GFCI Outlet No Power

[bburns8]

32 minutes ago, wolfe10 said:

I do not see the telephone-type cable for a REMOTE.  If you don't have a remote panel inside, you will need to pull out the Xantrex manual and look up programming/setting dip switches. You can also find it on-line on Xantrex's website.

 

Ambient temperature is part of the initial setup along with battery bank size (in amp-hours) and battery technology (wet cell, gel or AGM).

We only have a rocker switch inside the MH to turn the inverter on/off.  We do not have the Freedom Remote Control Panel or Link installed.  There is a manual for the Freedom Remote Control Panel or Link but I do not have that and do not see it on the Xantrex website to download. 

I downloaded the Xantrex Manual.  I do not see info in the manual about programming/setting dip switches.  I see info on the battery technology and how to set what type of battery you have and ours is programmed for wet cell.

[wolfe10]

Ya, the remote panel gives you a lot more options.

Try selecting AGM type batteries-- they call for a little lower float voltage that will make your batteries last longer.

[dickandlois]

The fact that there is no remote sensor explains the higher then nominal levels. 

Brett's thought of resetting the system for AGM batteries should lower the peak float voltage point.

Rich.

[bburns8]

2 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Ya, the remote panel gives you a lot more options.

Try selecting AGM type batteries-- they call for a little lower float voltage that will make your batteries last longer.

Attached is the battery charger voltage settings based on the type of battery.  It shows if the temp is 60 the FLOAT would be 13.7.  Is this correct?

[bburns8]

59 minutes ago, DickandLois said:

The fact that there is no remote sensor explains the higher then nominal levels. 

Brett's thought of resetting the system for AGM batteries should lower the peak float voltage point.

Rich.

Thanks Rich.  We did not have a remote sensor on our other inverter/charger either but we had normal readings 13.2 range.  Plan on checking the voltage tomorrow.  It will be sunny/warmer and see if there is a change.

[dickandlois]

13 hours ago, bburns8 said:

Thanks Rich.  We did not have a remote sensor on our other inverter/charger either but we had normal readings 13.2 range.  Plan on checking the voltage tomorrow.  It will be sunny/warmer and see if there is a change.

When the new unit was installed, did someone connect a remote control to the system and setup the system for you? There is no way to set up the unit that I have found in the owners manual mentioning Dip Switches inside the 458 units.  

       One needs to remember that the remote cable for the RC-7 looks like a standard phone connection; but they are wired different. A 25 ft. cable is long enough for just about any application.

    A basic remote costs around $125.00 and would offer piece of mind and longer battery life over all. The Link 1000 and 2000 cost more and give you more options, at a cost. 

You need to look over there literature - I have run into a disclaimer somewhere mentioning no warranty on the units regarding charging level consistency.   

Rich.

 Read over the information offered in this Link if you have a remote system connected to you Xantrex unit. 

       When in the equalization mode, the charging voltage level can reach 16+ volts. This level can damage 12 volt equipment connected to the system during this operation. There is a Caution on Page 6 of this folder!

https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/Freedom_Remote_Owners_Guide.pdf

[manholt]

bb.  At 60, then 13.7 is correct on Acid and 13.4 on AGM...as Brett mentioned. if you use the AGM setting, it will FLOAT at a lower rate and give your Acid a longer life!  You still have to check water level each month.

Rich,  agree.  I would spring for the peace of mind and options!  It could have saved a lot of time & worry with Hurricane Florence breathing down his neck! 

[bburns8]

Checked house and chassis batteries plugged into shore power.  Temp outside is 68 and sunny.

House is 13.80

Chassis is 13.80

 

Checked house and chassis unplugged from shore power 25 min later.

House is 12.37

Chassis is 12.70

We have been on shore power for 72 hours uninterrupted.

 

We are going to test drive MH.

 

 

[wolfe10]

Unless you had on some heavy loads, particularly powered by the inverter. dropping to 12.37 after 25 minutes may indicate bad battery.  Most places that sell batteries will test them for FREE.

How is the battery water level?

[bburns8]

1 hour ago, wolfe10 said:

Unless you had on some heavy loads, particularly powered by the inverter. dropping to 12.37 after 25 minutes may indicate bad battery.  Most places that sell batteries will test them for FREE.

How is the battery water level?

The battery water level is good, batteries are new.  We did not have any heavy loads.

If batteries check out good, what could cause this?

 

We pulled over at a rest stop and checked house and chassis with the engine is running, generator on, one AC on.  House reads 14.14 and chassis reads 14.22.  Volt meter on dash is good so far while driving.

 

[wolfe10]

Understanding normal voltage with both engine running and generator running is a little complicated.

Since BOTH sources (alternator and inverter/charger) are ON (if everything working properly) whichever is set to higher voltage will be doing the heavy lifting.

But, even if one is not working, the other could "cover for its friend".  So, to properly evaluate both alternator and inverter/charger, they need to be operated separately.

Evaluating voltage drop with no charging device on is a little tricky.  Absolutely, if checking while there is a load on the battery (either 12 VDC directly or especially 120 VAC through the inverter) it WILL read lower than the REST VOLTAGE.

And, when discussing rest voltage, that is with no charging device on and no loads for at least one hour.  Very common for voltage to "bounce back" after loads are turned off.  The heavier the load, the more the drop under load and more the "bounce back" after removing the load.

[manholt]

If I read this correct, bb is on constant bulk when generator is on.  Even "new" batteries can have one battery with a dead cell, then the charger will over compensate by trying to maintain a constant charge.  Remove the bad battery  and replace with a good one and you will have Bulk, charge and float.

As Brett, Kay, Rich and others have said, since you where in NC Fairgrounds...Have you had each battery load tested?  If not, why?  

I got 2 chassis and 8 house batteries in Sep. 2016, each was load tested, before it went in coach!  It's peace of mind.  Took about 2 minutes to re-program from Acid to AGM.

[kaypsmith]

The only way one can expect a perfect reading on any battery is to charge the battery fully, completely disconnect that battery from any device such as the inverter/charger as soon as, if not before power is disconnected from the charging device, then let it rest for 30 minutes to 24 hours, check the voltage as soon as disconnected and then compare that reading with the 30 minute/ 24 hour reading. If you see a great difference under those conditions then suspect a faulty battery. An inverter/charger by the very nature of the device, remember that it is automatic failover, will immediately start discharging the connected batteries as soon as power, whether it is shore or generator or alternator is disconnected. The inverter/charger goes into inverter mode as soon as external 120 volt ac is disconnected thus causing drain on the connected batteries, even if no ac is being pulled, the inverter uses 12 volts for it's internal maintenance functions, including cooling fans which start immediately then go back off after test are performed by the power on self test (POST) of the inverter it self. I would never expect to see house battery voltage to be the same as the chassis battery voltage unless I had performed my test as I described above.

[dickandlois]

    New Batteries are not always perfect. About 2 years ago, while at a national rally a coach owner was having battery issues. They where not holding a charge over night. The charging circuit was operating as specified.  The batteries where replaced about 6 months before and the owner had the sales recite.

The following day I did a hydrometer reading and One cell had a reading of Water. All the other cells had normal readings, considering there was one cell not contributing any voltage or current. The defective battery was replaced and the system worked as expected.

How does one battery wind up with just water in one cell? Who knows, Kind of think the person adding acid, emptied  one container, garbed another and it had only water in it . 

This issue has been going around and around, so it might be time to take a hydrometer reading of all the cells, charge each battery / run a load test on each battery - to get a good base line of known information directly relative to the batteries and go from there. 

Rich.

[richard5933]

Does the inverter go into sleep mode when there is no 120v load on it?

[wolfe10]

46 minutes ago, richard5933 said:

Does the inverter go into sleep mode when there is no 120v load on it?

While I have not worked on this late a model Xantrex MSW inverter, on all earlier ones, there IS a draw if the inverter is in the ON position/STANDBY position.

With the remote panel we always had, you can very easily turn off the  inverter function.  Turning it off had no affect on charging.  As soon as the inverter/charger sees a source of 120 VAC, it goes into charge mode, irrespective of whether you have the inverter function turned on or off.

[bburns8]

We took the house batteries to Batteries Plus and had them load tested.  Each one tested perfect.

[hermanmullins]

bburns8,

Have you solved your issue with your GFCI outlet?

Herman

[bburns8]

10 hours ago, manholt said:

Have you had each battery load tested?  If not, why?

We were waiting because my dad has a dislocated shoulder and letting it get better before he had to lift anything heavy/use his arm.  We had the house batteries tested today at Batteries Plus.  Each battery had a full charge and each one tested good. 

 

 

[bburns8]

1 hour ago, hermanmullins said:

bburns8,

Have you solved your issue with your GFCI outlet?

Herman

Hi Herman, yes.

[bburns8]

On 12/2/2018 at 5:01 PM, wolfe10 said:

Understanding normal voltage with both engine running and generator running is a little complicated.

Since BOTH sources (alternator and inverter/charger) are ON (if everything working properly) whichever is set to higher voltage will be doing the heavy lifting.

But, even if one is not working, the other could "cover for its friend".  So, to properly evaluate both alternator and inverter/charger, they need to be operated separately.

Evaluating voltage drop with no charging device on is a little tricky.  Absolutely, if checking while there is a load on the battery (either 12 VDC directly or especially 120 VAC through the inverter) it WILL read lower than the REST VOLTAGE.

And, when discussing rest voltage, that is with no charging device on and no loads for at least one hour.  Very common for voltage to "bounce back" after loads are turned off.  The heavier the load, the more the drop under load and more the "bounce back" after removing the load.

 

Voltage readings from yesterday after we test drove the MH.

ENGINE ON/Generator OFF
House 13.58
Chassis 13.70

GENERATOR ON/Engine OFF
House 13.54
Chassis 13.53

Plugged into Shore Power (waited 2 min) Outside Tempertature 65
House 14.50
Chassis 14.49

Plugged into Shore Power (waited 7 hours) Outside Temperature 52
House 13.77
Chassis 13.79

The house batteries are charging when we drive the MH.  Once we are plugged into shore power we always get high voltage readings and then after being plugged into shore power for more than 24 hours the voltage on the house batteries drops when we unplug from shore power.

[bburns8]

9 hours ago, kaypsmith said:

The only way one can expect a perfect reading on any battery is to charge the battery fully, completely disconnect that battery from any device such as the inverter/charger as soon as, if not before power is disconnected from the charging device, then let it rest for 30 minutes to 24 hours, check the voltage as soon as disconnected and then compare that reading with the 30 minute/ 24 hour reading. If you see a great difference under those conditions then suspect a faulty battery. An inverter/charger by the very nature of the device, remember that it is automatic failover, will immediately start discharging the connected batteries as soon as power, whether it is shore or generator or alternator is disconnected. The inverter/charger goes into inverter mode as soon as external 120 volt ac is disconnected thus causing drain on the connected batteries, even if no ac is being pulled, the inverter uses 12 volts for it's internal maintenance functions, including cooling fans which start immediately then go back off after test are performed by the power on self test (POST) of the inverter it self. I would never expect to see house battery voltage to be the same as the chassis battery voltage unless I had performed my test as I described above.

Thanks Kay.  Not looking for a perfect reading.  There is an issue with voltage readings when plugged into shore power and on house batteries when unplugging from shore power.  Batteries were load tested today and are good.

[bburns8]

8 hours ago, DickandLois said:

    New Batteries are not always perfect. About 2 years ago, while at a national rally a coach owner was having battery issues. They where not holding a charge over night. The charging circuit was operating as specified.  The batteries where replaced about 6 months before and the owner had the sales recite.

The following day I did a hydrometer reading and One cell had a reading of Water. All the other cells had normal readings, considering there was one cell not contributing any voltage or current. The defective battery was replaced and the system worked as expected.

How does one battery wind up with just water in one cell? Who knows, Kind of think the person adding acid, emptied  one container, garbed another and it had only water in it . 

This issue has been going around and around, so it might be time to take a hydrometer reading of all the cells, charge each battery / run a load test on each battery - to get a good base line of known information directly relative to the batteries and go from there. 

Rich.

Thanks Rich.  Batteries were load tested today and are good.  

[richard5933]

If batteries tested good and they still lose charge, then something has to be drawing from them. There is a phantom load somewhere, and the first place I'd look is to see if the Inverter/Charger is being properly turned off when not either in use or plugged and charging. If that's not it, then something else is drawing power.

The batteries may be good today, but park somewhere for a few days and run them down to nothing a few times and they'll be needing replacement again.

[bburns8]

54 minutes ago, richard5933 said:

If batteries tested good and they still lose charge, then something has to be drawing from them. There is a phantom load somewhere, and the first place I'd look is to see if the Inverter/Charger is being properly turned off when not either in use or plugged and charging. If that's not it, then something else is drawing power.

The batteries may be good today, but park somewhere for a few days and run them down to nothing a few times and they'll be needing replacement again.

The house batteries voltage on each battery was reading around 6.15.  In order to load test the batteries, they needed to be at 6.3.  We placed the external battery charger on them to get a full charge and then took them to the battery shop and they came out to the car and tested the voltage then they load tested them with a bigger machine (180-200 amps).  Each one tested good.