RodgerS

ObedB " experience and there really is no substitute for that. Period." Actually, as an expert witness in my previous life, the Judge would always look at your mix of experience, education, skills, and research that supported ones opinions. It may be frustrating when it appears responders aren't following the guidelines a poster requests, (it certainly is for me) but restating how insurance companies would react or what some of the legal requirements are doesn't hurt the discussion, even if it doesn't add value from the point of view of one or more of the readers. It may inform some readers and actually provide a chance for some to rethink the issue along other lines of thought. One thought. Professional working drivers are often backed up by a company, with deep pockets, lawyers, insurance, etc. Yes, some are independent as well. RVers are 100% responsible, legally and financially, which means they may be more focused and sensitive to legal and insurance issues and maybe they are worried about putting their retirement funds at risk and maintaining their access to this lifestyle. RodgerS.

Another thought. I will be attending the RVSEF conference in Kentucky in May. Their course list for attendees suggestst to me that would be a good place for you to be too. You can have access to their instructors and some of the mfg specialists to help sort it out. http://www.rvsafety.com/conf-info/conf-courses 2016 RVSEF Technical Education & Safety Conference Registration May 15 – 19, 2016 Pritchard Community Center, Elizabethtown KY

Great post, will read with interest the responses as that is one of the options I'm considering. Wished I had heard about this last week. I met a couple that were trading in their ACE for a Newmar gas Class A. He pulls a Silverado 1500 behind him. First time I had heard this was an issue. Thanks. I would suggest you shoot a similar email over to RVSEF to see if you can get a response from them. http://www.rvsafety.com/contact/contact-us Rodger S.

Just a note, not being argumentative: the new Chevy diesel hd dually truck was very, very quiet during the demo...that is one of the things they are known for. On the freeway it was smooth. Unfortunately, very hard to get a ride in a new truck hauling a quality 18000 lb 5th with a quality pin box and quality hitch. Hope to learn more in Kentucky at RVSEF. When I mentioned context, that means little information about the configurations whether MH or 5th. Just picking at in bits and pieces. Recently I read that there are differences in ride between 4 bags, 8 bags and tag 10 bags mh. The best ride I have had so far in a mh were in two CC Allures 8 bagers, as an inspector. My take is similar to the last poster, the trend is toward a MH with a towable. Safe to hedge your bets that way, but then all this is very personal. There is also a trend from 40 ft plus mh to class B's for part-time travelers with a home. Note: I have read where people went back to a 5th after owing a mh. All personal, all usage it seems. but the full-timer consideration is your key issue it seems to me and how often you will be on the road. It is not surprising that this becomes emotion because it is so personal. And, I'm not a trend.

Some thoughts: 1) if you ask the question in a forum where most people have a mh, that may be something to think about. 2) if you ask the question in a forum where most people have a 5th, that may be something to think about. 3) this question is discussed in a lot of forums, so you may wish to expand your research to reading some of those discussions as well. 4) few repliers will give you enough context, in my opinion, but as you read a lot of these discussions, some of the context begins to seep through. 5) I am solidly planted on the fence. What probably will shift me over is a) I really like having a broad range of towable vehicles to choose from like a small car, a jeep, or a light 4/4 truck and 2) my wife can get motion sickness, so the smoothest rides help a bit, but even better if she is driving sometimes helps her avoid getting sick...she hates taking the medications. 6) We are going to the RVSEF conference in May and Susan is signed up for 3 hours of driving a Class A. 7) I'm the cook and I like the 5th kitchens and I like the more homelike feeling of a 5th. So, you see, it is not a perfect decision but one with multiple compromises for me. I really don't want to keep moving every one or two days, and since I will keep my house, it is harder to justify a used dp, but they are the best buys out there imao. My personal adds mostly based on my readings, not actual experience: a) Tear up and down time has been reduced quite a bit by 5th that has automatic leveling and automatic reset of pin height. If you keep moving, yes, you could get worn down backing in to spots every day. If you don't move as much that is less of the backing up and the tear down and setups. I don't like the idea of my wife walking around the MH when I'm driving, and If I have to use the toilet and I'm driving, I would have to stop anyway. I'm 15 years older than my wife so most of the stops are for me and mostly I'm driving. As for the rain, I like the rain, but not always, so its a toss, and how much rain will I be setting up in...unknown. c) I drove a 1 ton Silverado dually and liked it and I think it would mostly be ok as a daily driver. for me..but I'm speculating. I'm 66 and in very good shape from years of playing tennis and working out in the gym. d) a lot of the 5th hauling tiredness issues appear to be substantially and well-addressed by some of the high quality pin boxes and hitches...at least that is what I'm told in the 5th forums. For example like a Mor-ryde pin box and Trail Aire hitch. e) should be easier to have a chevy truck repaired or maintained, than a dp. (big truck draw for me!) f) you can add a generator to a 5th, but generally it will be of the type that runs off propane. g) I don't like most MH floorpans, but some I can live with, and I can remodel to fit my needs. Being on top of the technology has value. Newmar dp comfort drive and aqua-hot water delivery have value. Hard to put one hands on build and product quality in this industry, but great if you have up-skilled yourself as I have. Less stressful about some of these concerns.

Sounds like there will be no way to decide without some seat time unless you simply want to easily cover your bet and go with the dp and can afford the extra costs and potential down-time. Unfortunately, unless you are a full-timer and want the longer models, it seems to me that MOST choices in used dp are 40 and greater in length. Tiffin Breeze, Newmar Ventana, Country Coach, and Tiffin Red have some shorter models out there, but be prepared to pay a premium for well-kept models (with provable documentation) with key options like Aqua-Hot and Comfort Drive, even as much as $30,000 over high NADA...based on my research these last couple of years. My recommendation would probably not be welcomed by some or even many, but buy based on technology, and if used be sure to check out the chassis/engine, weight capacity vs actual weights, electrical system documentation, and water leakage issues. Best of luck. I'm torn between two classes that are both equally desirable to me.

I'm pretty sure the responders understood that the power is provided by the DC source, otherwise they would not have been providing advice to you. They would have also understood that 12 VDC is the source for smaller consumer and commercial inverters and that they typically run from a rechargeable 12 V lead acid battery. Should have been a minor error. A few future contextual thoughts. ​Your MH has three electrical systems, and multiple actual and potential power sources. Not only should you have a basic understanding of electricity, you need to understand these three systems and the potential power sources to power these systems. You should be able to draw these out for yourself so you have a basic chart to refer to when you have problems. This would be much more simpler than your relevant wiring diagrams. See some examples on the internet. It can be very hard to do troubleshooting via emails relative to the owners knowledge and electrical skills, and yes their problem statement. I prefer being there with the owner so I can ask some contextual questions before I starting thinking about solutions. I try not to assume that the problem statement is good enough to start with - that what the owner was doing, for example, before the problem started may change the solution path. An example of the difficulty of email consulting was where an owner stated he had checked the fuses. Later on it turned out the problem was with one of the fuses. It is a lot easier to ask someone to orally explain how they checked the fuses and what fuses they checked and the location of the fuses they checked, than to do the give and take in an email...and then recheck them if appropriate. But, I applaud those who want to be helpful and provide email advice. I hope you have found the responders advice helpful. Note: it can take quite a bit of writing to explain how to check fuses and the various tools you can use and how to use those tools.

Good Job to FMCA. Thanks for your efforts.

My understanding is that the v10 and F53 are very durable, that the engine properly maintained goes closer to 200k. I do know the mechanics at the rv rental center where I worked were fans. I believe the units we put up for sale was more a function of their being entry level units that went through about 10 years of usage in one year. The interior was completely falling apart, but the chassis was in great shape. However, I think the gas chassis was designed for certain performance criteria, which did not include a smooth ride, and I believe it is left up to owners to make any upgrades they want for safety and handling improvements...commonly discussed. If I was planning on shorter, rather than longer mileage trips, I would seriously consider a Tiffin or Newmar Class A gas, and budget $2,000 to $5,000 for the common upgrades done by a shop. Since the wife and I plan on longer trips we are more focused on a used dp, or used 5th and New hd dually truck. One of the issues that may finally push me one direction or another is the benefits of towing a jeep and my belief that the ride gap between dp and gas, despite the F53 aftermarket upgrades, is still too wide...that leads me to a used dp. All the extended warranty nspections I have done have been of dp units, so I've experienced some pretty good rides, especially with the old Country Coaches.

For me, I'm focusing on how I will use it. That's why I keep rolling between various class types to be sure we have thought deeply about all our options. When we were in Yosemite, my wife and I agreed that the high mobility of a Class B was a big draw and there are some people who are focusing on downsizing from larger motorhomes as well. But as I mentioned to my wife, I believe we will want to stay more than one or two days in some places, maybe even a month or so, and I don't think I can mentally deal with being that tightly confined. Plus our 50 going on 65 or more pounds of Boxer will make the fit even tighter. Anyway, when I looked at a new Pleasure Way XL, it was well designed and had a great floor plan, which opened some possibilities, but the minimal cargo carrying capacity and cargo space, really makes that a poor choice for me despite its excellent mobility and my mental limits. No place for my service technician tools, for example. So despite keeping an open mind, the fundamental issue of usage, not floor plan, quality, or anything else, dominates our discussions, not just the pros and cons of each class.

Carl, I do agree about the value of experience, but I don't agree that one should not question what experienced people tell you. In fact, not only is experience important, but also knowledge and research, and staying up on the technology. Two examples when I was working at the rental rv place. 1) The older experienced lead tech was basically, from my point of view a parts replacement tech. Whenever the compressor was not working on an A/C unit he simple replaced the roof unit. One day the replacement didn't work and he threw up his hands and said the replacement was a bad unit. The manager was frustrated because this was a big class A that needed to go out the next day and we had no more replacements. I had just finished my A/C course and asked him if I could troubleshoot the unit. I found that the controller board inside the class A unit was defective. We replaced it and the A/C worked just fine. 2) When we put units through the car wash, water got into the furnaces. That same older experienced lead tech simply replaced the motherboard in the furnace to get the furnace working again. When I received a unit that had that problem, I dried out the place where the motherboard sat and cleaned the bottom of the motherboard. The unit then worked just fine. In each instance the older lead technician was very hostile about learning that parts did not always have to be replaced. Rodger

Note: there are something like 12 to 15 different dog aggressive behaviors. All dogs exhibit one or more of them. Some of the worse bites come from small dogs. Small dogs are often the least trained dogs out there. I worry more about small dogs than large dogs, because of the owners, not because of the dogs. All the concerns about discriminations and the limitations in place have much more to do with the owners.

I have a well-trained Boxer. Outside the home he is always on leash. He is six months, been trained since two months, using Leerburg methodology. Recently at Yosemite he was very well behaved around the other hikers and dogs. The other hikers and dogs were often not well behaved around my Boxer. The key to training is knowing their temperament and how they respond when their prey drive kicks in. One must also understand alpha and group behaviors. Few owners understand that when the dog prey drive kicks in, mostly outside the home, they won't have the same control over their dog. Also the dog and owner needs to be trained for off-leash high distraction situations. Imo this accounts for many of the traveling problems. A Boxer, such as mine, is a working dog and when he goes into prey drive he is a lot to contend with. Fortunately, his training progresses towards off-leash high distraction situations. It is also my responsibility to protect him from other dogs. I do not rely on other owners to control their dogs. I take full responsibility for his interactions and assume nothing about other dogs or owners. Imo the private parks are well justified for implementing breed restrictions. An owner's representations are not enough. It is well known across forums that not all places where one might want to park will allow certain breeds. It is also well known that not all the hiking trails I go on allow dogs. Just like the Class A parks and the cities that don't want MH owners parking near home owners. All those restrictions/discriminations are fine with me. Plenty to do elsewhere. Yosemite is a great dog friendly national park. Note: I'm always on call and ready to protect my dog if attacked by another dog. I have two levels of protection. So far, around my neighborhood I have been able to control other dogs just by my alpha control presence and commands. Some day that will fail and then I will use either one of two protective devices. Last night a pit bull came flying out of his house towards me. I stopped him in his tracks about two yards away from me. I was ready for him, the pit was not ready for me. If he had come forward, I would have put him down.

Living in an RV is useful, but repairing everything in one also gives you a pretty good perspective as well. The class A's I repaired were entry level units and in one year went through about 10 years of usage.

1) TV's out of sight range, you have to turn your head 90 degrees to see it. One had it mounted next to the cook top (class A DP), not sure how that will look in a few years. Yep, kinda of strange to me to see all these tv's, let alone where they are place. Fortunately, I read a lot of books most of the time. 2) unable to access back bedroom or restroom with slides closed. Hard to close the door to the toilet, needed to move my legs around, while sitting down in one unit I looked at a couple of days ago. 3) overall construction quality was very poor. screws laying on the floors and counters, valences falling down. Yes, pretty common. 4) sink in one bathroom wedged deep into a small space, not sure my kids could access let alone an adult, when there was another location that it could have been mounted. My guess is they placed it as close to the gray tank as possible.just flimsy construction products all throughout. Yeah. I think there are two critical problems. One is that quality of construction materials adds weight. Two, that the industry is where the auto industry was in the 1970's, before the Japanese challenged the market with quality control systems. Nothing to force this market to be better. --------------------------- So, one way to deal with this is buying a used premium dp and redecorating it. Of course, it may mean doing some diy skill building to upskill oneself, which is why I learned the technical service side of things, though it is not common for most owners to do what I did so I could fix most things myself, except for the chassis. For example, you can pretty easily pull out a sofa and install a lift tv inside that would be at eye level.

Sounds like it is time to switch from plug and play, to doing some troubleshooting. So, you may want to consider calling in a mobile technician, unless you are in Northern California, and can swing by my place. RodgerS.

- At some point it dawned on me that being able to fix most of this stuff myself had some value. - I have read there are a few people like me who studied this for a couple of years before they purchased. I'm in that category. I will buy when, what, and on my own terms. I'm not preventing you from doing what you want, and I'm not complaining about your replies, but I will say what I think. Things that I think are overboard include: 1) telling me to run out and buy someones dp because it will be trouble free. 2) telling me to jump in and buy something. 3) telling me my thinking is odd. 4) telling me that a key advantage of a dp is where you can potty. 5) telling me what a great expert I am with a snide tone. I get paid for my RV opinions as an inspector, that's a fact. 6) I don't promote myself as an inspector, I'm hired as one and only work for one company. That is a fact. 7) Glad I've been seen several places, guess that person was there too. 8) Yep, I'm disqualified from having an opinion on anything RV because I don't own one. Well, either I'm right or wrong and anyone can set me straight - I love discovering I'm wrong. 9) Yes, tell me to go elsewhere to another forum. Let's get rid of anyone that doesn't sing the approved song. No problem. Fine with me.

But, I will respond as a courtesy: 1)When you arrive you have to exit to set up, in bad weather that can be a pain. ​This was commonly mentioned on all the threads I read. Thanks. 2) When you arrive, the trailer is at ambient temps inside, cold or hot can be uncomfortable for some,while waiting for the systems to get the unit to your desired temp. ​This was commonly mentioned on all the threads I read. Thanks. 3) While in travel, you are at the mercy of using rest stops or gas stations for the potty. ​This was commonly mentioned on all the threads I read. Apparently, dp drivers can put the coach on cruise mode and go use the potty. Ah, thanks. 4) While in travel, stopping for a meal often cannot be cooked in the trailer without opening the slides, then most do not have generators if you need power, again you will be at ambient temps inside while this is all happening, chances are you will be done before the temps are comfortable. ​This was commonly mentioned on all the threads I read. A little creativity might help. Generators can be purchased and installed in the the 5th or the truck. Ah, thanks. 5) The bucking and bouncing down the highway getting blown around gets old quick with a trailer. ​This was commonly mentioned on all the threads I read. 5ths seem to be better and dp owners also complain about trucks and stuff blowing them around... ​Yes, quite a challenge managing all this. Ah, thanks. 6) I am sure here are downsides to motorhomes for some, if there is any they don't bother us. Are you joking with me??? The threads across forums are rife with complaints by dp owners. Ah, thanks. 7) We often travel with friends with Trailers, these are the struggles I witness, and I have my first drink down, they are still setting up. One safety concern; when a trailer is set up you have no brakes to keep it secure in its spot, (unless it has air brakes) I watched one roll at a campground last year as it pushed the chocks along and the scissor locks between the wheels fell off. Just my two cents, go for what ever works best for you and enjoy it. ​ This was commonly mentioned on all the threads I read, as well as problems dp have had like fires and rollovers. I don't drink, don't need the booze. I'm in very good physical shape and don't mind getting off my duff. Do I need to go into safety concerns on dps? Ah thanks.] You did read my post that I have read lots of discussion on this. Nothing you said added to those discussions. Note, since retirement I have earned my rv electric technician special and am an rv inspector for an extended warranty company. Am I listening, yes. Are you listening or reading? I don't know. Last add: historical experiences are excellent, but not keeping up with the changes in technology is devastating. When was the last time you reviewed the new 5th wheel technology, not just the dp technology?

Advanced member: With due respect, after reading 6 threads on the subject as I mentioned, I don't think I need to be reminded of the downsides of dp or 5ht combos. None of your comments were ignored in those threads, but repeated many times.

Carl, Turning a class B into a toad, now that is a creative idea I had not heard before. All this talk about new is pretty interesting, as well as the idea of new high quality trailer and new semi hauler hauler about equal in cost to a new 45ft. Leaving the concept of New land yachts for a moment, for about $80 to $140, you can have a used high quality dp or a used trailer/hauler. So, your argument works new or used. With a 5th combo, you can mix new and used. A rough rider (smile) over in another forum asked me to take a ride in a new chevrolet silverado hd dually diesel truck...the concept being that the trucks have changed so much that one can actually use it as a daily driver when not towing and with a payload of 7,100 lbs and towing capacity of 22,600 pounds, it should be part of ones serious consideration. My wife certainly likes 5ths and the concept of a reasonable multiuser vehicle. One interesting thing I discovered that the engine hood allowed me to know where both sides of the dually were in relation to the road...don't know if that was intended, but it was a nice surprise and added a big feeling of comfort for me. I'm not gonna say it rides like a cadillac, but I will say, it was an epiphany for me and a really great daily ride except in really rough terrain. On the freeway...just amazing - smooth and quiet. Plan A: do nothing and enjoy the daily tips Plan B: a used Newmar 40 dp Plan C: a new Silverado dually and a used premium 5th like a DRV. I spent several hours reading about 6 different long dp vs 5th threads. Frankly, like you say it is very personal and the tradeoffs and compromises are also very personal. One man's horse is another man's donkey, so to speak. I'm amazed at how how the need to take a leak in their dp while traveling seems to be the primary choice driver for some...a traveling old age rest home for some (smiles/joking). Happy husband, happy life.

You should go back to the person who told you this and ask them which places they are talking about. If they give you a name, call and ask about it. If they say that a super C is not allowed than ask why. Recently I bought a fire pit. I asked the girl in the dept. if our city had any restrictions on fire pits. She said no. I asked her if she had actually knew because she had checked. She said no, just never heard of such a thing. Along came a guy who also worked there and said the city wants fire pits 24 feet from your dwelling. I'm trying to suggest that it may be useful to ask follow up questions as a sort of habit. OR, I would see if there is a Dynamax forum where lots of people own Super C's and ask the question there.

If you put up some general internet searches, you can finally plenty of information across many forums, you can easily access.

There are books and articles, easily findable with a general internet search, that can provide an education as to what goes on in dealing with a salesman and a dealership, how to understand pricing, quality, and the need for doing your own PreDeliveryInspection. I prefer knowing what is going on so I can control the buying process, rather than looking for that elusive fully trustworthy salesman that really doesn't exist. I do understand you would like to keep your time minimized and to make the process easy, but this is not the situation for it.

Newbie: "My biggest pet peeve is how the coach makers seem to want to outdo each other on how many sofas/love seats/couches they can cram into the living room area. I would much prefer detached recliners." My take on this is that there is a large group of RVers who are very sociable. When I see two sofas in a dp, my assumption is the buyer likes the idea of inviting people over for food or wine, to play games, to bring family, etc. I'm sociable, but tend to prefer doing things with my wife most of the time. I have no problems with this issue. It is very simple to toss out one of the sofas and put a pair of recliners in its place. I would then put a pop-up tv behind the other sofa. ​If I bought new I might be irritated more about it, but buying used I would feel quite comfortable doing some remodeling. 40 feet usually gives me a lot to work with. Note: I have batted around the idea of a 5th quite deeply, but my intended usage pushes me towards a dp: 1) moderate plus mobility and 2) moderate plus livability. I see a 5th as moderate mobility and high livability. The front living room 5ths are amazing. The 5ths often come with dual recliners and one couch and a tv in front of the recliners...just about perfect, but...then... Rodger

Carl, Yosemite was beautiful. There was still some snow on the ground and the roads were all clear. Valley RV campground was about 50% full. Very minimal traffic on the roads. Mostly photographers and painters, with a few hikers. Hit a BBQ stand on the way back home that night. We walked through the RV campground, which included some tents, and chatted about the various setups. I also talked to a couple in a Travato Class B in one of the hiking parking lots. The couple, about the same age as my wife and I, had two small dogs with them and the wife looked a bit ragged, as in fighting to make it work (the way people look who have tents, when they just popped out of the tent). How they were using it was within my expectations for a Class B - lots of mileage with one or two night stays in each location. Easy to pull into a Starbucks parking lot for drinks. My wife and I worked the concept of a B class over as to a similar trip, but staying a couple of weeks in the Valley. Really excellent mobility, but really tight livability. We concluded it would be a great choice for us EXCEPT that we intend to stay more than 2 nights in any one place and one can't carry much with you. My wife did think she could get used to the marine toilet and was willing to entertain the idea if I wanted to go that direction. My conclusion was that I don't have the mental discipline to be that tightly confined for a one to two week stay at each location, even if I put a screen room out. Plus, my Boxer is expected to weight 65 pounds, and would hem us in even more, unless we kenneled him. Rodger