RodgerS

Just saying...from a safety perspective... In addition to more proactive and regular black tank flushing, cleaning, and venting procedures... Add more BBQ steaks, smoked pork ribs, slow-cooked chicken, sugar, salt, beer and wine to your diet to reduce methane gas. Avoid beans, fruit, vegetables and health food stores that increase gas. Following this methodology I have lost 10 pounds, lowered my blood pressure, and write happier posts to the forum. I don't even need a black tank!!!

Seems to me the owner needs to purchase at least three tanks, so that he has two tanks for the future. I googled this issue and found out that an exploding septic tank is not unheard of...he had a build up of methane gas that he failed to vent...in humans we call this farting to control pressure buildup. "Improper venting, anaerobic decomposition of the solids can and will produce methane gas." "Methane gas that is produced by bacteria inside the septic tank is the same gas that my gas company pipes to my house to run my stove and central heat. its natural gas and it can ignite. venting is crucial in really big septic tanks to keep this gas from accumulating." Based on my research, I think the owner has an excellent sustainable living opportunity = rather than replace the black tank, put in a system to capture and then use the methane gas in place of propane. Here is a link to a diy methane generator: http://www.small-farm-permaculture-and-sustainable-living.com/methane_generator.html

The following video was great fun to watch. It is easy to imagine such a trailer having a lot of issues for the dealer and owner to contend with. The young guys were really hustling and were obviously on a time clock. Not hard to imagine what decisions an individual would make when they get tired or have other things on their mind to keep up with the clock, especially if the next unit they build is a different model. No old farts need apply.

ELKHART — "An ongoing series of controversial columns penned by RV Daily Report Editor Greg Gerber has certainly captured the attention of the North American RV arena, including industry insiders as well as consumers whom, he maintains, often harbor “seething anger” over the industry’s quality, warranty and service issues." "I’m going to attack every segment of the industry because they all play a role in it. Manufacturers, suppliers, campgrounds and dealers are all dropping the ball. Consumers are contributing to it by their behavior and purchasing decisions." RV owners...have been surprisingly supportive. I think they are the ones bearing the brunt of these problems in the industry. They are the ones frustrated beyond words with product quality. They are the ones who have to give up their lifestyle for weeks and months at a time to get problems fixed. And they are the ones who now are having trouble getting campground spaces." "We are in a political situation in this industry where two big corporations control the entire thing. Technically, it’s three when you throw in Keystone/NTP-Stag. All of them can exert tremendous pressure on suppliers – as monopolies can do – to squelch viewpoints that they may not necessarily agree with." "And if this industry does not want to self-regulate product quality, I can assure them that consumers are going to start going to their state and federal legislators and they’re going to scream loud and hard.And the industry is going to probably start facing Lemon Law regulations that they wish they hadn’t. And consumers are going to pick up pitchforks and they’re going to charge Capitol Hill and they’re going to say, ‘Look, this is a big problem, and nobody’s listening." "Greg Gerber still loves the lifestyle and still loves the industry. But what changed for me — that many in the industry don’t do — is that I got one of their products and started using it. I saw how frequently it breaks down and how much money it costs to get it repaired. I know how hard it is to get service from an RV dealership, especially if you didn’t buy the RV there. So Greg Gerber understands, from the eyes of a consumer, what the industry is doing. Buying this RV and hitting the road was the biggest eye-opening experience of my professional life because the things that we had written about in the past I had no idea really what it was." To read their interview with Gerber: http://www.rvbusiness.com/2016/07/the-buzz-whats-with-gerbers-death-spiral/

Even if you pay to remove it, it has to go somewhere else OR go through some tear down and disposal process. Can't just bury it, right? It is built on a frame of metal and that can be scrapped. You could burn the wood. Either way there has to be a tear down and you are left with a lot of nasty stuff to get rid of. There are auto salvage yards and I believe there are some RV salvage yards or boneyards, at least for some MHs where parts are needed because the mfg went out of business...orphan MHs.

Carl: could be a very old example? I think the example is spot on and relevant even if the new price was double...the issue really being focused on the severe loss in value due to water damage. I have read quite a few posts in various forums where inexperienced owners bought water damaged RVs ASSUMING they could fix it easily and it would not be expensive...and later went into shock once they started taking things apart and getting cost quotes. Over in Gerber land, he wonders what happened to some RVs that have seemingly disappeared...many are located in my town. I know of about a dozen that appear to be permanently parked and abandoned on the owner's property, within walking distance of my house...I have no idea what it costs to recycle them, but probably more than a typical trip to the local dump costs.

Interesting comment from my research on Dutchman about the randomness of competitors PDIs. Sounds about right to me and that would include I think, the dealer inspections = sounds like the real industry standard. However, I do believe some competitors are representing otherwise...focusing on the thoroughness (not random) of their inspection as their quality control methodology. ========================================== In part 2, Gerber mentioned that Evergreen RV just went out of business. The building Evergreen made the Lifestyle Luxury 5th in was just purchased by Dutchman who is owned by Keystone. "EverGreen RV’s chief financial officer, Joseph Katona III, wrote...the company is ending production because it could not obtain needed financing or credit." http://www.goshennews.com/news/business/dutchmen-rv-buys-evergreen-rv-s-lifestyles-plant/article_9610271a-5c7a-5999-84db-8744a4e04d97.html I was pretty sure it had a cash problem. Growth companies often had problems with their cash flow, among other issues. Interestingly Dutchman said "The major improvements to our manufacturing process and quality that we have made over the past 24 months are really paying off." Since this is a very general statement I went up to their website to learn more. I found this comment in one of the brochures "At Dutchmen, quality is our standard. Every single Dutchmen RV that comes off the line receives its own pre-delivery inspection. Typically, a competitor performs random inspections, meaning you won’t nd this commitment to quality anywhere else. "

While we are waiting for the last three installments, here is another good read written by an attorney. http://livingstingy.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-rv-industrys-dirty-litle-secret.html

I believe that public exposure of these problems will steadily inform more new RV buyers, who will then be tougher sells...and that will drive change. If every buyer insisted on a paragraph in their contract where the dealer had to agree that the "living quarters" would be subject to local lemon laws i.e. buy back under certain conditions, the sales of new MHs would come to a halt...change would have to happen.

"Many of the cited problems concern trailers which are the low end of the market and more problems could be expected there." I'm not sure if that matters as to the conclusions. Recently, on this forum, there was quite a bit written about the problems with an American Dream MH. In another forum I recently read extensively about the easily overloaded front axle on the 2016 Newmar Dutch Star. I am sure I could easily replace the author's trailer cites with MH cites, with very little effort. But, I would agree that the lower end of the market tends to have more problems - those are the type of MHs I worked on when I helped a rental business for a few months. I have yet to hear many advocates of buying used entry level Thor MHs vs a lot of owners positively advocating used Newmar, Monaco, and Country Coach MHs.

This is, in effect, a comprehensive and complex public outing of the industry. The industry relies on a highly effective and aggressive promotion, across many varied sources of RV information, of an unrealistic dream and first impressions. It will now be a lot easier and quicker for new-to-the-industry buyers to inform themselves, pierce the fog, adjust their expectations, and make better decisions.

Below is the link to part 1 in a series of articles that are currently in process at that website. Several parts are available at this time. http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/opinion-the-rv-industry-death-spiral-part-1/ “Would you just shut up, Gerber! There’s nothing to see here. Move along.” Rodger S.

Nothing in my post includes an expectation of walk in maintenance. It is all about building relationships, identifying the big cheese, and getting on their positive radar...assuming the OP can keep his emotions in check....very hard considering what he has suffered. And hey, why not put some owners into their Kaizen groups so they can say "Our Kaizen groups include recent buyer/owners who contribute their real world experiences and feedback as part of our team to meet our goals of having best in the industry quality control processes." And as a valued member of their family jleamont should suggest they institute an Ambassadors program so he can help become one and help them promote their coaches, just like Leisure Travel Vans does! For all the energy some members expend with forum complaints and trying to get fixes the hard way, why not try something a bit more interesting and involved.

I suppose one argument for a class A is to benefit from Class A only resorts. However, I'm thinking more along the line of "We don't go out to hang around in the (private) campground, we're out at museums, hiking in parks, playing golf, carousing bars, tasting wine, visiting (new) friends and/or out somewhere having a good time, (taking photos, flying a tri-plane, fishing, hitting an occasional top chef restaurant, swimming),. We sleep and shower in RV parks." ================================================ "My guess is either just for the experience or he's had it with the tents, cabins or other 85% not mentioned above. " Yeah, but I'm not worried about the class of my neighbors...I plan to move on as soon as possible if I don't care for the company. Currently I live in a pretty wild neighbor hood and I have just found ways to get by without getting all pushed out of shape or getting upset. AND I thought that was supposed to be a benefit of a Class A, to just get up and leave??? ========== I have some past experience with a tent, a truck camper, and a Class C, so I have been around a lot of problems, but I do have a bit of trouble figuring out why some members seem to have bigger problems that I have with my stick and brick house??? I mean I can't imagine posting up a complaint about my neighbors. I just find a way to work through it as I did when I was camping. Rodger S.

Again stay positive, as your mg says per their website "We believe that every luxury motorcoach owner deserves an extraordinary journey, and you are on that journey!

In answer to what to do at the mfg site: I have another positive idea for you. Consider taking a trip with your RV to the mfg. simply for the purpose of taking a tour, but do this with a positive attitude. Take your list of problems with you during the tour and try to figure out during the tour how these problems could have developed. As the mfg suggests, get involved and build your relationships, especially with whoever is involved with quality control and inspections. As they say, they will be thrilled and so should you. As you meet and chat with their associates ask for their help on understanding why you ended up with each issue on your list. They are proud of their end products. See their website. “Plant Tours We believe that building a relationship with the people who sell, build and service your motorhome is a vital part of your ownership experience. That's why we're thrilled when people visit our factory in Decatur, Indiana. During your tour of our manufacturing facilities, you can meet and chat with our service and manufacturing associates. You'll also see firsthand the time, energy and pride that goes into each of our motorhomes. Plus, you'll get a sneak peak at the latest models and innovations we are developing.” Discuss with them how their mfg principles relate to the quality issues you are faced with. Suggest they hold one of their kaizens with you as a real life example to connect principles to customer experiences. “Implementation of LEAN Manufacturing principles and elimination of waste in our operations creates value for our customers through improvements in cost, quality, and delivery, which ultimately reduces total lead time. We have held several 5-day kaizen continuous improvement events and hundreds more point kaizen events in a wide range of focus areas, including: Shop floor Quality Production Preparation Business Processes Managing for daily improvement The results of this transformation have improved performance in all aspects of our business, including; Safety, Quality, On-Time delivery, Warranty cost reductions, Associate morale, Team building, Project Management and Productivity. Continuous improvement is a core element of our business model at ARG.”

Just a minor thought having "actually worked with a lot of attorneys (that experience thing), been deposed a lot and been to court as an expert witness and fought a lot of "experts." A letter from a small town attorney doesn't necessarily wake them up, especially when it gets answered by well funded corporate attorneys...Just see how you hold up when your attorney smiles and asks for another $10,000 and then dumps you if you don't fund him up. I would recommend dumping the coach before going to war, and get back on the road as quickly as possible. Another lesson of RV ownership learned and happy dollars thrown down the money pit. Actually, I recommend adopting Five's approach, but it is gonna take quite a bit of patience and persistence that will likely work to a satisfactory result....but hey, it always feels good to hire an aggressive attorney. Rodger S.

Carl, you touched on something that could be explored further in this thread "I would not buy a used coach, no matter the make, that has gone swimming ! As the OP said, "MOLD"." I think there is always some risk that a seller of a used coach has failed to disclose to the buyer a prior leak and water damage. And that a leak test or water damage inspection may not uncover past water damage or a previously repaired leak. Here is a research thought. 1) Be sure to check carfax and the warranty history with the mfg. 2) Even if repair and maintenance documentation is missing, you can probably get permission from the seller, if this is an up and up deal, to call his RV repair service(s) and get permission with them to review the repair and maintenance history, and any recommendations they have made that have not been acted upon. Many people have argued with me that it is unreasonable to expect documentation from most sellers, but none have ever suggested the technique of connecting with the RV repair service or dealer, with the permission of the owner, that I have done on some of the warranty inspections, to dig a bit deeper into the history of the coach and its current condition. Rodger S.

Note: the reason I would offer a low price is because I doubt the growing pains are old news for this coach and there are plenty of excellent gently used coaches available to choose from. Rodger S.

"Bad publicity doesn't sell motorhomes." That should be a meaningful statement and sometimes it is. Last year Newmar responded to the complaints regarding the easily overloaded front axle on its 2016 Dutch Stars. On the other hand, the tremendous number of quality control problems I have read in more than two years in multiple forums suggests otherwise as few of the new prospective buyers are reading the forums and asking for assistance from the experienced members. For some reason, the OP was surprised by the quality control failures he was faced with, but I doubt the experienced forum members were surprised, though certainly sympathetic and I'm sure disappointed to hear this continuing saga. I think most buyers see the beautiful interiors, whether entry level, moderate, or luxury, and buy based on first impression, just like buying a car and with similar expectations. The marketing materials are absolutely beautiful and dream inspiring, and the salesman and women often know little about what they are selling but are quick to try to answer ones questions with assumptions and often unsupportable representations. As Carl would say, there goes Rodger ranting again, but really, there is a reason many owners have UP-skilled themselves and many prefer to buy used, often citing their willingness to let the new owners sort out the common new coach issues. I'm sure the coach that is the subject of this thread will be a good coach once the owner gets it through its teething pains. Nothing he has mentioned would keep me from buying the coach from him used, but I suspect he would not like the price I would offer for it. Rodger S.

"This taking it back to the factory is all new to me." It's quite common, as I understand it, for the new motorhome owners, as not all of the work can be done by dealers. Very few technicians are certified in general or for specific products, which is why it is common to simply replace stuff until they get something to work, rather than troubleshoot...at least based on my experience in one RV dealership and an RV rental operation. For the few months I was there, I was the only one, as they told me, who ever trouble shooter a couple of their AC units after the experienced technicians threw up their hands and said to order more replacements. ======================== "I can't imagine doing it to someone with a $300,000 motorhome. Geese if all of their customers got bad support it wouldn't take long for them to disappear." Your thought is correct for cars, a must have vehicle for most people, vs a luxury custom hand made land yacht for the special few that have the high end coaches, new or used. Yes, a 2016 American Coach Dream is such a coach and custom hand made stuff is expensive to own and maintain. Start with the fact these are custom built units, not a true assembly line with lots of robots punching out a run of similar cars, but a custom hand made coach with a huge binder(s) of warranty information that comes with each coach. Also not well covered by lemon laws like an auto. Easy enough to research and figure out as you read these forums and posts. Experienced members like Carl will help you along. Rodger S.

When I get my RV box, I will reply to these posts while cooking outside on my BBQ and having a beer. Should smooth out the interactions a bit. Rodger S.

Based on my non-attorney reading of Florida Lemon laws, he is not gonna be happy. The house "living facilities" is where you get hurt. Many of his issues seem easily fixed anyway, whether house or chassis. My guess is that a Florida attorney will expect to be paid upfront, based on a hourly rate. Just like a divorce. When you write the first $10,000 check, have two more signed for $10,000 each in your checkbook. But heh, I agree go for it. However, each person's situation is different! I'm gonna have to rethink how many ways you can use a motorhome...traveling to visit ones attorney and visiting the mfg. Enough said. http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/85ce6e5a7210f47c85256cc9005d415e Recreation Vehicles Purchasers of new or demonstrator recreation vehicles (not van or truck conversions) should be provided with the "Consumer Guide to the Florida Lemon Law" by their selling dealer at the time of purchase. The Consumer Guide contains a section that explains Lemon Law coverage for recreation vehicles. If you did not receive a Consumer Guide when you purchased your vehicle, call the Lemon Law Hotline at 1-800-321-5366 (1-850-414-3500 if outside Florida) to request a Guide. Recreation vehicle manufacturers are also required to inform consumers how and where to file a claim with the RV Mediation/Arbitration Program. This information must be provided in writing at the time of acquisition of the recreation vehicle. Certain parts or components of recreation vehicles are NOT COVERED under Florida’s Lemon Law. These are referred to in the law as the "living facilities," which are defined as portions of the vehicle designed, used or maintained primarily as living quarters, such as the flooring, plumbing system and fixtures, roof air conditioner, furnace, generator, electrical systems other than automotive circuits, the side entrance door, exterior components and windows other than the windshield and driver and front passenger windows. This is not a complete list. The Lemon Law rights period for recreation vehicles is 24 months from the date of delivery, just like for other motor vehicles; however, other time periods are different and consumers should read the Consumer Guide for more information. IMPORTANT: Recreation vehicles are often made and assembled by more than one manufacturer, each of which may separately warrant its product. RV Consumers should receive all applicable warranties from the selling dealer at the time of purchase and these documents should be kept in a place of ready reference at all times. Repair of defective components should be sought from the service agent who is authorized to perform the repair by the manufacturer that warrants the component. Consult the warranty and/or owner’s manual of the manufacturer(s) whose component(s) are believed to be defective to find out where to take the RV for repair. Service agents that perform any examination or repair under the manufacturer’s warranty must provide the consumer with a written, legible repair order each time the vehicle is brought to the shop. Keep records of all repairs and required maintenance, and the mileage associated with warranty repairs. If the recreation vehicle has been subjected to at least three repair attempts for the same defect that is not a defective living facility component, or has been out of service for repair of one or more defects that are not defective living facility components for 15 or more days, then, written notification must be sent to each manufacturer (not the dealer) which may provide warranty coverage of the defects. If the consumer is not certain which manufacturer’s warranty covers the complaint, it is better to send the notification to all potentially responsible manufacturers. The Motor Vehicle Defect Notification form may be used for this purpose or you may send a letter. The notification must be sent by registered or express mail. Click here for the Instructions and Motor Vehicle Defect Notification form. Please refer to the section about Recreation Vehicles in the "Consumer Guide to the Florida Lemon Law" for further information about notification, manufacturer response and time requirements, as these provisions are different for recreation vehicles. Recreation vehicle consumers who wish to pursue the remedies available under Florida’s Lemon Law, are required to submit their disputes to an industry-sponsored mediation/arbitration program that has been qualified by the Department of Legal Affairs. If there is not a qualified program, or if a program’s qualification has been revoked, then, recreation vehicle consumers who wish to pursue the remedies available under Florida’s Lemon Law must submit their disputes to the Department of Legal Affairs for arbitration by the Florida New Motor Vehicle Arbitration Board. The claim must be filed with the Department of Legal Affairs within 60 days after the expiration of the Lemon Law rights period, which is 24 months from the date of delivery of the vehicle to the consumer. DO NOT DELAY! RV consumers are NOT required to submit to any other manufacturer-sponsored program. Recreation vehicle consumers wishing to pursue the remedies available under Florida’s Lemon Law should call the Department of Legal Affairs, Lemon Law Arbitration Division at 850-414-3500 for information regarding how to file a claim and to obtain a claim form.

I am very sympathetic to your situation, however: 1) Experienced owners understand that there are industry wide quality control issues that vary from minimal to extensive and for all levels of coaches including entry level, mid level, and luxury level coaches. 2) It is also well known that if one tries to trade in a recently purchased coach, the owner will take a severe hit as you are faced with. 3) I don't think that American Coach will buy it back as these coaches are not covered by lemon laws, despite some minor exceptions. Attorneys have written about this problem for buyers. 4) I don't think they will teach their workers because it is not a worker problem. Quality control engineers know that the RV industry is mfg the way the auto industry was before the Japanese forced their hand. Coaches are readily sold in this environment and buyers are lined up. They rely on dealers and owners for after the fact repairs, and some trips back to the factory. These are luxury, optional dreams, and it is assumed you can pay for it and wait for it...unlike a car. 5) Showing new buyers your pictures will make you feel better, but that is about all you will accomplish. 6) As rsbilledwards says, one answer is to buy used. My answer is to up skill myself on repair and inspection knowledge, whether I buy new or used, and I plan to buy used and do my own warranty work. 7) If you hire an attorney you are wasting your time and money...no lemon laws to assist you. On this issue I differ with Carl. My attitude is to fix it as soon as possible and get back on the road. As Carl has told me, most people just want to enjoy their coach, not waste time learning new RV technical skills. I think it follows that if you hire an attorney you will also not be enjoying your coach, but it will feel good fighting with the mfg who has their own attorneys and lots of time to drag you around while your attorney banks his fees. Rodger S.

Let it be agreed by me that good to horrible service and parts wait times, warranty disputes, and good to horrible service experiences have been experienced by owners who go to dealers with a new or extended warranty, for repairs. No, I don't plan on buying an extended warranty for myself for the used dp motorhome I will buy, despite my support for warranties. That is the result of and the benefit of up-skilling oneself in this industry to deal directly, myself, with the issues I have set forth above. And that is why I'm always encouraging owners to find a way to up-skill themselves as well, even if not to the extent I did. The logic being that the more DIY skills I have, the less likely I feel the need for a new or extended warranty for myself, or even a new MH. (As in today new, first user)