Ethanol Effect on Onan Marquis 7000 in a 99 Fleetwood Bounder 24V

[hayesfamily]

So ... anyone who knows me can tell you that I think the government lies and lies again and couldn't tell the truth if the Holy Ghost made them. Thats said, I decided to take apart my carburetor in the genny and not to my surprise, i probably will be purchasing a new one next season.  Now, Yall Diesel owners dont have this issue to worry about however, feel free to chime in because I am sure youhave dealt with it at somepoint. 

Many know I have had genny problems sense about April and I managed to work through most of them because whoever serviced the genny seemed to do 1 thing right and that was put a decent Mobil 1 oil filter on it. The BIGGER issue with this fuel I traced back to a line that appears to be cracked above the sender, and in certain conditions allows air to come in thus causing the genny to starve for fuel. I thought the pick up line on the sender was short, as Joe and I talk about my issues and this seemed to be something that happens at times but - I am well under a ½ tanks and the genny is running. 

So, I took the hose from the chassis to the fuel pump (along my chassis is a metal hose and then another rubber hose into the sender) and the carburetor to a trusted friend who is a marine mechanic. Milton took a look at both the hose and the carb and determined that the damage from the "Ethanol" has taken toll on the lines AND gummed the jet in the carb. The plastic float is starting to become gummy and when he cut the hose open he could see where the brittleness came from ethanol. 

Prior to me taking my carb and hose to Milton he asked me to bring a few gallons of gas from my tank so he could examine it a bit closer. One of the things he found was a presence of water in my fuel tank ... how he figured that out I dont know but he said it was there. ANYONE who took high school chemistry of Chem 101 knows that anything Alcohol is a SOLVENT therefore it will do what it says it will do. I am sure All of us who have gas coaches in the mid Atlantic have ethanol in our tanks sitting over the winter so unless treated (if thats even possible) we have dissolved deposits in our tanks as well as water because of Phase Separation; especially if you traveled to states like Tennessee, Florida, Georgia, and Texas who all have ethanol free gas stations and or pumps labelled ethanol free. In my infinite wisdom I filled up with non ethanol and created a potential problem - but I saw 12 miles vs 8 to the gallon pulling a 3500lb car ---HUMMMMMM wonder why? 

I am not worried about the V10 per sae cause even in 1999 fuel-injected vehicles were designed with stainless steel lines and fittings, modern coatings on cast parts, and plastic parts and tanks that are ethanol-proof so the main engine has no issues --- and the fill hose only sees the gas for seconds until the next fuel fill - not really a problem at least for now ...

Lets get back top the genny, my coach spent 2014 - 2016 winters in Walden NY, kinda upstate but not NY City. It sat from The Summer of 2014 until I bought it in October 2016 - and I wasnt aware of that until I did some odometer math and my issues started to make sense. The Ethanol absorbed some of the water but I honestly believe i had a lower separation and a highly corrosive mix of water and ethanol - and when the previous owner ran the genny over the 18 months it sat, he sucked oxidized sour gas into that fuel line and it SAT ... eating away at the rubber compound. My carb is shot to who ha because that corrosive mix has eaten the inside of it and soon that will completely fail. 

So, if you are having genny issues (Specifically fuel Related) , and they are reoccurring every few years, I suggest 2 things, and I am still experimenting to see if this is possible ... 

1. If you live in states that allowed NON ethanol gas (Maryland Banned it) pay the extra .70 a gallon as it will save you in the long run
2. If you can, consider a way to put a separate tank in your coach specifically for the genny. I am thinking about taking the spare out and ditching it for a 30 gallon gas tank for the genny - not sure how i am going to do it. 
3. Think about putting a Y valve between the gas line on the main tank and a separate tank for the genny, will give you the ability to run a fuel that has an phase separation fighter for when the genny will sit for a bit. It keeps "good" gas in the lines and in the carb. 
4. When replacing genny fuel lines skip the local advance auto ... buy a hose that is  Polytetrafluoroethylene  (P.T.F.E) lined which is teflon lined hose. Its expensive but so is a motorhome!
5. Be proactive ... dont wait til there is a problem to fix it,. Use some type of stabilizer, i personally have 15 bottles of Lucas Ethanol Fuel Conditioner on hand. It goes in when 
    a. I fill up headed to the campground where the coach will/may sit for a week or more
    b. When i fill up and its going in the driveway for a few weeks until our next adventure
    c. if I am doing a long haul (Over 500 miles) I will drop some in so it at the last fill up before I hit the camp ground, and the last fill before I get home. 
 

I know I can not be the ONLY person with these issues so chime in if you have suggestion and or problems. 

[kaypsmith]

Keon, what about a gallon can of non ethanol with sta-bil or similar fuel stabilizer put a y in the fuel line just before the genny fuel pump, use two ball valves, one on the coach fuel system and one on the gallon can. Just before shutting down the genny, switch from the coach fuel to the gallon can, run the genny long enough for the non treated gas to be used and a good supply of treated gas to be used by the genny. Now switch back to the coach fuel after the genny has been shutdown. Just a thought! The Honda line of generators recommend using only 10% gasoline/ ethanol in their generators, never more than that or never use straight gasoline in their motors, they claim that their motors are set up this way on purpose. I have an older gasoline welder that I only run alcohol/ethanol free in, and I always add stabil to the fuel when parked for more than a day. Also I used to always run the carbureator dry when storing for the winter, again, Honda motors do not work well that way, as rsbilledwards says, ASK ME HOW I KNOW. LOL

[hayesfamily]

Yeah that's kind of sort of the way I'm thinking. This is a video of what I did to bypass the main tank in general. Long story short, was on our way to Delaware and it was hot as two rats bumping uglies in a wool sock, so I had to come up with something that was going to allow me to run those air conditioning units while I was trying to figure out this whole fuel delivery problem.

So I bought a gas tank and ran a line over to the fuel pump from a 5-gallon gas can modified for my use and I was able to get about 8 hours out of 5 gallons running both units. Of course I didn't need 8 hours to go from Baltimore over to Rehobeth Beach but never the less it worked out well. It even worked out well going down to Florida just this past month I just had to make sure I kept the 5-gallon topped off. 

What I'm going to do tomorrow is feel that same 5 gallons up with about a gallon of fuel and do what you said, make sure that I have good gas sitting in the carburetor and the fuel pump so I don't end up having to replace that again.

[jleamont]

2 hours ago, HayesFamily said:

hot as two rats bumping uglies in a wool sock

Keonism's 

[hayesfamily]

Joe ... All that I wrote and you pick that lol!

Keonisms .... Am I really that bad?

[Lenp]

Ever wonder why aviation gas contains NO ethanol????  There is a good reason!

Lenp

[kaypsmith]

1 hour ago, lenp said:

Ever wonder why aviation gas contains NO ethanol????  There is a good reason!

Lenp

Sub freezing temperatures?   KEONISMS!

Keon, I have an aluminum 15 gallon boat gas tank that I used for two years on the previous Generac genny, has hose port on top with breathing tube. About 9 inch tall 17X 19 rectangular. I will measure it tomorrow for exact size and let you know.

[hayesfamily]

1 hour ago, lenp said:

Ever wonder why aviation gas contains NO ethanol????  There is a good reason!

Lenp

I'll give you something better than that, you know that big silver trucks that deliver the fuel? A few years ago while I was in college I work for Petro oil company which is a subsidiary of Star Gas in New York City and Long Island and I had the opportunity to work with the guys that were on the trucks. Even though I worked in a building during customer service I had an opportunity to ride with some of these guys. And I knew back in the late 90s early 2000s that ethanol was bad when those trucks had to come back and be washed and rinsed on the inside with real gasoline because of the corrosive nature of ethanol. This was back during the days where ethanol was only 5%.

The greatest concern I have with ethanol is it's lack of power producing punch. It does not contain any BTUs there for it's about as useless as water, and the crazy part is NASCAR is now all E15 so can you imagine how many Motors they ended up scrapping because of that crap running through them. They say that it burns cleaner but the government also said that diesel fuel with less than 15 parts per million of sulfur would burn cleaner, yet now they're requiring diesel exhaust fluid because it didn't burn clean enough. These people making these decisions probably thought that Anna Nicole Smith married for love ... so we were doomed from the beginning when they started making these ridiculous claims about our gasoline.

And I would say that this would be reason for me to switch over to a diesel but let's just face it, how much damage is 15 parts per million or less sulfur is any better? How many seals and corroded tanks are out there now because engines were not designed to run with a fuel that was less lubricating? I remember when diesel fuel what's the cheapest thing you can get at a gas pump and now it cost as much if not more than mid-grade gasoline almost as much as premium 93 octane. I have an ism that I would like to say but it would probably get me banned from the post ...

[manholt]

LOL...Love the two rats!

Your not saying anything new....we have all been down the " we are the Government and we will do what's best for you" path!  I have heard that there is another EPA mandate that comes in 2020 and another in 2024! 

[wildebill308]

Keon, Good video and good solution. 

Bill

[rayin]

I've been using Sta-Bil in my farm tractors ever since my mechanic told me Ethanol would cause problems with everything that runs on gas. My 1972 farm tractor had never given me a problem after being stores most of the winter. I always add the appropriate amount of Sta-Bil to my 5G gas cans prior to re-filling them, sure it adds to the cost of gas, but IMO it's well worth the expense.

I had to replace the carb on my ZTR lawn mower 4 years ago because I forgot to add Sta-Bil to my gas can that fall before storing the ZTR for the winter. I haven't forgotten since.

OH! a side note. This is still in the planning stage, diesel fuel is not immune to suffering the bad effects of Ethanol: https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/fuel_ediesel.php

[hayesfamily]

There is never a dull moment in the EPA ... I wonder if everyone that works there is renamed Walter Peck. (Only true Syfy fans will get that one.)

Anyway they can destroy the consumers pocket they do. I mean, lets face it, manufacturers wont see the brunt of it - WE do in costly repairs!

[wolfe10]

While I disagree with some of what EPA does lets be sure to credit them with the advances in gasoline engines over the last couple of decades. Having spent my career in the automobile business, I have watched "from the inside out".

Sure, pollution is down.  But, more importantly for consumers MPG is WAY up and HP is WAY up.  Heck, close to half the cars today have 0-60 MPH times equal to the muscle cars on the 1960's and get 3X the MPG.

Without the EPA, there would have been zero reason for vehicle manufactures to ever leave carburetors, mechanical/vacuum distributors and frequent tuneups.

[hayesfamily]

1 hour ago, wolfe10 said:

While I disagree with some of what EPA does lets be sure to credit them with the advances in gasoline engines over the last couple of decades. Having spent my career in the automobile business, I have watched "from the inside out".

Yes there have been advances in gasoline and efficiency but at what cost?

Sure, pollution is down.  But, more importantly for consumers MPG is WAY and HP is WAY up.  Heck, close to half the cars today have 0-60 MPH times equal to the muscle cars on the 1960's and get 3X the MPG.

MPG went up in the 80s and has gone DOWN ... like way down with removing lead, and oxygenating fuels. The only reason why  MPG "increased" fuel MPG was because of strict emissions standards. Same goes with increased horsepower because of Variable Valve Timing - a fluke byproduct. The EPA didn't set out to do that, they just wanted to get their agenda across. They didnt care if you got more MPG they just wanted the carbon footprint to be reduced    

Without the EPA, there would have been zero reason for vehicle manufactures to ever leave carburetors, mechanical/vacuum distributors and frequent tuneups.

Think about this, auto manufacturers made out, but other industries like boat and small engine folks still use carburetor units, so what happens to them?  

Forgive me for taking your post apart, I just want to comment on the right stuff. 

So i say all this to say, everything you said is right, but manufactures cant keep up with the new mandates fast enough and they are making changes that untimely hurt the consumer. Like, a hotter engine burns fuel better so we stick a 205 deg T stat in it and let it run hotter (GM). So when there is a failure the window of catastrophe is minutes because by the time you realize you overheated, your aluminum heads on an iron block just cracked - water pump failure occurs and once you drop a valve seat you just bought a new motor. ALL IN THE NAME OF EMISSIONS! So who ends up paying for the change? 

Ford and GM were sweating like a one leg man in an *** kicking contest - AND begged the Reagan Administration to please change the mandates because they KNEW they couldn't make a motor cheap enough that consumers could afford that would meet the requirements. They did lower it some but then came Clinton and Al Gore (who invented the Internet) began the process for raising light-truck fuel economy standards and that was the END OF ENDS. The Persian Gulf reports were in and WE HAVE TO CUT OIL DEPENDENCY shouted the Clinton administration. Had it not filibustered in the Senate i believe,  fuel-economy standards for cars and light trucks would have shotup 40 percent over a decade and the average cost of a small non luxury Ford Escort would have been $25,000 because they couldn't engineer a motor to meet that demand over that little bit of time. Guess what  - HELLO Ethanol! and we been screwed sense! Cause the truth be told, its been in our gas sense the 80. 

[wolfe10]

Keon,

Totally agree with you about the special interest groups and ethanol--ethanol is bad for everyone except the farmers and ethanol producers, and I guess their lobbyists and congressmen who benefit from their campaign contributions.

But, would question that engine longevity is down-- actually it is way up. Today's engines, partially due to tighter control on tolerances and partially due to much cleaner burn ARE lasting well longer than "per-emission" engines.

And, I think we all understand that most vehicles are "world" vehicles.  Even without the EPA, European emission standards (with the increased HP and MPG that stiffer standards brought) would have lead to acceptance of those standards in the U.S.  Said another way, consumers here would have been willing to pay a premium for greater performance and economy.

[bones]

Here is another solution although it is a bit expensive.  We pulled the ethanol ravaged genset and replace it with Onan's propane fueled unit.  This was in my buddy's class c and he couldn't be happier.  Like to believe this was a great idea on my part but that really wouldn't be true.  I'd owned a BornFree Built for Two with a diesel engine and a propane powered genset.  It was a great unit and would become an even greater unit when the EPA/farmer's ethanol plague hit us.  Kind of wish I still had it since I wasn't able to convince LazyDaze to allow me to special order one from them.  I think it is a great option if you can get by with this smaller genset.  

[kaypsmith]

I prefer propane over gasoline for my genset also. I currently use a Honda propane genset in my bus conversion due to cost of the unit over diesel, and the weight factor was part of my decision to use propane. Spare bottles of propane are much safer than gas cans filled with gas. especially since I can't pull gasoline from my onboard 156 gallon diesel tank, LOL. 

[hayesfamily]

Propane hummmmm, what would be the cost of conversion? 

[hayesfamily]

On 11/27/2017 at 9:16 PM, manholt said:

LOL...Love the two rats!

Your not saying anything new....we have all been down the " we are the Government and we will do what's best for you" path!  I have heard that there is another EPA mandate that comes in 2020 and another in 2024! 

Now the concern I have is the 2024 where ALL gas in the US is supposed to me E15, or maybe its 2020 but E15 in my coach WILL cost me a motor. I know people in the mid west using it now and one guy has  At that point I am going to defiantly switch to a diesel and hope I dont have to worry about them introducing ethanol in that for years to come. THEY SAY (the EPA and we know they Lie) cars 2007 and newer should be compatible with E15 because automakers have changed the formulation of the affected components. My coach being a 99 im screwed! They say (Them lying folks again) At gas stations that use blender pumps you'll have to purchase at least 4 gallons of E10 to insure any E15 in the hose is diluted to safe levels in your fuel tank. So that reallyisnt an issue as I usually take 50+ gallons for it to me worth my time and stop but I dont want that crap in my tank at all. 

Therefore, fuel lines, injectors, seals, gaskets, and valve seats as well as the carburetor on my Genny is subject to even worse damage. I cant be the only one feeling this heartbreak - but this may be the only topic us and the tow crew have in common to talk about. (Did I say That?)