Freightliner XC Low Def Warning

[andyshane]

It seems that this warning can also be a harbinger of an impending LOW COOLANT annunciation.

We got the LOW DEF warning as the first indication of a leaking heater hose union, in a new 2019 Freightliner XC Class A.

'Turns out, Freightliner ships to the coach builders with heater hoses capped. Newmar, Tiffin, et al then remove the caps and link their dashboard heater cores via more hose.

In the case of my Newmar, a brass union was shoved into the hose-ends and a small worm-drive hose clamp was installed on each side of the union. In tightening the forward clamp, the wall of the hose was cut, a leak developed. It took nearly 8,000 miles to work its way up to a noticeable rate, the enclosure into which the hose was laid caused fluid to drip at the engine compartment and at the front of the coach.

Owners are cautioned to find where this union is, monitor the location for leakage. I've now owned three RVs, and two have developed leaks at this location.

[wolfe10]

Interesting!

So a "low coolant" warning is displayed as a "!" above the  "low DEF" label?

SO,  is that the display for all warnings and the LOW DEF is just one of the monitored functions and perhaps a better label than "low DEF" could be used.

Does the display give any information other than "!"?

[dickandlois]

Andy!  Think the coach builders Do not, or did not receive a torque level for the hose clamp(s)? 

The fact the builders are adding a section of hose, Are they using a lower quality hose or one that can be easily cut into as the heat increases in the hose and the material becomes softer ?

Or they need to use a wider hose clamp to spread out the clamp pressure over a wider area? 

IE reducing hose quality or smaller clamps, saves a few cents; but creates an issue that cost them more to repair under the warranty period. 

Rich.

 

[jleamont]

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't that a DEF gauge just below the speedometer that reads full on the graph or is it a Soot level indicator within the Particulate filter? 

[manholt]

Joe, I think that's the Soot level, looks like the warning for regeneration is on the lower left side off RPM gauge.  I see 2 yellow engine lights also on RPM gauge!

[hermanmullins]

Andy, driving while texting is bad but so is taking a picture while going 55 MPH. 

Herman

[jleamont]

9 hours ago, manholt said:

Joe, I think that's the Soot level, looks like the warning for regeneration is on the lower left side off RPM gauge.  I see 2 yellow engine lights also on RPM gauge!

If that's the case he doesn't have a DEF tank gauge . It looks to me like it needs DEF added and a parked regen performed. When DEF drops below a certain level the system will not function, which will cause the soot levels to climb rapidly. If the soot level is at 101% no passive regen (while driving) is going to knock that down enough. Typically at 95% blockage there is damage occurring to the turbocharger from the exhaust having no way to exit and coming back up to the turbocharger. 

I have a 2017 ISL in the shop now, driver ignored the parked regen request for a few days, took out the turbocharger and broke the Catalyst (DOC) causing it to move in the housing, it moved so far it hit the temp sensor, the DPF is so clogged it cannot be cleaned and there was so much heat coming back into the intake it wiped out the fuel injectors, those are scored internally from heat. $19,000 in damage all for ignoring the engine's request for a parked regen. 

The photo below, that should be flush with the end of the metal case, it got so hot it melted the glue.

[manholt]

Joe, there was no level indicator on my Allegro Bus...I just looked in bay each time I filled up fuel and made note of level, at half mark I filled it up!  I only had structural (house) problems in the 57,000+/- miles I had coach! Powerglide chassis.

[fagnaml]

Andy --

On my Freightliner dash display, my DEF tank level indicator has the same symbol as the DEF level gage on your display i.e. "blowing exhaust cloud with waves underneath".   My DEF level gage only shows horizontal green bars for 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% full levels (not the solid 0-100% bar like yours).   My dashboard DEF tank level indicator reading is generally consistent with the level gage on the DEF tank. 

Receiving a "Low DEF" warning message while your DEF Tank Level indicator show 100% full means a miscommunication in the electronics somewhere.   A "Low DEF Warning" would have nothing to do with a coolant leak.  I wonder if somehow the low level indicator in your coolant tank was incorrectly connected to the "Low DEF" warning "light" on your dash display?

Alternatively, this short dissertation says that a yellow "DEF Low" warning light can also indicate that the DEF tank was erroneously filled with something other than DEF --> https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/is-it-safe-to-drive-with-the-def-light-on

Also, the temperature indication in your photo is the engine temperature given the  "icon" (i.e. thermometer in fluid "boat" icon) above the numerical the temperature reading.  Correct?

Let the forum know how your "DEF Low" warning message was resolved.

[andyshane]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:17 AM, jleamont said:

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't that a DEF gauge just below the speedometer that reads full on the graph or is it a Soot level indicator within the Particulate filter? 

So, here we are 10 months later, I had the same thing present en route, spontaneously. At first, the display showed these same warnings except the DEF quantity was 56%, visually verified. Then, it showed the 101% which commonly means the DEF has been topped off and all warnings will disappear once the quantity goes down to 87%. Of course, after the February experience, I always verify radiator coolant level, too. Ignoring it like the last haf-dozen times, we pressed on. Eventually, we got the dreaded red STOP ENGINE and VERY LOW DEF lights. At that point, I pulled over 8 miles short of my destination, shut down and went to investigate. Sure enough, both radiator and DEF  tanks were fine. 

Here is the sticker: I shut down.

Upon restart, my engine latched into a deep derate, and I was now capable of 5 mph. 

The good news: McElroy Trucking's main campus and driver school spread out in front of me, like a luxurious Kentucky equine estate with immaculate red trucks instead of horses.

I called Freightliner and all of the local truckstops. No one could come do a computer reset. One suggested disconnecting the battery for 20 minutes. The Freightliner help desk said there is a bootleg method: turn the ignition key to ON for two hours. I tried both to no avail.

Thinking it'd be a nice courtesy to alert folks at the trucking company I was there, I tried to gain entry. All doors were locked. I called, the phone picked up immediately. A foreman greeted me, said they saw me enter and that I was free to park as long as I needed. Later, he came out to check on us. When I told him about the DEF, he rolled his eyes and said that was his Freightliner superpower. Indeed, at one time, the company owned 400 Freightliners but had since weaned themselves from the brand, with 700 trucks presently, most International.  He gave me a number to call, Empire Truck Services of Meridian. 

He even looked into rummaging around in his parts room for a head that would fit. They were all the wrong part number. 

Checking back in with Freightliner -- I'm becoming a big fan of these folks -- the operator said not to bother mobile service folks any longer. "You've done what you can, and them coming out will just be a waste of money."

He suggested calling the nearest dealer, Empire Truck Services. I did, and they immediately ordered a new DEF head, having found one in Atlanta, another in Amarillo. With all of the failures I'm hearing about, the notion that only two could be located in stock is alarming. They offered to overnight it with a Tuesday morning arrival, I agreed.

When I called to report this to Freightliner, I asked if they'd like to set up the wrecker. They did; and, a few minutes ago, after a flawless 20-mile tow, the driver was instructed to visit with the Empire office to take care of the bill. This Freightliner dealer in Meridian, Mississippi is a huge, new facility. Very impressive. I arrived by wrecker at noon, at 2PM the DEF tank is being lowered from the chassis.

I'll post updates as they develop.

 

[8PM Update: We did a good leak check, the computer triggered a regeneration cycle, said by techs to span as long as 1 1/2 hours. Sure enough, at five minutes short of that time, the 1,100 rpm regeneration suddenly dropped 300 rpm, signaling completion. But, an attempt to clear the codes was unsuccessful. The laptop demanded a software update, and by then Cummins was closed. For the first time in our 10-year RV career, we found a hotel room. Let's see what the morning brings.]

Edited October 28, 2020 by andyshane

[manholt]

Thank you for the information Andy!  Always a pleasure to hear from you! 

If you should have any more problems and your at home, they have very good tech's at NIRV in Lewiston, TX.  Mine is there now and most of the items that Linda had on her wish list, is done and we'll pick up the coach Friday.  Then hopefully, Newmar will have the parts we need for a new bathroom celling in stock...back ordered for 3 to 5 weeks!!! Internal, not external, so we can use it.  

[andyshane]

Thanks!

 The mysterious 101% quantity guage reversion whenever the DEF is conjuring up false alarms might be helpful to those who haven't yet experienced trouble.

 One gem gleaned from an attendee of Camp Freightliner is, use the gauge to deplete DEF before replenishing. Apparently, the fluid gets old and can degrade system performance. By using it up prior to refilling, it stays fresh(er).





[We had an uneventful leg from Mississippi  back to Texas.  Gassed up alongside a beautiful Tiffin at Buc-ee's east of Dallas and asked if he was rocking a Freightliner, just to share what'd I'd learned. 'Turns out, he had a Powerglide chassis, two minutes into our conversation it came out that he was a fellow KC-135A pilot in my squadron at Carswell, 30 years ago...  Small world.]