Diesel Chip

[huffypuff]

I have a 2006 Holiday Rambler Ambassador 40' DP with 8.3L Cummins 330 ISC. I see programmers available that claims more power and fuel mileage. These just plug in to wire harness at the fuel rail and turbo pressure sensors with some being adjustable. Has anyone use one of these chips and if so is it worth it?

[kaypsmith]

I'm a liitle surprised that you have not already gotten a response to your question already, but for what it is worth. I'm an electronic engineer by trade, specializing in the computer field now. Any so called upgrade that supposedly gives better performance and or better fuel mileage is just an overide of what should be operating optimum already.

Sure you can turn up most any engine, but remember that an engineer actually built that product to specifications and input the computer to not get everything that the engine is capable of, simply for the reason that he or she knows that getting maximum performance will actually shorten the longevity of their product. I'm reasonably sure that your unit has already outlived the original warranty period.

If you take that engine in to Cummins, the first thing they will do, even though it is out of warranty, is to remove the add on, before any test will be performed.

Could you get better fuel mileage? Probably! Would you increase the life expectancy of the engine? Probably not! With all things considered, your conscience probably is your best guide. Anyway good luck, which way you choose.

Happy trails, and have fun motoring,

Kay

[desertdeals69]

Usually if you demand more out of your engine you shorten the life. Fuel mileage may increase some but that is usually from being more aware of how it is driven and not from the devise.

[huffypuff]

I guess it's another way to sell snake oil. I figure I would have to burn 1,500 gal of fuel at $4 per gallon to pay for it. I got 8.75 MPG on my 5,000 mile trip to Alaska and back so if I got an 10% increase it would be 9.65 MPG. That means I would have to drive 14,475 mile to realize a payback. I guess not worth it from the feedback I got.

[kaypsmith]

One more thing to think about is, pressure sensors/guages and learning how to take advantage of their readings can greatly increase fuel mileage.

For instance, when the turbo pressure drops, simply ease off of the accelerator when going uphill. This increases the air to fuel ratio, which increases fuel mileage. If you don't have guages, learning to watch the exhaust, when black smoke appears, the smoke is an indication of unburned fuel. From your last post, you are probably already aware of this, one more indication that the chip might prove to be useless in your circumstance. Sounds like you have already made up your mind the best scenario. My comments are mostly so if anyone else reads this post, they might get some common good from it.

Happy trails, may the wind be at your back,

Kay

[wolfe10]

Kay,

Not sure what you mean by back off the throttle when "turbo pressure drops" to increase air to fuel ratio.

I do watch my turbo pressure (on boost gauge). Backing off the throttle LOWERS boost pressure and also lowers amount of fuel injected. That will usually give you better MPG.

The exception is that low RPM at high boost gives better MPG than high RPM, low boost. That is why Caterpillar, Cummins, etc tell you the most economical way to climb a grade is at low RPM. This is good advice UNLESS your coolant temperature starts to rise, in which case you need to raise RPM for higher water pump flow and higher fan speed.

[huffypuff]

That's strange, my owners manual says to drop to lower gear as you hit a steep grade that supposed to keep engine temperature down and fuel mileage better. Then again the transmission has an eco button that seems to have the transmission shift sooner and hold higher gear longer. I have a boost gauge and I thought it was there to let you know the turbo is working. On mine the boost is low when cruising but rise when accelerating up to 25 lbs.

[wolfe10]

That's strange, my owners manual says to drop to lower gear as you hit a steep grade that supposed to keep engine temperature down and fuel mileage better. Then again the transmission has an eco button that seems to have the transmission shift sooner and hold higher gear longer. I have a boost gauge and I thought it was there to let you know the turbo is working. On mine the boost is low when cruising but rise when accelerating up to 25 lbs.

Yes, a lower gear will keep engine temperatures down (and possibly speed up as well). It will NOT maximize MPG.

You have correctly identified the "short answer" for how economy mode works. Some time back I wrote an article on use of the Allison mode button-- it is in the FMCA Magazine.

Yes, the boost gauge does let you know that the turbo is working and the more boost, the more power and more fuel injected. But, the two other parts of the MPG equation are "how many times a minute does the piston come up to TDC and yell FEED ME (ya, every other time it comes up since it a 4 stroke motor)" and higher RPM means more piston/ring travel which means more friction, more power taken by the fan, etc.

Best economy is at low RPM. Drive that way UNLESS coolant temperature starts going up or if going a few MPH faster is worth the extra diesel fuel.

Brett

[huffypuff]

That would be a good link for me to see about the eco mode on the Allison 6 speed if that is what transmission it's about.

[wolfe10]

http://www.fmcmagazine.com/back-issues/2012/march/6972-allison-transmission-mode-button

[BigBeaver]

I follow your suggestion and keep my rpm's down on my Cat C-12 to the max torque range... I don't have a problem of the engine overheating but I do notice that the transmission tends to overheat (130 degrees) from time to time... Any suggestions on how to prevent this?

[wolfe10]

BigBeaver,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum.

130 degrees F is actually COLD for the transmission fluid. If that is a typo, what is the temperature that you are concerned about.

And, under what conditions does it occur?

Brett

[huffypuff]

I copy this from the 3000 MH and 4000 MH owners manual.

HIGH FLUID TEMPERATURE

The transmission is considered to be overheated when any of the following

temperatures are exceeded:

Sump fluid 121˚C (250˚F)

Fluid to cooler 149˚C (300˚F)

Retarder out fluid 165˚C (330˚F)

If the sump fluid temperature reaches 128°C (262°F) the ECU will inhibit operation

in the higher ranges

If the transmission overheats during normal operations, check the fluid level in the

transmission. (Refer to the Fluid Check Procedures as described in the CARE AND

MAINTENANCE section starting on Page 28 of this handbook.)

If the engine temperature gauge indicates a high temperature, the transmission is probably

overheated. Stop the vehicle and check the cooling system. If it appears to be functioning

properly, run the engine at 1200–1500 rpm with the transmission in N (Neutral). This

should reduce the transmission and engine temperatures to normal operating levels in

2 or 3 minutes. If temperatures do not decrease, reduce the engine rpm.

If the engine temperature indicates a high temperature, an engine or radiator

problem is indicated. If high temperature in either the engine or transmission

persists, stop the engine and have the overheating condition investigated by

maintenance personnel.

[thrushl]

I copy this from the 3000 MH and 4000 MH owners manual.

HIGH FLUID TEMPERATURE

The transmission is considered to be overheated when any of the following

temperatures are exceeded:

Sump fluid 121˚C (250˚F)

Fluid to cooler 149˚C (300˚F)

Retarder out fluid 165˚C (330˚F)

If the sump fluid temperature reaches 128°C (262°F) the ECU will inhibit operation

in the higher ranges

If the transmission overheats during normal operations, check the fluid level in the

transmission. (Refer to the Fluid Check Procedures as described in the CARE AND

MAINTENANCE section starting on Page 28 of this handbook.)

If the engine temperature gauge indicates a high temperature, the transmission is probably

overheated. Stop the vehicle and check the cooling system. If it appears to be functioning

properly, run the engine at 1200–1500 rpm with the transmission in N (Neutral). This

should reduce the transmission and engine temperatures to normal operating levels in

2 or 3 minutes. If temperatures do not decrease, reduce the engine rpm.

If the engine temperature indicates a high temperature, an engine or radiator

problem is indicated. If high temperature in either the engine or transmission

persists, stop the engine and have the overheating condition investigated by

maintenance personnel.

Looks like an "F" or "C" issue.

[casuall454]

Here is my two cents on this topic and every person has an opinion. Having attended Diesel College and worked on Perkins, Waukesha and Cummins "B" series (that’s the old 5.9 - 12 & 24 valve series) found in Dodge pickups and White agricultural equipment.

Remember Diesel engines work on the principle of heat of compression (adiabatic combustion) not external ignition (spark plug) that’s why in warmer air diesel engines get higher fuel efficiency. However to increase gasoline engine power you cool the air (cool can) to make the air more dense so more air (oxygen) can be compressed into a cylinder.

The way you can increase air (oxygen) in any cylinder you can either use a super charger or turbo. Turbo chargers are more efficient at higher engine RPM’s and much smaller-- that’s why they are used extensively. The major drawback to turbo use is “turbo lag” the turbo charger has to spool up or increase the engine RPM, which then results in increased “boost” or air pressure being forced into the cylinders. Turbo chargers through the use of waste gates and increased manifold air pressure results in increased fuel economy and acceleration. This also results in turbo charged engines not suffering from the effects of “thin air” (decreased TORR / atmospheric pressure) at higher elevations.

All combustion engines need air in (oxygen) and air out (exhaust). There are several ways to increase the efficiency of any engine resulting in increased MPG. Below are items for any owner operator to consider for increased efficiency and reliability of their unit.

1. Replace your paper air filter with a cotton / oil filter there are several suppliers including ( K&N, Pro-Guard, Summit and many more ) These filters allow more air to flow through with less restriction. The use of cotton-oil filters can void your warranty, you will have to ask your mechanic or check your state laws.
2. Increase the size of exhaust, larger diameter exhaust decreases engine back pressure resulting in the motor not working as hard to expel the exhaust, this also lowers the engine operating temperature. However the exhaust can’t be so large so as to decrease back pressure or the efficiency of the turbo is effected.
3. Computer Chip, there are several who have well documented increases in MPG (Banks Power, Bullydog, Hyperchip and several others) however they usually require some time to install. Some of these chips will increase HP as well, yet this will result in decreased MPG. (Research, Research and Research your needs and ask others before you buy any of these units)
4. Transmission, shift points, clutch band adjustments, fluid and fluid filter. Maintenance of your transmission will result in a quieter, smoother and higher MPG. Don’t skip the maintenance on your transmission. The current standard from Allison is six (6) speed transmissions; expect to see eight (8) speed units in less then 10 years.
5. If your power unit was produced with a catalytic converter installed, don’t remove it (you won’t get a two (2) MPG increase) you do risk a EPA violation citation.
6. Use of motor treatments there are several on the market however they break down into two (2) major groups.
   1. Oil Anti-Friction Treatment TFE commonly called Teflon, Graphite and lastly Moly. The major issue with all of these products are they are suspended in a oil. (Remember basic chemistry suspensions are solid matter contained in a liquid) When these products are used they “build-up” or coat the motor there by potentially taking your motor out of operational tolerances.
   2. Metal Conditioners ( IXL, ER= Energy Release) These products are typically 3-5 microns in size and “condition” the metal on the surface level, that is supposed to result in decreased friction, increasing MPG.

If you decide to use a motor treatment consult with your mechanic or do your own research as both groups have pros and cons.

I am hopeful that at least one person takes something away from this post.

Happy Motor Coaching everyone.

[dickandlois]

Casuall, Welcome to FMCA !

Think you kind of put everything in a nut shell.

With all the products on the market, maintenance in my opinion is the primary ingredient regarding performance and longevity. Putting off or trying to extend the maintenance intervals, that change to some degree depending on conditions can wind up costing more long term.

I have used some of the products you listed, to squeeze out a little more time / miles out of a vehicle. Knowing that at some point major items will need to be replaced or rebuilt.

Rich.

[wildebill308]

I follow your suggestion and keep my rpm's down on my Cat C-12 to the max torque range... I don't have a problem of the engine overheating but I do notice that the transmission tends to overheat (130 degrees) from time to time... Any suggestions on how to prevent this?

Well, running 60 to 65 on I 40 today from the east side of Nashville to Little Rock AK today my tyranny temp was between 150-180 depending on conditions. It was about 85-90 degrees outside.

[wildebill308]

Casuall454, welcome to the forum.

“1.Replace your paper air filter with a cotton / oil filter there are several suppliers including (K&N, Pro-Guard, Summit and many more) these filters allow more air to flow through with less restriction. The use of cotton-oil filters can void your warranty, you will have to ask your mechanic or check your state laws.”

I would never recommend a cotton this is a link to the filter test. You might want to read it if you are using a K&N filter. This is the only test that I have seen that used lab test equipment to do a test that is repeatable and to a given standard ISO 5011 test standard was used.

http://www.billswebs...rFilterTest.htm / oil filter. The problem is they flow way too much dirt.

Bill