Auxiliary Start Rocker Switch

[F442378]

I have a 2006 Fleetwood Expedition with a Xantrex Freedom Inverter/charger.  Batteries are less than two years old.

Nothing happens when I push the Aux battery rocker switch on to assist start when mains are weak (I'll start another topic later to address the constantly weak main battery situation).

Is this a major problem or do I just need to trace out some wiring with a volt meter or tracer…?  Is there a web site to use for wiring diagrams for motor homes?

Harvey

 

[wolfe10]

Harvey,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum.

Could be a minor problem. The auxiliary start switch (aka battery combine switch) activates a solenoid that joins the chassis battery bank with the house battery bank.
 

If the switch that enables the combining is supplied by the chassis battery and voltage is very low, it may not be enough to close the solenoid.

So, locate the solenoid.

With a digital voltmeter, check voltage on both large lugs (one large lug to chassis bank, one to house bank).  What do you get?

There will be either one or two small terminals/wires to the solenoid.  If two, one is ground, the other comes from the swtich.  If one, it comes from the switch and the solenoid body serves as ground.

Have someone activate, hold down the switch and measure voltage at the signal/positive small terminal. What do you get?

If you suspect low voltage at the signal terminal is the culprit, use a short jumper wire (doesn't need to be large-gauge-- will only be handling a small amount of current).  Remove the positive wire from switch at solenoid.  Jump from the large lug with higher voltage to the signal terminal.  The solenoid should "click" and battery voltage on both large lugs should now be the same/close to the same.

Let us know what you find.

 

[F442378]

I am impressed by the immediate response.  Thank you Brett. Violet (wife) and I are beginning to enjoy the pleasures of travel in our motor home.  Violet is retired and I am beginning to move in that direction after 30 years as founders of our marketing company. 

 

I am motivated to learn the nuances of this machine.  May I ask a few questions and orientate myself.  I assume the solenoid is located near the battery compartments at rear of bus.  I have a “tracer” that will tone a wire and allow me to find the other end, I think.  This should help find the solenoid.

I assume the large lugs are the connector “terminals” on the solenoid, one leading to the batteries for the chassis bank (main or starter batteries-I have two of these batteries together in one compartment) and the other lug leads to the house bank, the other adjacent compartment with four batteries that supply the lights, fans, air conditioners and other coach needs…)

I assume I will use the digital voltage meter to measure from ground to each of the large lugs individually.  This appears to be the measure of the battery banks strength.  Is this the same as measuring across the positive and negative terminals of the batteries?

So, I think I should read about 12 to 13 volts from each bank.  If so, the next step is the small jumper wire from the aux switch.  I assume that if it is working properly, when I engage the aux switch, I should see a strong 12 volts.  My curious mind tells me that if both banks of batteries are fully charged to 12 volts and I jump them with the aux switch, I have simply made a big 12 volt gang of batteries and this doesn’t sound correct to me…that is, if the chassis bank is weak and the house bank is strong, then the jumper wire would transfer the house bank to the chassis bank and start the engine….   I’ll have to study the jumper wire technique that actuates the solenoid IF there is a low reading that prevents the chassis battery from actuating the solenoid.  Am I close to understanding this?

Hope I’m not rambling around and misunderstanding the directions.  Are you able to attach a drawing of the aux switch, solenoid and battery banks?

I will remove the aux switch cover by the drivers side panel and see what the wire arrangement looks like (one or two wires).  This will be a fun adventure.  Harvey

[kaypsmith]

A fully charged no load bank while on charger should read 13.2 to 13.8 volts. A fully charged battery bank at rest (no charging or discharging for several hours) should read around 12.8 volts. 

If both banks read this then you should be able to see very close to the same on both lugs of the solenoid. You should use a continuity checker, aka an ohm meter to make sure that the solenoid is open when the rocker switch is open, have someone push the rocker switch while you are still  check continuity, if it shows a dead short at this time the solenoid is working, Of course if both battery bank reads a high reading the coach should be cranking without having to use the assist. All this item does is to combine both chassis and house batteries for emergency purposes such as the power plant doesn't start, and or sometimes the generator is started by the house batteries (not always the case) according to who and how the manufacturer chose to wire your particular unit. If you have the manual for your unit you should be able to find drawings there, if you don't have a manual I would suggest acquiring one as no two brands are wired the same, and sometimes that is not true with the same coach year. One other note is that if there is one or more dead cells in either bank, that will pull enough current away from the system to prevent starting from happening.

[wolfe10]

9 hours ago, F442378 said:

So, I think I should read about 12 to 13 volts from each bank.  If so, the next step is the small jumper wire from the aux switch.  I assume that if it is working properly, when I engage the aux switch, I should see a strong 12 volts.  My curious mind tells me that if both banks of batteries are fully charged to 12 volts and I jump them with the aux switch, I have simply made a big 12 volt gang of batteries and this doesn’t sound correct to me…that is, if the chassis bank is weak and the house bank is strong, then the jumper wire would transfer the house bank to the chassis bank and start the engine….   I’ll have to study the jumper wire technique that actuates the solenoid IF there is a low reading that prevents the chassis battery from actuating the solenoid.  Am I close to understanding this?

 Harvey

 

 

 Harvey,

A little clarification.  Indeed, if both battery banks are fully charged, no need for the boost/combine feature as a fully charged chassis battery bank should start the coach.

But if the chassis battery is discharged, you will see low voltage reading on the lug going to that bank. And, the other lug going to the house bank will be higher-- maybe even a full volt higher.

With the combine feature (switch activating the solenoid) the battery bank with higher voltage (virtually always the house battery bank) will send power to the other battery. So instead of a very different voltage reading on the two lugs, they will "average" and be the same.  This shows that the system is working.

The reason for the jumper wire test is that if the chassis battery supplies the boost/combine switch, and that battery is deeply discharged, there may not be enough voltage to turn on/close the solenoid.

A related issue is that you need to  VERIFY how the chassis battery bank is charged when not on the road.  Many coaches were not equipped with a means to do this!  If this is the case, let us know and we can make suggestions.  Accepted methods include:  "Smart thief" devices that take power from the house bank when it is fully charged from shore power or generator and send it to the chassis battery. There are also smart small stand alone chargers that can be used.  Another option is solar.  Depends on where you store and whether you have shore power available.

 

[F442378]

Well, I found the solenoid, read the two large lugs, sure enough, the mains are low (10.26) and the Aux read 14.04 volts.  The mains started at 9 volts this morning and seem to be slowly gaining power.  Strangely, when I try to start, absolutely nothing happens other than buzzing and clicking sounds.  The amp meter on dash reads about 9 amps.  I have tried shore power (50 amp), no difference in starting.  This morning, I found a 3 amp fuse blown, replaced it and nothing changed.  It was a fuse for one of the battery banks, I have a 3 amp for the main and a 3 amp for the house bank (aux).  I think I will work on the idea you suggested to jump the strong battery bank with the weak bank using a wire.  This should show if the solenoid is working.  The solenoid did get very warm to hot today during my testing and probing. 

I am not sure I have set up the Xantrex Freedon 458 Inverter/charger correctly.  I know, I should not have messed with the settings but the starting problem months ago encouraged me to see how to set it up properly.  Bad decision.  I don’t know what size (amps) or type batteries (cool gel, warm gel, cool wet, warm wet, to choose so I am guessing somewhat.  I know they must be wet, they have tops that expose water over the plates, at least the house batteries do, all four of them.  The main batteries are self-contained…they are the starter batteries that won’t stay charged.  After I jump start the bus with my car, the mains hold charge for a couple days.  So, the system is not charging the mains properly.  Wonder if it is because two batteries re self-contained mains (sealed?) and four house batteries are “wet”.  Humm.

So, I am going to leave the project until perhaps tomorrow and see if anyone responds.  Did I mention that the electrical system is augmented with the 50 amp Smart Energy Management System Model 900 with a EMS distribution panel?  Harvey

[wolfe10]

I would NOT recommend jumping battery to battery OR from boost solenoid large lug to large lug-- you are dealing with a LOT of amps and touching either end of a jumper cable to any piece of metal could have catastrophic consequences. If you do that, be sure to use large-gauge jumper cables and be extremely careful to avoid contacting any metal (i.e. ground).

As I suggested, use a small jumper wire from the lug with 14 VAC to the positive small/signal terminal and let that large surface area of the solenoid do the work.  That small wire will only need to carry an amp or so-- just enough to close the contacts on the solenoid.

[desertdeals69]

Call Fleetwood with your model and they will explain or send you a wiring diagram.  

[crice1989]

Yes I have a 1993 Fleetwood Tioga Montara, 

And recently my distribution center went bad due to a water leak, this caused the house battery to over charge, and then a horrid rotten eggs smell. 

 

I have since replace the old magnatek 6345 power distribution center with a WFCO Converter, with 3 phase charging, and Distribution panel MODEL: WF-8955PEC. 

 

I have a couple questions, I believe when the leak happened, and the old Magnatek Shorted out. The purple wire located at FUSE LOCATION #4 PURPLE in color told the underhood solenoid to stay open as we drove home, thus over charging the house battery as it boiled, and the rotten egg smell was over bearing, So I opted to replace both the SOLENOID for the AUX START  and the POWER DISTRIBUTION CENTER. 

 

Here are my issues, 

#1 my current solenoid has 3 posts, one on either side, and 1 smaller one on the bttm . , and the new EATON BATTERY SEPARATOR MODEL 1314A has 4 posts on the solenoid with 3 flat spades to connect to . 

The two wires coming off the bottom of the old solenoid that I believe to be bad are BOTH FULL PURPLE,  ( am I right in assuming one is the purple wire labeled 15AMP AUX START in my converter, and one is the AUX START BUTTON on the dash ) and if so would both stay tied together an put on the SIGNAL spade of the separator . MODEL 1314A by EATON Manufacturer BUSSMAN.

#2 The EATON SEPARATOR has 4 posts, and the chart says , the 3 spades I can connect to are 

1. START LAMP

2, START SIGNAL

3. GROUND . 

 

So my question is do I take both purple wires and keep them tied together as  their both signal wires ? Seeing as I have no indicator on my dash, and then can I make a ground to the frame and connect it to the ground terminal spade on the separator  as I would assume the old solenoid grounded to the place it was mounted . 

 

Can someone please advise about this , I saw WOLFE10 had replied to a similar thread , Or email me and id love to explain further . 

 

Thank You 

Chad R

EMTRICE89@gmail.com

 

I have attached photos, of the old an new , both wires coming out of the bottom of the old are full purple, and the new you can see the spades and the chart etc. 

 

IMG_4366.HEIC IMG_5731.HEIC IMG_6901.HEIC IMG_6980.HEIC IMG_7973.HEIC IMG_8394.HEIC

Edited March 30, 2020 by crice1989
Spelling, and clarification

[dickandlois]

The attached files are ISO formatted, Apple.

Conversion files not available on my operating system,

Rich.

[manholt]

Ditto!  Sorry, Apple does have an  App, but it's not free!

Since it's a Ford 460, Ford E-350 chassis, I would ask a Ford Tech or call REV Group Tech, they own Fleetwood.

[wolfe10]

crice1989,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum.

Installation wiring instructions: https://allbatterysalesandservice.com/information/Instructions/SurePower/1314A_INSTALL.pdf

[manholt]

Brett, figured you would have a Link!

[wayne77590]

Just for information on Apple HEIC pictures there are 3 ways I know of converting them so they can be read by all on forums.

Export them from Apple Photo, Export them from Apple Preview, and a stand alone converter, iMaxing HEIC Converter.

If anyone wants to see the OP's pictures I can convert them easily and re-post.

[dickandlois]

15 minutes ago, wayne77590 said:

Just for information on Apple HEIC pictures there are 3 ways I know of converting them so they can be read by all on forums.

Export them from Apple Photo, Export them from Apple Preview, and a stand alone converter, iMaxing HEIC Converter.

If anyone wants to see the OP's pictures I can convert them easily and re-post.

Thanks for the information and your offer. 

I would like a of the copy of the files. You can attach them to a PM for me.

Rich.

[rls7201]

On 3/29/2020 at 10:37 PM, crice1989 said:

 

So my question is do I take both purple wires and keep them tied together as  their both signal wires ? Seeing as I have no indicator on my dash, and then can I make a ground to the frame and connect it to the ground terminal spade on the separator  as I would assume the old solenoid grounded to the place it was mounted . 

 

Can someone please advise about this , I saw WOLFE10 had replied to a similar thread , Or email me and id love to explain further .

Thank You 

Chad R

EMTRICE89@gmail.com

 

Your old relay is case grounded. The new relay ( with 4th post) will need a ground wire added to the 4th post.
Leave all other wires as they were.

Richard