires, etc. I think your decision is going to be what works for your situation and your comfort zone, and no amount of what others would do can be a reliable substitute for your situation. A mh is not a financial investment, but is an entertainment, money hole that rapidly and severely depreciates if you are close to new or late model. You can write off your interest, but it is not a dollar for dollar write off and your financial advisor makes money keeping your money tied up. If you buy at a dealership, the salesman often earns a financing commission.

CapKelly, I'm not planning on eating out every night, so if we link up, don't be afraid to ask. Susan and I will be staying in a local hotel. I don't know what I will cook up, but it won't be from a list of RV potluck recipes, it will be something simple from what we find in a local market that looks interesting and what you have in your kitchen and refrigerator to cook with. Look for the guy in a blue shirt that has a Certified RVIA Electrical Specialist patch on the front of it. Anything from a saute, to a soup, to a grill, etc. Yesterday made a 4 mushroom soup, brussel sprout snack, and Thai yellow curry chicken for the wife. The wife refuses to cook now, doesn't want to eat her cooking in place of mine. Wife is starting to balk at going out for dinner...I ask a lot of questions and refuse to order dishes that don't sound like they will be made in an acceptable manner. At a hamburger joint the other day, I asked what kind of frying oil they use and how often they changed it...nope, didn't order the fries. Waitress said I'm the first customer in two years to ask these kinds of "irritating" I'm sure...questions. But she got a good tip as she got the info back to me. Found a restaurant on the way to Sonoma. Will be going back there soon. The "Chef" uses all locally grown produce, freshly picked each day and uses a combination of cooking processes! Off to my Dim Sum class tonight! Rodger

I will also be there with my wife. Susan will take one of the Class A driving classes. I signed up about 6 weeks or so ago, and made an extra effort to sort out my RV Class preferences, like 5th or motorhome, ahead of the seminar. I believe the only way for me to get resolution to that will be to do some weekly rentals of a Class B, A, and 5th. All that is somewhat delayed as Susan is looking forward to France. At the moment, I'm enrolled in cooking school and Susan is enjoying my cooking, including my French dishes. The best RV for me may be the one with the best kitchen = 5th. Rodger Burn your recipes!

"If the consumer would be proactive in his or her education or knowledge of the subject matter, the results would likely be better" 1) The results would "definitely" be better. 2) When new buyers are told to focus on the floor plan, you can expect a lot of buyer remorse. 3) All of these less proactive experiences are par for the course across all the RV forums. 4) One of the advantages of a 5th wheel is not having to leave your "whole" motorhome at a dealership. 5) Also really a great idea is to work with smaller local repair shops. 6) I spent 3 weeks at an RV dealership in the service dept as part of my hands on training. I learned that it all begins and ends with the service advisor. If they don't like or respect you, they will let your service experience suffer. 7) Don't focus on Camping World, focus on the service advisor...it is about human beings, nor corporations. 8) One advantage of buying used and not buying an extended warranty is to take more personal responsibility for either doing the repairs yourself or finding a good local repair shop to take care of you. 9 ) The pay in the industry is too low for the technicians, the training of qualified technicians is not keeping up with demand, and the RV buyers are seen by the industry, for the most part, as owners of luxury entertainment items. Since the owners are lined up, and many owners are too trusting, the service departments can get away with quite a bit. Most owners are easy to b.s. They may have a lot of experience, but they often don't know much about the technical aspects of what they drive and how a service/parts dept works. And don't have the lemon law protections.

Here are some comments from a mfg of a wireless fence. "Doubled Effectiveness...The Best Friend Fence dog fence system keeps your pet safe because it restricts your pet's movement to dangerous places, and it also deters other animals (and even people) from entering your property and causing harm or damage. With Best Friend Fence, our simple instructions or professional installation options provide you with an effective and virtually invisible dog fence in no time. Accept no substitutes…Best Friend Fence Wireless Dog Fences will give you real property and furry friend protection, without the shock!" Note the key words "doubled effectiveness" and "deters." That tells me that it is not going to work with firm temperament dogs and dogs with strong prey drives. =================================== Here is a Petco PetSafe Wireless Instant Fence product Upon exiting the area, your pet receives a harmless but effective correction. Key words are "upon exiting," meaning the dog may or may not respect the "fence" after he receives a correction. A dog that responds aggressively to a negative correction or has a firm temperament (as in saying is that the best you can do) will ignore the correction and be on his way. ============================== Comment from another website: "The key is taking the time to train your pet. I have known of people to pay big money to install a fence, strap the collar on their dog and then complain that the fence is junk when the dog blows right through it." ================================ Comment from another website: "We used one for our german shepherd. He figured out that if he sat near the fence while the collar wasn't in complete contact with his neck, he could run the battery dead. After it stopped making noise, he would escape." ============================= Comment from another website: "Any of these are going to be completely ineffective in several ways. First, they will not keep other dogs (or coyotes) from wandering onto your property and messing with, f*****g, or killing your dogs. Second, they will not prevent the creepy kid from next door from wandering into your yard, poking one of your dogs with a stick repeatedly until it snaps at him, and getting sent to the ER while your dog is euthanized as a menace and you lose your homeowner's insurance forever. They can also be ineffective in other ways. If the dog is strongly motivated to leave -- ie there's a *very* sexy b***h in heat nearby, or a yummy bunny is running away -- it can leave any time it's willing to get a zap in exchange for the goodie." ================ Another comment "My uncle had one for his dog, and it figured out that if it ran full speed, it could clear the fence. If he really wanted out of the yard, he'd take the hit, shake it off, and keep running. Invisible fences, in general, can be effective for keeping dogs in, but their effectiveness will depend on the craftiness of your dogs." ================== Another comment "I have no experience as a customer of any invisible fence, but I can relate the following anecdote: someone in my neighborhood with a big corner lot set up an invisible fence to keep his two big (80+ lb) dogs in check. A couple months later, one of these dogs escaped and attacked a neighborhood kid. That house is now surrounded by an 8' stockade fence." ============================= Another comment "A friend of mine had a dog who decided that the freedom was worth the shock. He'd jump through, go hang out with his friends, wander the neighborhood - and then come home, sit down about 6" away from the invisible fence and bark until my friend came out, took off his collar and let him back in." ============================ ​Last comment "All of the dog-rescue folks I know hate those things with a passion, and have horror stories of dogs winding up in shelters, or dead on the side of the road, still wearing their shock collars. Smart dogs can and do figure out how to game the system, like odinsdream's GSD. More stoic or stubborn dogs can of course just run right through the shock if something sufficiently tempting wanders along...but the shock may then deter them from coming back home." Rodger

I would bet that effectiveness varies. My understanding, from information provided by Leersburg, is theoretical. Dogs vary in how they react to negative stimuli and corrections. Basically dogs have a temperament and a prey drive. Training and corrections vary dog to dog. Some dogs become very hard to deal with, for example, if a negative correction is applied. I have a Boxer with a firm temperament and a strong prey drive. You can research this to learn more, but when his prey drive kicks in it takes much more effort on my part to get his attention so I can get him under control. He is seven months old now and I have trained him almost daily and when we are "outside" he is never off leash. So, if I was considering such a fence at an RV park, it might work when he was relaxed and un-focused. If an animal or dog activated his prey drive, I'm guessing that most levels of shocks would be totally ignored by him. I'm not even sure that the higher levels of shock would work and he would simply crash through the barrier and continue onward. I don't really know, but since I'm responsible for his behavior and I understand how strong his prey drive can be having raised him since 2 months old, I would not be pleased to take the risk of losing my dog or letting him get into trouble, which would include another dog breaking through the barrier. I do have a Marco Polo monitoring system I can use to radar locate him, but that is basically an emergency backup if he escaped confinement. Having said all this, my dog is not aggressive, but he is over 50 pounds and I don't want him to have access to situations where he is without me or not on a leash. When we are outside, I take full responsibility for protecting him from incompetent owners and out of control dogs. Rodger

I would recommend going for a walk in your local farmer's market, picking out some fresh, locally grown produce and some herbs, then creating a dish from that using any cooking process or combination of processes you are familiar with. That would be fun, reduce your time hunting around for a different recipe, and be less stressful. For example, you could do a vegetable and chicken soup using a saute method combined with a clear or creamed soup method. Start with a mixture of carrots, onions, and celery and use one or more interesting vegetables and herbs you find. Use those things you already like! Take out your old vegetables in your refer, and leftover stems and cuttings you have saved in your freezer, and make your vegetable broth from them! Bon appetit (throw out your recipes) Rodger

Herman, I try to write in a very straightforward way. If you don't like my comments don't read them. If I have an "expert" opinion you don't agree with, you can offer up your "expert" opinion. ================ On the other hand, you might want to consider being more pro-active. Start requesting that the moderator delete comments of mine you don't like and/or that I be banned from the forum. You can make this forum a "safe space" for yourself. Note: you can also review each member's qualifications and decide which members are allowed to provide "qualified" opinions and which members are not allowed to provide "qualified" opinions. That is how the judge does it in court! The judge then takes the qualified expert's opinions and weighs each opinion based on its relevance, experience of expert, technical knowledge/education of expert, and quality of research done by the expert. However, the judge also pays attention to the demeanor of the expert and how he holds up under cross examination by the opposing attorney, and sometimes the judge will step in and ask some questions too if the attorney is not doing a good enough job. Rodger

Well Carl, you are somewhat right that: 1) I'm very happy and don't feel the need to run out and buy anything just yet. No need to escape or make it happen. 2) I certainly won't sell my home and go full-time. Not interested in the least. Part of why I'm reluctant to buy anything 40 ft for two people. 2a) As I mentioned, I am going to Kentucky and France this year among other places. 2b) I have traveled to about 25 different countries, so I'm pretty comfortable the world over. You could say, that doing that much traveling affects my desire to limit my traveling to one continent. Also why I'm reluctant to buy any RV just yet. 3) As to the class of RV, I like all the classes. One thing for sure, I have no plans on buying from a dealership or relying on service technicians to fix the "house" part of the RV for me. I will buy from a private owner and do any upgrades and fixing myself, if I go that direction. 3a)Susan is looking forward to learning to drive a Class A in Kentucky at RVSEF. 3a) My guess is that we will probably do a series of one week rentals. A class B+, a class C, a class A gas, a class A diesel, and hopefully a 5th and matched truck. What I value the most is my own personal seat time, my wife's input, and more time on the road where wife and I can sort out our personal usability thoughts. I have no interest in owning any one of them just yet. 4) No, I'm not going to buy based on other's opinions of what works for them. But, I do take some of those thoughts into consideration. 5) Back to cooking school Monday, so I need to refocus on what I'm cooking for tomorrow - Easter. Rodger

No, I don't value these off-handed opinions. None of the posters have actually demonstrated any experience with this "fix," nor any relevant or current technical knowledge related to it.

"Had coach 5 days leak not fixed!" That really doesn't mean anything. Most of that time it would be just sitting without anyone working on it. Now if you paid for 40 hours of service, then that means something. Unless you have paid to have it pressure/bubble testing, the service people are just guessing at the problem and experimenting with a solution. One of the dirty industry secrets is just how many technicians are parts replacement experts, but have huge gaps in their trouble shooting skills. ====== Right HuffyPuff, pressure leak/bubble testing is a great procedure. It is one of the tests I will pay for as part of the evaluation of a used coach or a 5th before I purchase it. One can make a pretty good argument for have a leak test done annually as part of the preventative maintenance. Doing roof maintenance doesn't mean one hasn't discovered/stopped one or more existing leaks. Over on another forum I had mentioned this test and got a lot of laughed at comments. I'm always amazed how many experienced RVers do not stay on top of the industry technology.

"fixes all suspension issues." The article doesn't represent it fixes all the issues. It makes a substantial contribution to ride ability. "over a hundred years of hands on RV suspension experience on the panel for the Q&A:" . Worthless, IMO, in the face of new technology. That is what new technology does, it leaves history and old knowledge and experience in the dust. When the game changes, if you are not on top of your game, you have been left behind.

Based on an article in Motorhome Magazine online, 2/26/16, it seems a reasonable solution to the ride ability problems of the gassers is at hand. It is not important to turn a gasser into a dp, nor provide "all" the benefits of a dp, but having a reasonably decent solution to the ride ability issue opens up the doors to those, like me, who would like to buy a new short gasser from Newmar or Tiffin and travel around the country with it. Not an option for all, but another alternative to consider, which for me is right on the money. I'm not planning on full timing and really don't want a 35+ length dp, new or used, nor all the "benefits" of a dp. Do a MM website search for SumoSprings to read the article.

I would start by removing your black tank, that way you don't need to remove any of your belly pans. What you are looking for should be just left of center.

An electrical circuit is the path or route the electricity follows back to its starting point. Your RV has many electrical paths, each of which include wiring, connections, and an interconnection of one or more electrical components within the path (closed loop) providing a return path for the current, not to forget the source of electrical power. So you may have a break in your circuit or a component failure or a bad connection or power failure. When there is an electrical failure, one of the first places to start is to check a breaker or fuse to see if one is open, to check the batteries to see if they are holding a sufficient charge, or to see if one of the connections is loose or corroded, a component has failed, etc. I think that was the thrust of Carl's suggestions. But your description is very confusing. There is no answer to where has my circuit gone! So, yes, get on the phone to Monaco.

I'm at my home in NorCal. I have continuous flow water and a never dump black/grey toilet..just flush it. It was raining on/off when I got into my space about 20 years ago. No setup or tear down since...about 0 min a day. Never have to go out and connect elect and water. Flush my black and gray stuff by turning a handle located on the toilet. Too much storage and too much stored. A neighbor came to me with a bottle of wine pointed up, took a second to pour some into my glass. Then it started raining again....I was having a steak dinner without any time lost for set up and the squirrels were soaked to the bone and my wife was gently encouraging me to cuddle up....they do that some times!! Neither she nor I needs to be on elect. to operate any jacks from outside! An hour ago, I was waking up and just now pulled out of bed! It has not rained since 7pm last night. I had one pass thru from one side of the bed to the other, about half what my wife has and she's got a bigger pillow. My Mercedes is nice and dry in the garage. May take a few second to put the top down if the sun comes out. Has a very gentle ride. Have air tickets to France. Case closed, though I'm not sure what my point is ! Edit note: just saw that the RV Business mag is showcasing the 2016 Keystone Montana 3820 FK 5th Wheel as the RV of the year. Hmmm....how can they ignore the truck part? Now a matching 5th and truck would make more sense. Maybe it would be wise to pro-rate the cost of the truck between the RV and the daily driver...that would be a step in the right direction! Of course a semi hauler would not be pro-rated with part to the daily driver if one matched a semi hauler up with the 5th.

The first link is to the 12 volt side of life part 1 of 2. Read both parts. http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm Then use general internet searches for more information. Once you understand how batteries discharge and how they are recharged, you can develop a process relevant to your situation to keep them charged. You will receive many helpful hints from various people, but you really need to get to know much more about them. Batteries are the beating heart of your RV.

Happy to respond to the following: "great deal on the used market" I agree that with more effort, than buying from a dealer, you can find a great deal in the used market. Some people restrict themselves to buying locally and that is understandable and I believe is more comfortable for some. However, if you look nationally you have more options, in particular if you are focused on a specific mfg like Newmar and if you focus on a model like a Dutch Star or Mountain Aire. Try rvt.com or rvtrader.com, for example. Before you travel to see the coach, you can spend some time asking the owner questions, request scans of their documentation, check with the mfg about the coach history, check with their local service provider, etc. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to find that the provided pictures and actual condition is often inconsistent. You can hire an inspector to check out the coach before you travel to look at it. "Even those who have "plenty of cash" should look at financing rather than tying up their cash in a depreciating asset." Right, however the 10 year and older coaches seem to be tougher to finance. At that point it is mostly a cash buyer situation. If you buy a 10 year or older coach, and upgrade it with a budget of say $20,000, the depreciation is significantly smaller. Financing a new or gently used coach is probably a good idea and certainly the salesman earns a financing fee so it is better for your salesman as well. However, there are some people who simply like not having to make payments. Paying with cash tends to influence MY personal buying decision towards older used with significant upgrades. "It is amazing to me all the 5th wheel aficionados whining about the "lost space" in the front of a class "A" Yet not concerned that they have nearly 75% less basement storage. By the way I could store things on the front shelf when not moving." Yes, there seems to be a lot of buyers remorse, even by mh owners for all kinds of reasons. I guess that is the nature of this industry. Seems like a lot of people bought without knowing what they were getting into...call it buyers remorse, not whining. "how is it better for a long term stay to have a trailer and a big truck to drive than having a diesel pusher with much more storage and a car that gets 30 mpg and easy to drive and park." It seems to me it is a matter of usage, which is personal. I'm not sure I want to own a mh if I plan to go to one spot and stay a couple of months, or stay for some period of extended time. I'm not sure I want to own a 5th if I move often like every few days or weekly. A mh seems like a better idea. I'm not sure I want to own a Class B if I want to stay more than one or two days at any one location. Again, a larger mh seems better. I'm not sure I want to own a Class A gas if I plan to travel across the U.S. I'm not sure I want to own a MH if it doesn't get traveled regularly, but sits in one place most of the time. I'm not sure, as I get older, that I don't want to try to foresee how that might affect my traveling and try to buy with some eye to that. I'm not sure anyone cares what anyone else does as long as it doesn't restrict our traveling and fun. Since my wife and I plan to travel internationally from time to time, not just in the U.S., I don't want to get too much cash $$ tied up in an Rv. Edit note: my wife and I have also talked about renting a villa overseas and staying in it for an extended amount of time like two or three months. That is also another option to staying in hotels and RVing, and we can visit a lot of countries that way.

Once you settle on your class, even if others don't like that class, but who cares what others think?, it is pretty amazing how after 10 years the price becomes quite attractive if you are comfortable with the challenge of buying used from a private party, have the cash, and the diy skills. But it is not as convenient as buying new on credit from a dealership, and even more convenient to able to look to others to fix everything on warranty, if not always the quickest way to get back on or stay on the road. RodgerS

Great balanced post MSgt. Here is another option - a super Class C, like a Jayco Seneca. Diesel engine up front, easy to work on, air bags in the rear and air seats in front, car air bags to protect passengers. Reported to ride as well as 4 bag DPs, but just what I have heard. Lots of towing capability and reasonably quiet. ========== Was driving back from a round trip to Sonoma yesterday, tied up traffic, small lanes, some rain...lots of frustration and stress...was thinking about the various Class options and what I would prefer after getting parked at the end of the trip. Probably prefer my home and a long hot shower. Traitorous thoughts. === Well back to cooking school soon so need to study and practice my imaginary Chef skills like how to cut an onion correctly. Need to keep my promise to wife to cook up a series of French dishes before we go there.