Journalist Responds To Gerber's RV Death Spiral Series

[RodgerS]

The revolt continues...with this followup article by a 2nd journalist, they are trying to get the word out to new owners. 

http://rvdailyreport.com/industry/rvia-award-winning-journalist-tackles-death-spiral/

“From my personal experience and from reading the various online forums geared to RV users, it seems that initial product quality, sometimes long lead times for parts and the availability of timely service have become problems for the RV owner and have taken the word “recreation” out of recreational vehicle,” he added. “These days, you’re hard pressed to find a public forum or online user group that is not filled with user complaints.

“It’s my understanding the RVIA, the industry association that honored me nearly two decades ago, is the group that sets and enforces quality standards. In the opinion of this potential Class A motorhome purchaser, it appears the RVIA’s self imposed quality standards are simply missing the mark.

“Maybe this is an over-simplification from my point of view, but from what I’ve learned through my personal research experiences, it appears this organization’s responsibilities are to simply to promote and protect its own industry and is operating with a basic two-fold mission:

1. To glorify the RV lifestyle in order to get new customers into its dealer’s showrooms.
2. To encourage politicians from enacting regulations such as HUD building standards or Lemon Laws that could cripple its current business model.

Rodger S. 

[rossboyer]

But all that said, we need to have much, much better quality for the $100's of thousands that we pay for even an entry level Class A motorhome.  The auto manufactures did it due to foreign competition.  I guess we will have to wait for China and Japan to make Quality Motorhomes.

[RodgerS]

rossboyer

Pargh's article made the point that at the price point the industry is targeting, that is what the industry is capable of producing as to quality. In Gerber's articles he talked about all the shortcuts the mfgs are using to cut corners to stay within their target price points. One either accepts that as "fact" or rejects that as "false." 

1) I think the basic fallacy we are dealing with is comparing the design, production, and parts of a MH to a car...no they are not comparable. This is the basic problem the industry faces. Their only answer has been more PDI's, glorifying the lifestyle, and diverting consumers with bling and beautiful interiors. (Experienced owners have their own answers)

2) Many owners complain about the worker's dedication on the production line...I believe that is fallacious thinking as well. 

The industry will fall on its face if a significant number of new buyers realize that their expectations are (just simply) false. That enjoying the lifestyle often requires much much more in $$$, time, and knowledge.

Trust is earned and once destroyed is not easily recovered. That is why these public outings of the industry are potentially so harmful, regardless of the reasonings, the arguments, or argued lack of 100% accuracy. 

Rodger S. 

 

 

 

 

[RodgerS]

Another diversion is this new concept of Blue Shield Certified Pre-Owned Program for used RVs.

IMO: This is just another way to obfuscate the fact that new doesn't equal a relatively problem free RV. 

And, for example, there is no way they are going to be able to address the issue of existing water damage and you can

bet it will not be on the inspection list or guarantee. 

http://rvdailyreport.com/industry/blue-shield-pre-owned-more-than-a-simple-pdi/

Rodger S. 

[manholt]

Rodger. I agree that there are issues within the RV Industry that can be improved upon.   I believe about 25% of most things I read, and less of what I hear!  You have the equivalent of the rvdaily report in just about every Industry out there.   "Award winning journalist", say's so and so!  Does he/she own their RV, power boat, sail boat and high end car?  I don't think so...they base a truth upon Forums and complaints!

I would venture to say that most RV's would never give you any more of a problem, than a well built house, if they just sat there hooked up and didn't move down a road.  Moving down the road, is where the fun happens...first time buyers are not thinking about all the maintenance that is involved in keeping the RV rolling and them happy!  Also, don't complain about items that the Manufacturer of the RV have no control over!  It's not their leveling jacks, appliances, AC or heating units, wheels or tires, locks and hinges, battery's, chassis or engines, on and on!

RVIA has been around for a very long time!   Before that the RV industry was bedlam and there was no control over anything.  There would not be millions of RV owners out there, that are second time plus owners, if the RV manufacturers where as bad, as the people who complain, say they are!  I'm on my 17th and I'm not Stupid!

My 2 cents worth and please, don't take anything out of context.

[BennieH]

The industry is it's own worst enemy along with the customers. They all talk quality and innovation, but similar to the way the automakers were, they force all their suppliers to cut the cost of every component. Why? Because the consumer expects to get a product with all the features at the lowest possible price.

I was taught that in business there are 3 things you can deliver, Cost, Quality and Customer Service. Pick which 2 you wish to deliver as all 3 cannot exist at the same time. My last employer was a Quality & Customer Service focused company. We were not the cheapest, but in the 18 years I was there, we never had a down time financially.

I for one will look at the quality of a product before I spend my money. Probably one of the reasons I don't go to a number of big box retailers. I am surprised at how sloppy even some of the top name RV's look when we go to the shows. My 13 yr old coach has a better fit and finish still! 

I would bet that if a builder went for quality and pushed their suppliers to do the same they would succeed.

[RodgerS]

I think Gerber's target readers are new to the lifestyle, working families, buying entry-level units, taking a couple weeks, more or less, of a vacation every year. If Gerber is correct, for those target readers, enjoying the lifestyle is getting harder for those wishing to enter it, and it will get worse.

I believe the articles become less relevant/accurate from an experienced owners point of view as experienced owners seem to think and behave differently, and have work-arounds....like buying used, improving their diy skills, actively maintaining the RV, traveling off season and understanding the seasonal traffic. 

However, even experienced owners buy new, but they, being aware of the industry, try to buy as high end on the scale as they can afford. 

Note: 1 when I was in Santa Barbara, I was looking at a 2016 Newmar Ventana.  The older salesman said he was surprised I was looking at it. I had told him I had not owned a MH before and he said the premium units he had sold were usually sold to previous MH owners. 

Note: 2 None of this prevents me from buying my MH. But, I have already put in place and considered a whole host of workarounds, in addition to the above, that I need not go into.

All that said, placing $150,000 of cash on the table will not be easy because there are other equally desirable choices to owning a MH, doing all the inspections, setup and upkeep, and buying a towable.

Rodger S. 

 

 

 

 

[jleamont]

Bennie, you said a mouthful! I always buy the product with the better quality, even at a higher cost. Not that I'm wealthy but I have watched others replace the cheap product a few times that didn't work as well the entire time while I am still on the original purchase, in the end they have spent hours replacing, sourcing and in the end spent more than I did not counting if you factor in that time is money. DW and I talk about this often

I am a once and done kind of guy, do it right the first time and walk away with a clear head.

[aztec7fan]

I have one idea that I think is a good one, but will never happen.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, the manufactures would let an FMCA member use a new coach for a few days, then the member would do a write up of that coach.

Now, I know the magazine has write ups of new coaches now, but these are gloryfied advertising, with no negatives.  If the write ups were allowed to have negative, as well as positive feedback, maybe this might make a small step to higher quality.

Probably never happen.

 

Chris g.

F3508s

[manholt]

Chris.  I remember those years and the 80's....then I guess we ( FMCA, Kings Highway, RV Life ) became PC with no negative reporting allowed !  In defense of FMCA, they where the last to print a "we suggest, so and so, would be recommended".

[timjet]

Everyone complains about the quality of new units, but sales are through the roof. Why? Perhaps because nobody can produce a quality RV at the price point that attracts many buyers. I suspect the industry is just responding to what the buyer wants and can afford.

Every manufacturer has to compete to get the buyers attention. Even the mid-level manufactures. Bling sells and they know that. Quality only comes into play after the unit has sold.

So if you are a recently retired baby boomer, new to RVing and see the price difference of an entry level DP and a mid-level DP at $100,000, it’s easy to see why these entry level units sell and then when the problems arise, why the industry has such a quality perception problem.

Bottom line, it may just not be possible to produce a coach at the price point many are selling for and expect to not have problems.

Fix 1: Up the quality and up the price, but then you have a mid-level coach and have out priced many buyers. Currently quality is still a problem here but the manufactures seem more attentive to fixing them.

Fix 2: Reduce the bling, up the quality and stay at a price point that will still attract new buyers.

With the stiff competition, buyers opting for bling over quality and easy sales, I don't see anything happening soon.

 

 

 

 

 

[manholt]

You got my vote!  Sad but true...

Carl

[RodgerS]

Problem: can you, the mfg, build a quality, custom, hand made entry level unit for a "new to the industry" customer who usually buys mass produced products? Apparently not. But you can build something else.

Does that customer usually know that the process they used to buy their car is insufficient for buying a motorhome and that what they are buying was not built the same way their car was? Apparently not, but you can have the salesman treat the customer as if they were buying a car. 

When a customer comes on an RV website why do some owners emphasize focusing on floor plan, as if quality or keeping it on the road are not critical issues??? Maybe new owners just have to pay their dues the hard way if you want to join the team.

Does that customer usually buy a $100 bottle of wine at the winery or a $10 bottle of wine off the shelf? When that customer buys, how sophisticated is his research and ability to ferret out the deeper issues? Mostly they just want to get out of town and have a good time.

So you build what you can as fast as you can to be sold to customers who buy based on first impressions. The living quarters are not covered by lemon laws so the mfg keeps changing the models, selling a glorified dream, and letting the repair bay take the complaints.

Does it matter...no, not as long as the sales are holding up. And you can trade it in and buy up!

===================================

Entry level blues, entry level dues. 

What really amazes me is that some experienced owners buy new with an entry level mindset, expecting less problems having paid more money.

Rodger S. 

 

[jleamont]

this video is great....

 

[RodgerS]

I agree, I have seen that video.

But he's irrelevant because his video is not reaching the new buyers. My guess is the Gerber's articles won't either.

An Entry level mentality, when buying new at $100k or $400k is a function of...

Rodger

[manholt]

Both of you...

[jleamont]

I will say this, with the depreciation side of it and problems you will have either way I wouldn't purchase new if it were me. To each his own, some like to be the first to sit on a seat and I get that. I would insist on a warranty history report depending on how new it was of a unit. That would be my second area of inspection after the basics, just goes back to me not trusting the person or person's that made those repairs previously. Unless I hit the lottery tomorrow and order a custom coach nothing new in my future, I just don't see any benefit unless I cannot locate what I want, which is possible when that time comes, most likely I would just sit back and wait like the last purchase since I wasn't in a hurry and time was on my side.

[RodgerS]

"I would insist on a warranty history report depending on how new it was of a unit." Yes, that is not often mentioned, but is on my list as well. Same as doing a Carfax check, talking with their mechanic, and possibly getting a printed readout or copy of invoices or at least a look through of them from the mechanic on past services. One doesn't have to limit themselves to owner's representation and owner's documents...and they should be willing to let you talk to those that have helped them in the past. 

"most likely I would just sit back and wait like the last purchase since I wasn't in a hurry and time was on my side." There are also plenty of activities you don't need a MH for. $40k, $100k, $150k, $200k can buy a lot of choices. 

Rodger S. 

[five]

There is a short article on RV sales on page 43 of the August issue of the FMCA magazine, entitled "RV Shipments Continue Upward Trend."  Briefly, it states 2016 will show an increase of 6% over 2015.  That 6% equates to 396,400 units, with the forecast for 2017 at 404,800 units.  This will be eight straight years of growth.  MH units will be 50,900 and 52,500 for 2016 and 2017 respectively.  Those numbers equal 13% of all sales for MHs...the best performance in a decade.

[manholt]

FIVE...I'm a little confused here...what does the other 87% represent?

[RodgerS]

Per RVIA.org  "Today a record 9 million RVs are on the roads...the steady gain in ownership reflects a strong and enduring appeal of the lifestyle."

per Gerber "So, there were 9 million RV owning households in 1997, and 9 million in 2011 and 9 million today. This despite the fact that, using RVIAs own shipment numbers, there were 5.7 million new RVs built between1997 and 2015."

So, my question is despite the performance of the industry, what is going on? Gerber provided his opinion, so what is wrong with the stats?

Gerber provided a lot of potential explanations about a whole set of issues, but seems like the industry does the same thing the reviews and websites do...highlight their good points and obscure the issues. 

For example, touting quality is meaningless unless you can differentiate the difference between quality of amenities, quality of build, and quality of warranty support. 

Gerber has provided a compilation of his eight articles into one pdf files. I'm slowly reading through all the responses to date. 

I'm happy to read that other people are getting the idea into their head of asking the dealers about these issues. 

As I guessed, all four contacts I had at different dealerships stopped emailing me after I sent them my request to include a lemon law buy back paragraph in my purchase contract. 

Rodger S. 

 

 

[RodgerS]

Here are comments from Byron Songer

July 25, 2016 at 6:31 pm

"There is a lot of attrition going on so for every one (RV) that exits (ages out) another comes along. There is no real growth. The are storage lots with 25% of the units being vacated (except for the rodents). They just sit unused."

"Now, regarding delivery issue, be at a dealership when the drivers arrive and wait for a dealership inspection — a good argument will start. Then comes the documentation signing time — more arguing. Why the arguing? The driver says: “It left the factory that way.” The factory, in a phone call, says: “No it didn’t.” The dealership says: “We aren’t taking delivery until you agree to pay for the repair.” And it goes on.

"the prevalent attitude among manufacturers seems to be “slap it together and get it on the road, we’ll deal with the issues later.” No wonder the wise person will buy used and let the new owner deal with the headaches."

[manholt]

I don't believe there are 9 million RV's on the road...owned, yes.  X% are on hunting camps, fishing camps, off the grid home sites, non running, mobil home parks and kept all year at a RV park some where!  X% off trailers and fifth wheels are owned by construction company's for their workers to haul around.  Then you have trade in's, just sitting on lot's some where, or junk yards.  Original owner still on title.  So, on road, probably 40% off the 9 million. 

[fagnaml]

I'll add my two cents worth of comments.   Purchasing an RV is analogous to purchasing an automobile.  If all that a person can afford in a Ford Focus, then that person accepts the size and quality of a Ford Focus.  If a person can afford to purchase a BMW 750, then that person is demanding of the size and quality expected of a high-end vehicle.  

My entry into motorhome ownership a year ago was driven by the need to have a bigger size "toy" for my family to enjoy on weekend outings (especially LSU football weekends!) as my 2011 32 foot travel trailer couldn't accommodate my grown children and the ever increasing number of grandchildren.   My finances could afford a motorhome in the $80,000 range so I knew I would be shopping the used motorhome market.  After several months of looking I discovered a very good condition, very low mileage 2007 Damon Astoria 38 foot motorhome (Damon has since merged into the Thor family).  Is the Damon well built?  In my opinion yes. Does it have the ceramic tile floors, granite countertops, residential size refrigerator, fancy ceiling lights?  The answer is no.  Do I need those amenities for my family or does my family care if I have them no?   Is the motorhome a significant step up from my old travel trailer in both size and quality?  Absolutely yes!

Bottom line, lower price vehicles, be they a car or motorhome, will have less amenities and will probably have less quality craftsmanship compared to expensive luxury vehicles.

[manholt]

Mike.  You picked one of the better entry level DP's.  Your right about bells and whistles, that don't make a good coach or RV in general.  Kind of like a crawfish boil, do they taste better on a dish or thrown on the long board table, covered in paper?  If there is one thing I learned from my Kaplan, LA. friends...Quality first, glitz?  What's that?

Your 07' was the last good year prior to the big bank blow out in 08'...nothings been the same quality since!  I'm currently on # 17 Class A coach in 48 years and I traded an 11' Allegro Bus in Nov. of 13' for the 10' I have now!

Carl