New Diesel Fuel B20 Biodiesel

[szakaluk]

There appear to be several new grades of diesel fuel (biodiesel).  B20, B5, others.  Can older diesel engines, especially Cummins, use these without harm? Do service intervals change when using them? I have an ISL 400 in a 2006 Monaco diplomat. 

How about in the Onan generators?

Edited September 7, 2018 by szakaluk
Forgot to mention Onan generators

[dickandlois]

2 hours ago, szakaluk said:

There appear to be several new grades of diesel fuel (biodiesel).  B20, B5, others.  Can older diesel engines, especially Cummins, use these without harm? Do service intervals change when using them? I have an ISL 400 in a 2006 Monaco diplomat. 

How about in the Onan generators?

The different Engines do not have any real issues with the Bio mix up to B-20. The external items can be affected more - depends on the age of the coach. Fuel lines and lift pumps that are not directly compatible  are the weakest point. Cummings Engines and others run fine on B-20. 

This is a link to a lengthy discussion centered around Bio mixes. 

Hope this helps fill in most of your questions.

Rich.

[wolfe10]

Actually, both Cummins and Caterpillar have published "max recommended biodiesel content" for their engines, which DO  vary by engine family.

 

[fagnaml]

To add to Brett's response, Cummins has a webpage with extensive information about biodiesel use in Cummins engines --> https://cumminsengines.com/biodiesel-faq   One key piece of information/guidance from Cummins is to not let a biodiesel blend, whether it contains 5% biodiesel or 20% biodiesel is to assure the biodiesel purchased on day 1 is used by day 90.  The reason is biodiesel is manufactured by reacting an alcohol with the tri-glyceride feedstock (vegetable oils and/or animal fats) to break those big molecules into diesel size molecules in a process known as "esterification".   A fuel quality problem with the biodiesel process is the "ester" contains an oxygen molecule which accelerates the oxidation of biodiesel and biodiesel blends (crude oil derived diesel do not have this rapid oxidation problem).   Diesel oxidation results in turning clear diesel black in color and after time the formation of "gunk" which plugs fuel filters.

"Dilution is not the Solution" when it comes to biodiesel oxidation.  Filling a half-full tank of old biodiesel blend with fresh biodiesel does not solve the oxidation problem with the old diesel and resultant gunk from the old biodiesel blend.  From my Petroleum Refiner perspective I concur with guidance that Brett has provided in the past i.e.

1. Use Diesel Kleen + Cetane Boost with each fill-up to keep your fuel system clean --> https://powerservice.com/psp_product/diesel-kleen-cetane-boost/
2. If you will struggle using the biodiesel blend in your tank before the end of 90 days, also add a stabilizer additive such as Sta-Bil brand to help minimize oxidation --> https://www.goldeagle.com/product/diesel-formula-sta-bil-fuel-stabilizer/
3. Use Bio Kleen biocide additive to prevent the growth of microbes (a different type of "gunk" that can plug filters) --> https://powerservice.com/psp_product/bio-kleen-diesel-fuel-biocide/    A well know fact about Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel is it has less propensity to "hold water" and thus moisture in ULSD will settle out in the bottom of your fuel tank.  This water with the presence of food (i.e. diesel) is a perfect environment for microbes to live and grow.
4. Keep your fuel tank full to minimize moisture intrusion into your tank (see item 3 why moisture is bad!).  As fuel tanks empty, the "empty space" is filled with air which contains moisture (especially in the muggy Gulf Coast).   Hence why its important to keep your fuel tank full most of the time.

Biodiesel blends are here to stay in the Petroleum Refining / Marketing world to meet EPA renewable fuels requirements !!  

Also, California this past August passed legislation to become a 100% renewable fuels only state by 2045 (I suspect Oregon and Washington will follow California as they usually do).  The easiest step in converting to 100% renewable fuels is in transportation fuels (gasoline, jet fuel, diesel) meaning all diesel engine owners will need to closely monitor how fast California implements changes in bio / renewable diesel fuel requirements (the much more difficult change is converting their electricity grid to 100% renewable produced electricity).   All diesel engine owners will need to closely monitor what California does to biodiesel requirements as no diesel engine manufacturer currently allows greater that B20 Biodiesel blends (B20 = 20% biodiesel in the blend).

For the record, I have no financial or any other interest in Diesel Kleen, Bio Kleen, Sta-Bil or any other products manufactured by Power Service or Golden Eagle.   I reference those brands as they are readily available at my local Walmart and O'Reilly Parts Store and so the forum will know what the bottles/labels on those products look like.   There are other manufacturers of diesel fuel additives that my local Walmart and O'Reilly's do not sell.

[wolfe10]

We are getting VERY close to a political discussion here.

How much diesel (produce and transport seed for crops that produce bio-diesel, farm equipment to plant, cultivate,  harvest crops to be turned into bio-diesel, trucks to deliver bio material to the plant, energy to process it at the plant) is required to produce ONE GALLON of Bio-diesel?

To me, that is the only relevant question.

The rest is political!

 

Anyone have current FACTS?

[rsbilledwards]

Great question Brett hope some one knows.

[fagnaml]

Brett --

I certainly don't have the answers to your questions.  All I know is Big Oil, including the company I work for, is investing in the development of Renewable Diesel manufacturing processes and facilities given the many problems associated with Biodiesel.   Renewable Diesel is manufactured from vege oils  / animal fats in conventional, but specialized, refinery process equipment.  The Renewable Diesel product is essentially the same as crude oil derived diesel fuel i.e. NO oxygen compounds.   100% Renewable Diesel looks, smells, tastes, performs, etc. like crude oil derived diesel fuel and can directly replace crude oil derived diesel.   THE problem is the cost to manufacture Renewable Diesel.  The "feedstocks", especially animal fats, are much more expensive per barrel than crude oil.  The higher feedstock cost will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher diesel prices.

Here is one of several available articles about the California legislation to eliminate the use of "fossil fuels" --> http://redgreenandblue.org/2018/08/30/new-california-law-mandates-100-renewable-energy-2045/

[wolfe10]

I understand that companies should/will develop and produce fuels based on the  "economic imperatives".  That can and should include legislated directives. 

 We have seen the plus side of that with the EPA over the last 45+ years.  Who in the world would have foreseen well more than 1 BHP/CID and very close to no emission in the 1970's? Ya, had sports cars back then that did the HP ( and was really fun to drive), but I digress.

Makes prefect economic sense for a company to play the game-- bio diesel, ethanol.......  For the planet?????

Maybe not fair, but my whole career was in the automotive industry. I have seen the "can't do it" and "it is done" and then  "we can deliver a LOT more HP with very low emissions".

[manholt]

Rummer has it, that the EPA will discontinue mandatory DEF....Seems that the exhaust is killing trees!  Have not been able to confirm. 

[szakaluk]

Thanks to everyone for their input.  Cummins tech support suggests not going over B20, and be sure to use it within 90 days.  After that, it will clog filters.  Not very useful if you park over winter like we do.

[dickandlois]

1 hour ago, szakaluk said:

Thanks to everyone for their input.  Cummins tech support suggests not going over B20, and be sure to use it within 90 days.  After that, it will clog filters.  Not very useful if you park over winter like we do.

I always fill the tank if the coach is going to set for an extended period. Summer or winter. You just add the correct amount of Bio side  to treat the total number of gallons the tank holds and take a trip in the coach to clear all the untreated fuel from the fuel system and then run the generator for an hr. to flush the fuel system. Then you can run it every month for a couple of hrs. under a heavy load the get it real warm for a time to remove the collected moisture. 

    On a nice day if you live where they DO Not use road salt run the coach for an hr or more. sitting is hard on everything.

I Use Power service Bio Kleen and Power Service Fuel supplement in the White container.   

The  Silver Container is used for cold weather and is considered safe for use  South of Rt. 40. North of 40 use the White container and when you are in freezing conditions add 911 to the diesel to keep it from jelling.

The power service mixes are formulated for different temperature ranges, and one needs to aware of the temperature difference caused by elevation. during cold weather.,

Rich.

[richard5933]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the ultra-low-sulfur diesel doesn't hold moisture well resulting in it settling to the bottom of the tank and increasing the problem with microbe growth.

Other than either pumping out the bottom of a tank or draining the bottom of the tank (if a drain is installed), is there a chemical solution to get the accumulated moisture out of the tank?

[dickandlois]

Richard, this is the only product that helps minimize the water level in Diesel fuel when it is stored for extended periods of time.                            

Diesel fuel and water issue.

                The only additive I know that does have an effect on water build up in diesel fuel that is stored for extended periods.

                At least quarterly or as needed

Treat with Clear-Diesel Fuel & Tank Cleaner to remove water, disperse contaminants and ensure fuel is stabilized for long-term storage

                        

Did You Know?      Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel has more problems with microbial contamination than previous higher sulfur fuels. Since ULSD can no longer carry water dissolved in solution, more water is shedding to the bottom of fuel tanks, creating a life-support system and breeding ground for microbes. Parrafin content has increased as sulfur and aromatics decrease, providing a major food source to microbes. Additionally, sulfur is a natural poison to bacteria and fungus and its reduction has further exacerbated microbial contamination problems in ULSD.

Rich.

Note !  Remember- if you drive the coach and run the Generator, you will use up some fuel. So fill the tank and add the correct amount of Bio- kleen  and Clear Diesel to build up the protection you had 3 months earlier. The dilution of the Octane and gel point will be only slightly affected. Your geographical location will have more or less affect dependent on the local temperature range , The farther North you are from Dec , Jan , Feb  and March or the altitude may require 911 or something equal to keep the fuel from gelling.

Should you plan on using the coach  in cold weather for any reason ADD a good anti-gel and run the engine before placing it in storage.