Turbo Failure on Caterpillar Engine

[charlesholman@comcast.net]

We just bought a 2008 Beaver Contessa with a 425 Caterpillar engine. The coach had 19,000 miles and 580 hours on the engine. After 2 months, we lost our turbo. Of course, Cat's position is "not their problem, coach out of warranty." Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? Thanks

[wolfe10]

Charles,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum.

Turbo failure is rare. But were we to start pointing fingers, it sounds like this coach has SAT for most of its life-- 6+ years and only 19,000 miles may mean it has sat for long periods of time. Particularly, if the previous owner did not know how to treat the mechanicals, turbo failure can happen.

Things that will lead to premature turbo failure:

Inadequate warm up time before really getting into the throttle/turbo. Said another way, before the turbo has adequate oil flow.

Inadequate cool down time before shutting down after a hard pull. This will lead to "cooking/coking" of the oil in the turbo and therefore poor lubrication.

Sitting for long periods of time allows oil to drain from bearings. Worse, if previous owner started it and just let it idle while stored. Idling a diesel leads to a lot of moisture in the exhaust and crankcase-- unless driven a minimum of 25 highway miles, DO NOT START A DIESEL. All you will do is add moisture to the engine.

[elkhartjim]

All excellent points, Brett. Tell me if I'm doing the right thing during shutdown please. My normal low operating temperature is 189 degrees but will usually run at 190-192 under normal conditions. I always idle after driving until I reach the 189 mark and then shut down. Sometimes it only takes a minute to drop to this temp and some times it may take 3 minutes. My question, am I shutting down too quickly at the one minute mark?

325 Cummins ISB.

ON edit: I didn't intend to hijack the thread.

[wolfe10]

Jim,

No problem-- improper shut down is a prime cause of turbo failure. While turbo temperature is somewhat related to coolant temperature, they are not directly related. Case in point: Pulling a long, steep grade in the winter may not raise coolant temperature, but will still raise turbo/exhaust temperature. So, if pulling a long grade, even if coolant is at thermostatic temperature, you should let the engine idle for 3 minutes or so to cool the turbo.

If you have a boost gauge, you will KNOW when you are out of turbo/little or no boost. A couple of minutes at low/no boost, even if still being driven (i.e. slow city streets, CG's etc) will allow sufficient turbo cool down. Clearly, if you pull into a CG, check in and then pull to your site, you are good for an immediate shut down.

[elkhartjim]

I have three pieces of of information on the LBCU display.

Water Temp

Transmission Temp

Boost

I had not considered your point of driving in colder/cooler ambient temp effecting the coolant temp and not the turbo temp.

Three minute idle time from now on I think. I've always been concerned with "excessive" idling.

Thanks for the information.

[wolfe10]

I agree, the majority of diesel owners idle TOO LONG, both on start up and on shut down. A little common sense goes a long ways.

If the engine is cold, and you are parked at a freeway entrance, you DO need to idle (high idle) it longer than if you have 2 miles of slow driving from the CG to reach the highway.

Same on shut down-- if you just pulled into a "scenic vista" at the top of a long grade, you do need to allow for more cool down time than if you have driven 2 miles at low speed to get to the CG.

[elkhartjim]

We had a Country Coach next to us idle for 33 minutes and that was only after I started timing him. It was probably close to 45 minutes before he slowly drove a half mile to the campground exit.

The thought just occurred to me...how many owners perform perfect maintenance and then do harmful things like this? I guess it wouldn't matter if the oil and filters were changed two or three times a year if you abuse the engine this way.

[wolfe10]

Yup, both maintenance and operation are important to any mechanical device!

[huffypuff]

A better way to keep an eye on you turbo is add a pyrometer to watch the EGT. Then you will know for sure when to shut the engine down as you can watch the exhaust gas temperature drop. Also you know when to let up on it if the temperature goes too high.

[dickandlois]

Jim and Brett,

The issue of turbo temperature and how much time to allow for cool down is also an issue with many of the newer cars that use them to improve performance and increase mileage with decreased displacement.

There have been incidents of turbo failure because the owners are not aware of the problem and in many cases there is no information regarding cool down in the owners manuals.


Rich.

[wildebill308]

Charles welcome to the forum. Get your engine serial number and find out the part number for your turbo. You may be able to find one online cheaper than from Cat. there are places who rebuild turbos so you might check on that to if yours is rebuildable.

"A better way to keep an eye on you turbo is add a pyrometer to watch the EGT."

I agree completely. There are other times when coolant temperature doesn't tell the whole story. On my travels this summer I had a couple of places where my coach was pulling in 6th on cruise control and hadn't shifted down but I got a warning of high EGT. We were pulling a long grade that wasn't much but it maxed boost and drove EGT temps way up as it tried to maintain speed in 6th. I slowed down a little and dropped into 4th to bring up rpm reduce the load and drop the temperatures.

Bill

[wolfe10]

Bill,

Is your engine stock? Unusual to run dangerously high EGT's with a stock engine. Chipped or tweaked-- that is a different matter.

BTW, what EGT's were you seeing? Pre turbo?

[huffypuff]

Rich on many of the new cars it is programmed in the computer to watch the exhaust temperature and will only shut down when it cools. The car may idle a couple of minutes after the driver exit the car and may indicate why on the dash.

[wildebill308]

What do you consider high EGT temperatures? I was seeing up to 1350 pre turbo. I don't like to run that hot and have it set up to warn me and it is supposed to derate. I have never let it run at those temps long enough to see if it does.

I am running the Banks Economind Diesel tuner. I seldom run it above the economy setting that is stage 2. I have run in stage 1 which is the basic stock setting to get a base line on EGT temps and boost. I don't see any big increase in EGT unless I run it in stage 6. You should expect to see higher EGT temps as you are adding fuel to get more power. The Cummins engineers that I talked to in Perry this last spring would not state what the max EGT should be. They said the computer on the 5.9 common rail would derate before damage was done. I have talked to mechanics at the local Cummins dealer and they said 1400 for short times when towing on hills. I think that is a little warm for me so I use 1300 as upper limit/warning temp.

I have seen high EGT with the tuner set to stock settings when climbing hills.

People who don't have gages are running a risk of having high temperatures and not knowing it.

Bill

[DaveAtherton]

Charlesholman turbo failure, you said Engine was a 425 Cat but not model, I can bet we are talkin about a Cat C-9 with

exhaust setup with re-gen. You are having problems with re-gen to work in the auto mode and now will not regen in manual

mode either. At Cat dealer you were told that turbo needs to be changed out because oil on face of intake of the DPF

filter.At 19,000 miles would suspect this is where the story is going. If this is correct, I can assist you in direction to take.

Brett will agree durning Diesel Club pre rally at Madison. Ken carpenter, Brett and myself all involved in assisting on this problem

that involved 5 Cat dealers.looking at Cat-9 engine that failed to re-gen. Between the three of us there was a happy ending and

party returned back to Ohio with no additional problems. The more information a person can provide would be very useful

In assisting you. Dave Atherton Retired Cat mechanic

[manholt]

Charles. Welcome to the Forum!

I think you'll find that your chassis and engine is a 2006. In 07' there was 2 Beaver Contessa ( new model) on the line to be built as a 07' model, when Safari who owned Beaver, went and filed for Bankruptcy. Pre liquidation of Beaver, the few people that was left, decided to finish building the 2 Beavers on line and sell them as 08's. At the time of liquidation of Beaver and Safari in 09', both Contessas could not be found and presumed that they where sold!

You have one off the two Contessas ever built by Beaver! Congratulation!!!

The only place that I know off that you might get parts is CCC ( Country Coach Connection) in Junction City, Oregon.

Carl

[wildebill308]

Dave, Carl that post is a year old. My last post was on 23 September 2014 - 09:50 AM.

Bill

[manholt]

OH Well, I should have sent the info to Charles direct.

[DaveAtherton]

Thanks Bill, nobody really did ever explained how the posting go. Assume with orange flag along posting one would

Think it is a current post. Where are the current post located. Thanks Dave

[wildebill308]

Thanks Bill, nobody really did ever explained how the posting go. Assume with orange flag along posting one would

Think it is a current post. Where are the current post located. Thanks Dave

You can always check the date of the post. Most of the newer post are toward the top of the forum while older post tend to drop down and finally off the top page.

Bill

[F388216]

We just bought a 2008 Beaver Contessa with a 425 Caterpillar engine. The coach had 19,000 miles and 580 hours on the engine. After 2 months, we lost our turbo. Of course, Cat's position is "not their problem, coach out of warranty." Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? Thanks

I know that this is a very old post, but one point I would make is that as far as I know (as an owner of a 2008/9 Contessa) C9 Cats were 400 HP until just prior to Monaco shutting down in 2009. Only thru that late production period did the Cat supposedly have 425 hp, achieved by computer tuning I was told. Mine was sold as a 400 hp, does not require DEF.

Our coach has 40K and never had an engine/turbo issue. I have always followed the warm up and cool down suggestions posted on this thread, and hope that keeps my engine, and me, happy!

Any comments by experts would be appreciated.

[wolfe10]

F388216,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum.

Nothing really special about maintenance on the C9. Like any modern diesel, clean fuel and oil and air and proper coolant. But, lots of ancillary things on a DP that need Preventive Maintenance such as hydraulic systems, air dryers, etc.

More in-depth info here on the Diesel RV Club (an FMCA Chapter) Technical Website: http://forum.dieselrvclub.org/index.php?action=forum

[pollackfamily]

Original owner of a 2009 Beaver Rome IV with a Cat C9 with 22,000.  At 4.5 years Cat replaced Turbo and DPF under warrantee and re-engineered the DPF using one from a C13.  Just had another Turbo failure, Cat South Carolina replaced that and needs to clean the DPF, hopefully that is fine...  This will be my cost and wondering if I should make a big deal of that with Cat. 

Regardless, wondering if it's our engine or lack of procedure for stops and starts.  So it would be helpful if I can get a simple direction on starts/stops.  i.e. thinking when RV is sitting start 5-minutes, 20-minutes high idle, 5-minutes low idle then shut, monthly.  

For driving runs, 5-minutes warm up before going and 5-minutes cool down after the run, regardless of short or long run.  Delighted if someone knowledgeable advises on the fear of continuing with this RV and/or start/stop procedure please.  Thanks!

[manholt]

Pollack.  Welcome to the Forum & Merry Christmas!

Does your engine have a C9s designation?  Where is your Beaver sitting, campground, in a Garage, outside in snow or warm part of country?  You can ask CAT to help with cost.  Problem is that your engine is a 2006, CAT stopped making engine's for the RV industries due to the 2007 mandate.  Beaver went belly up in 2007!  Your 2009 Roam is a 2006!

If you can't drive it for a minimum of 25 miles, DON'T START THE ENGINE...not driving does not lubricate anything and leads to moisture in crankcase!  I suggest you read this entire Post fro m the begging (scroll to top of page) to this point.

[wildebill308]

1 hour ago, pollackfamily said:

Original owner of a 2009 Beaver Rome IV with a Cat C9 with 22,000.  At 4.5 years Cat replaced Turbo and DPF under warrantee and re-engineered the DPF using one from a C13.  Just had another Turbo failure, Cat South Carolina replaced that and needs to clean the DPF, hopefully that is fine...  This will be my cost and wondering if I should make a big deal of that with Cat. 

Regardless, wondering if it's our engine or lack of procedure for stops and starts.  So it would be helpful if I can get a simple direction on starts/stops.  i.e. thinking when RV is sitting start 5-minutes, 20-minutes high idle, 5-minutes low idle then shut, monthly.  

For driving runs, 5-minutes warm up before going and 5-minutes cool down after the run, regardless of short or long run.  Delighted if someone knowledgeable advises on the fear of continuing with this RV and/or start/stop procedure please.  Thanks!

Welcome to the forum and Merry Christmas.

I would try to get Cat to pay for the turbo, can't hurt as they had a lot of problems with the last engines before they pulled out of the over the road market. Also read what I posted earlier about finding a rebuilt turbo on the web.

I like having a EGT gage so you can tell exactly what is happening temperature wise with the turbo. You can read what I posted earlier.

When you start your engine once oil pressure comes up go to fast idle. this will insure complete combustion of the fuel and prevent unburned fuel from washing down your cylinder walls and contaminating your oil. 

Speaking of oil I am running Shell Rotella T-6 5-40 Full synthetic oil. It gives more protection to the engine and turbo.

If you have questions feel free to ask