Frozen LP Tank Leaking??

[richard5933]

Noticed a strange smell around our bus today while checking on it. Finally realized it was the smell of LP.

I checked on the tanks, which I'm positive I had firmly shut off before the recent cold spell. We have two horizontal tanks. One was about 2/3 full last time I looked. When I opened the cover on the tanks, the tank which was full has a coating of frost on the end of it, with a small pile of what looks like fine snow built up under the fill valve. Pressure gauge on both tanks now reads zero.

I'm assuming that the tank which was partially full leaked out.

Is this something that can be connected in some way to the sub-zero weather or just coincidental? Can tanks leak like this because of extreme cold? If so, any precautions to be taken?

First time having LP so I'm not sure which way to go on this. I'm guessing that one of my stops once the weather warms and I'm back on the road will be to the local propane dealer to have the tanks serviced, but I sure would like to know what's going on and what to expect.

UPDATE: I did a little more looking and inspecting this evening. The fill valve is definitely the source of the leak. In fact, I was easily able to push in on the center of the fill valve and open it. I'm thinking that either the pressure was much lower than I thought and the super cold weather brought it down even further, which allowed the valve to let loose and seep, or possibly the rubber seal got too hard in the cold to continue to make a tight seal. Or, if there is a spring in the valve possibly it no longer has then necessary umph to keep the thing closed properly.

Anyone have any experience changing out the valves on these older tanks? I'm wanting to avoid changing them out totally since I don't think I'll easily find a new one that fills on the end like ours.

Edited January 3, 2018 by richard5933
Additional information added.

[dickandlois]

Richard, The fill valve is replaceable. see the frost and wonder if there is a cover missing from the current valve  ? dirt or other contamination at the vale set is always a possibility.  The tanks always need to be empty to replace any of the tank parts. The fact that the valve failed and that most of the LP has discharged.

Manchester Tanks is a good possible source for the parts, but a good LP service center should be able to test and repair the tank.

http://www.mantank.com/products/rvproducts.htm

Rich.

[manholt]

As Rich said, most of the gas has discharged, does not mean that all is gone.  As the weather warms up the liquid that is left will turn into gas vapor and be under pressure.  Yes, your missing your fill valve cover.  What you are smelling is a pungent additive ethanethiol, LPG has no odder, therefore a smell is added so you know you have a leak.

How old are your tanks and when was the last time they was serviced?  Laws have changed over the years and now, you can only use 80% off volume.  If you have a 100 gallon tank, you have to have a valve that only allows 80 gallons....actually they go by pounds, I have forgotten what a gallon of LP=in pounds!  Do not attempt to purge the tank yourself. 

I don't know what your mixture % is between Butane and Propane, that's why it's important to know, when it was last serviced.  LPG will revert back to a liquid at low temperature and then go back to gas vapor, as the temperature increase...expansion is 250:1 How low that temperature is, depends on your mix % of the 2 gasses and how well your tank is insulated.  On most Motor Homes and outside tanks, there is no insulation.  Look on the back of a TT and a lot off times you will see a cover that fits over the tank/tanks, that protects the tank and can also be fitted with insulation!

[blakeloke]

Richard,

You may have had a considerable amount of water build-up inside the tank and that's what froze and caused the valve to fail.  Then the pressure of the propane caused the water to spit out and the propane followed.  Which in turn caused local condensation at the leak (super-cold condition) thus the icing. 

You can check to see if there's any pressure on the tank through the bleed/spit valve on the top.

If the tank is small enough to remove, I would take it to a LP service center like Rich mentions and have the valve replaced and the tank recertified.

Blake 

[manholt]

I zoomed in on the gauge  and it shows a 50/50 mixture of Butane/Propane...that's a first for me.  Normal is 20/80!  Since Butane has 3x the energy of Propane.

Joe Leamont's coach had a tank that was very well insulated by the original owner, and it had a 40/60 mix...the owner lived in it in Alaska, while working.  Blake may remember that ordeal, better than me.    

[richard5933]

I'll be going to a local propane vendor today to see if they have any advice. The cover is missing in the photo because I had just taken it off for the photo. It was in place and clean prior to this issue.

The LP furnace is the only thing using propane in the coach, and it has not been used in years. I'd suspect that the LP in the tank has been there for years. I'll report back once I hear from the propane place in town.

 

[manholt]

They may have a truck and driver that will come out and certify your tanks after they purge them and change out what is needed.

Good Luck

[richard5933]

Just got back from the propane dealer in town, one that I trust.

The valve is apparently leaking. Obviously it shouldn't be. Once the weather warms to the point I can work outside for at least a few minutes (still in single digit temps here) I will pull the two tanks and take them in for repair/inspection/etc. I'll bring the regulator along with me so that it can be inspected as well. My only concern with removing them is in getting the connections made again when I reinstall so that nothing leaks. I just don't seem to have good luck re-using fittings or resealing plumbing once it's opened.  If the tanks are still deemed serviceable, I'll ask them to replace the plumbing (hoses) between the tanks and the regulator to minimize failure points.

If necessary, I will replace with something else. By the way, these tanks do have a vapor tap and based on how the plumbing is connected I'd guess were designed to be refilled in place (not removed for filling). Not sure how that worked, and not sure if it can still be done that way.

I suppose that the two horizontal tanks could be replaced with two vertical tanks if necessary. I'll have to take measurements to be sure and bring them along with me when I take the tanks in in case we go that route.

Anyone know what the proper regulator setting is for these things? My only appliance running off of propane is the furnace, so I assume that I'll need to have them set the pressure regulator for that. If they are checking we might as well check everything.

Oh - the joy of old machinery! If I didn't love it so much this would be a real pain.

[manholt]

All the ones I have had, before I got all electric, where horizontal tanks!

[richard5933]

49 minutes ago, manholt said:

All the ones I have had, before I got all electric, where horizontal tanks!

Horizontal would be my first choice since that's what's in place at the moment. Should the tanks need replacing however, I'm seeing mixed information about whether or not it will be possible to find replacements that will fit into the space where the current tanks are kept. Most of the newer tanks I'm seeing have the fill valve located midway down one of the sides. I've got two tanks, stored one above the other, with only the ends exposed to the outside. They are very similar in appearance to forklift tanks. I'll need to find new tanks with a similar setup if I have to replace them. That's the main reason for considering vertical - more options and easier to retrofit with something other than what's in there now. I'm not in the mood to reconfigure half the coach just to position new tanks somewhere else, and there is surprisingly little unused space in the bays.

[dickandlois]

Richard, I would check with Manchester. Give them a call. 

The Forklift style tanks are still in use and Manchester's RV tank list is dedicated towards the newer coaches. They very well could also have the same style tanks still in the pipeline. Not likely a mainline item at the time. Our first coach had 2- 20 lb. Horizontal tanks mounted in an outside bay.  They where setup so they could be slid out from the securing system to be filled.

Rich.

 Other suppliers that might be of help.

          https://vikingcylinders.com/products/

           https://worthingtonindustries.com/Products/Propane-Cylinders

 

Compressed Motor Fuel Tanks.pdf

[blakeloke]

Richard,

Apologies for late response.  When I first looked at your photo I thought your tank looked like an old forklift tank based on the crash handles around the fittings.  Once the sun is up here I'll go out to the garage and take a photo of the tank on my forklift and send a picture.  It sits horizontal.

I bought a spare tank for the forklift on Craigslist for $80 (if I remember right).

Blake

[kaypsmith]

Richard, have you filled the tanks since you acquired the coach, or possibly may have been quite a while since it was filled? Reason for asking, butane is / was cheaper to obtain than LP "liquid petroleum" and at one time was sold during the summer months here in the southeast. Problem with butane is that in extreme cold weather, it will freeze, and if read it will show a zero reading due to no pressure. Not saying that is your problem, but in a warmer climate if the gauge starts mysteriously showing a partial tank, then this should help solve the mystery. I had written the above statement after your first post, but did not press the submit button. I used the vertical tanks in my conversion because of the ease of removal for refilling. Also the vertical style are much less expensive than the horizontal. Pressure is about 10# on LP but the regulators are normally preset, natural gas is 4#, this is why the orifice hole is much larger for natural gas.

[manholt]

Kay.  The tank pressure gauge says 50/50 mix, so it would freeze at the temps Richard has had.  Normal for North America (Canada included) is a 20/80 mix.

[dickandlois]

Herman, Like the information ! The last sentence sounds like that of a Philadelphia lawyer. 

Rich.

 

[manholt]

 You only forgot, by running your hand from bottom towards the top of a bottle, as it's being used or just shut off, you can feel the cold, then warmth and that is how much liquid is still in bottle(if you don't have a gauge)! 

On the small green portable bottles, most users will throw them away, there is still enough liquid left to grill a steak!

[richard5933]

Thanks everyone for the information. I agree with Herman - the fill valve on the one tank is leaking and will be replaced. Can't do it right now since it's just too cold to work outside for more than a few minutes. As soon as I'm able, I'll pull both tanks along with the hoses and regulator and take the whole thing to a local propane dealer. I'll ask them to inspect and repair as necessary.

If they can't repair, then we'll start the process of replacing. I'm pretty confident that the valve's rubber seals have just gotten hard and dry over the years, and the tech at the propane dealer agreed that it could be something as simple as this. Could also be something much more involved. Won't know till he sees the tanks, of course.

Other than this issue, the tanks only show a little bit of wear and surface rust around the very outside parts of the handles. I would doubt that they've been used much and fortunately they are located in a dry bay and have not been exposed to weather. There are gauges on both tanks, and they appeared to function up to just a few weeks ago. The one tank whose gauge showed content a few weeks ago is the one that leaked, and at the moment it is showing nothing. I have a photo taken from when I first noticed the smell which showed '20' on the level. Now it shows '0'.

Regarding the markings on the gauge itself, I don't read them as indicating the actual content of the tank. There are three lines to the text:

             Propane
          50/50 Pro-Bu
              Butane

To my reading, this is information about the rating of the gauge, not the content of the tank. There are other marking & instructions on the gauge about filling, etc. I will have to confirm this when I take the tanks in for service.

That's all I got for now. I'll do my best to report back once I get the tanks in for service and have more information. Maybe others can benefit from whatever I learn.

[blakeloke]

Richard,

As promised, here's a picture of the spare propane tank for our forklift.  This is the spare one I got off of Craiglslist.

Herman.....great explanation!

Blake

[dickandlois]

Richard, the picture Blake posted.

As promised, here's a picture of the spare propane tank for our forklift.  This is the spare one I got off of Craiglslist.

Just picked noticed the label - and the tank was made by Manchester.

Rich.

 

[jleamont]

That configuration resembles the tank that was in our coach. If it gets down to it I'm certain one of the used RV salvage yards would have one.

[jleamont]

5 hours ago, hermanmullins said:

The information in this article is derived from various sources and is believed to be correct at the time of publication. However, the information may not be error free and may not be applicable in all circumstances.

Herman

[kaypsmith]

11 hours ago, richard5933 said:

             Propane
          50/50 Pro-Bu
              Butane

I was going to point this out to Carl, those descriptions are only there so you will know how to read, it does not indicate what is in the tank, only the supplier will know that answer. Or an analysis of the substance.

[wolfe10]

Yup, 11 column inches of water= .397 PSI

[richard5933]

Brief update...

I got the two tanks taken to the propane dealer today. The tech said that they are in need of updating to comply with current DOT regs (and of course repair to the leaky valve). They are still in good condition overall and will not take too much to get up to snuff so that they are safe to continue using. After the repair/upgrades they'll fill them so I can just reinstall and be done. Sounded like I'd end up with a re-cert, even though technically speaking horizontal tanks don't require such if permanently mounting according to the info I found.

Interesting mounting method used on these tanks. They each have a metal ring on the 'bottom' of the tank (as seen if stood up vertically). The compartment which holds these two tanks horizontally has cradles in it. The tanks slide into the compartment lengthwise resting in these cradles. At the back of each cradle is a round wooden disc sized perfectly to mate with the bottom of the metal base on the tanks. When they are slide in, only one bolt is necessary at the front to secure them in place. I love it when simple solutions like this work so well. I'll try and remember to take a couple of photos when I remount the tanks.

Regarding the hoses/regulator...

The propane dealer directed me to another shop in town that does LP equipment, hoses, etc. I'm going over there on Thursday to have two new hoses made up to the correct length to replace the current rubber hose and the hard copper tube. I'll also upgrade to a new 2-stage regulator.

After all this things should be good to go. Sure is nice to have local shops that can get this stuff taken care of. Milwaukee was once called "The Machine Shop to the World." Good thing enough of the old places are still around that it's quite easy to find places to work on things here.

[richard5933]

33 minutes ago, bm02tj said:

Make sure the shop making hoses can certify and tag the hoses with proper info

It sounds like you donot have permanently  installed tanks so needs to be re-certified  

You'd have to provide me with your definition of 'permanently installed' before I can really say. They were bolted in place and certainly not designed to be removed for filling. They have separate ports or filling and for the hose connection, and they appear to have never been removed since being installed. The hoses are not attached with quick-release, and the bolts were proper nut & bolt (not wing nuts). To me, they were certainly 'permanently installed' and mounted horizontal. If so, where do you see something that indicates certification being required?

I will double check with the propane dealer when I pick up the tanks in a few days.