Got Turbo Boost Again

[dickandlois]

When the exhaust manifold failed on the coach we lost all the boost. So being a very adventures sole, I decided to do the work myself.

Not for the faint of heart !! Tight area to work and one needs tools that most Do it your self owners do not have.

Rusted parts and even with the large torch set, they played hard to remove. Got all the bolts out but one that proved to be very challenging.

The only way to get the Turbo loose was to remove it with the manifold after removing all the air intake, and output lines from the turbo along with the exhaust brake and the oil lines.

Installed all the manifold parts, a new manifold, gaskets and bolts. Then proceeded to remove the turbo from the old manifold. This required cutting it free, very carefully. Because the spool assembly was well with in specks. An a new turbo is a little costly. ouch !!!

Good thing is I did find that parts to completely rebuild it where out there, but I'm thinking that if it lasts as long; I'm not going to be quit as eager to try it a second time. LOL

Replaced the Waste gate control parts and then set the per-load pressure to engine specifications.

Yes it took a number of hrs and a little over $1200.00

Link to video on how the Waste-gate and VGT Turbos work.

Second link to Turbo Operation information.

http://www.dieselclass.com/Engine%20Files/VGT%20Turbochargers%209-05.pdf

Road Test today proved rewarding. The thing actually worked, with a nice boost curve that had been an issue for the last 2 years.

Nice to have good power again !!!

Rich.

Note, The key trick is to use reduced air pressure for the impact wrench and a reasonable amount heat. I did not want to get into removing the head.

The number one bolt next to the turbo flange was the only one that had rusted enough to brake ! It was accessible, but required the old fire and ice trick and some penetrating oil. That finely did the trick. Chased out threads and all was good.

[shields]

Congratulations Rich, you're a DIY inspiration. I've got a few items to be addressed, and was thinking of turning them over to the mechanics. Now I'm thinking of tackling them myself.

Cheers, and happy travels,

Tim

[huffypuff]

When I had a 93 Southwind DP with 5.9 ISB I had to drill and Helicoil out 3 broken bolts when replacing cracked exhaust manifold. That restored normal power. Then I modified the injector pump and waste gate orifice for more smoke and turbo. It only smoked a little off the line until the turbo kicked in then she ripped for that small engine.

[hermanmullins]

Rich, thanks for the detailed report. It once again enforces my reasoning for having a shop work on my diesel engine. No guts on my part.

Keep up these great reports.

Herman

[elkhartjim]

Rich, you should post this on the other forum also. It'll make Kelly drool with envy.

[kaypsmith]

Good work Rich, I lost boost about 85 miles from home back in July. Limped in, and found the pipe between the left manifold and the Y, just before the turbo had broken in half. Took several hours but was fortunate to get it replaced myself. Parts, about $350.00.

[huffypuff]

I almost forgot Rich to congratulate you on a good job. I sometimes I like to call an old pro to help me with big projects. Young ones don't know how to work now days. I will put my flame suit on now.

[jleamont]

Well, I mentioned it before and now I am going to tackle this job this weekend. Standing out back of our coach at a CG showing the engine to ObedB and Rsbilledwards. I happed to look down the side of the engine near the exhaust manifold and I noticed a mark, so I stick my phone in there and snap a few pictures, picture is below.

I spent an hour or so yesterday looking to see what options I have in the aftermarket industry, a phone call to Cummins to find out if the ISL shared this manifold with any other engine, turns out it does, certain year ISC and ISL have the same manifolds. Unfortunately my manifold isn't made aftermarket. So I called my Cummins rep to poke at him for a few minutes, he explained that the manifold has been redesigned four times since my build, he has no idea as to why but that made me feel a little better. I did locate this company which looks impressive, but expensive. http://www.pdidiesel.com/exhaust-manifolds

I would have spent the extra money if it would have fit. When I called PDI Diesel I was told I was the third phone call for an ISL RV manifold in the last week . The ISC manifold they have is for a truck, which apparently sits the turbocharger in a different position. Everything on my engine including access is for the most part out in the open, just not looking forward to drilling out broken bolts, hopefully none occur. All of the parts ordered;

Manifold both pieces (YUP its a two piece manifold), all new hardware, gaskets, turbo oil feed line and fittings, new turbo drain tube, O-rings gaskets etc. Parts total cost $580.00, not over expensive but not cheap either.

Also found this Youtube video of an ISL manifold replacement project.

 

 

[kaypsmith]

I had to replace the right side manifold last January, I have also felt that pain. Mine does have a left and right side, as it is a V-6.

[jleamont]

Yea at this rate its going to be a full restoration

[wildebill308]

On 11/5/2014 at 6:37 AM, hermanmullins said:

Rich, thanks for the detailed report. It once again enforces my reasoning for having a shop work on my diesel engine. No guts on my part.

Keep up these great reports.

Herman

The problem with some shops is they don't care if they break a bolt or two they just charge you to fix their mistakes. 

So far I haven't had any exhaust or turbo problems on my little 5.9.

Bill

[jleamont]

This is interesting, the OEM manifold has a complete redesign. The photo below is taken on the same angle as the one above, note the differences.

 

[dickandlois]

Designed to help reduce the side / angular loading caused by expansion and contraction. There is also a subtle change in the interior angles. they beefed up that area also.  you might check and see if the shoulder hole area has been modified for more clearance for the sleeves also? 

 One key is to keep the mounting hole(s) as clean as possible so the casting can move relevant to each of the exhaust ports. just like the old 454 head problem - they would crack between the exhaust ports.

Good high temp anti-seize is your best friend.

Rich.

[jleamont]

Rich, good point I will have to look and see, were your sleeves tight against the casting?

I was very happy to see the changes, it made me feel better about installing an OEM manifold. Hopefully the broken mounting bolts are at a minimum, that will make my day much easier. I soaked it down last night with penetrating oil and I plan on doing it each day until Saturday. 8AM Saturday I will begin the teardown, well I know the turbo will come off easily, just had that off for the exhaust temp probe installation a few weeks back, I never seized those at that time. The redesign will not allow for a temp probe, no flat surface and the probe will only get temps from either the first three or the last three cylinders, not both. I'm going to sleep on it and relocate that. I also checked my manifold with a straight edge like in the video, mine was flat I couldn't get a 0.40 feeler gauge under it. I was worried about that, I do not have any way to correct that.

[blakeloke]

Another great informative post by the experts on this forum!  Thanks folks!

I took a visual of our exhaust manifold (2004 Cummins 400 ISL on an '05 Roadmaster & Windsor).  We look good at this point but will look at it a bit more closely when I get home where I left my inspection camera....

Joe, wish I were up there when you start on Saturday.  Would have been good for me to watch, learn, help and video document!

Blake

[jleamont]

Blake, that would be great until a bolt breaks, then the video will go "R" rated quick  .

[dickandlois]

Joe, From memory - The OEM flange hole size went through the flange with no real machined surface milled into the area around the hole for the sleeve to set on. The New exhaust manifold for my engine has the same set up as the one you pictured. The sleeves are tight against the manifold - in my case they required 30ft.lbs. They where tightened slowly over a 4 day period of time to the final measurement.

Rich. 

[jleamont]

Rich, I understand what you mean now. did you watch the video above? I have to verify the torque specs he posted on it. I just hope my turbo doesn't look like his did.

[wildebill308]

32 minutes ago, Dickandlois said:

Joe, From memory - The OEM flange hole size went through the flange with no real machined surface milled into the area around the hole for the sleeve to set on. The New exhaust manifold for my engine has the same set up as the one you pictured. The sleeves are tight against the manifold - in my case they required 30ft.lbs. They where tightened slowly over a 4 day period of time to the final measurement.

Rich. 

Rich, why did you take 4 days to get to your final torque? Sounds like a union shop to me.

Bill

[dickandlois]

Bill, There was no reason to hurry and by only increasing the torque in one lb. steps things settle in over the daily temperature change. Then after a road test and the high to low morning temperatures, the bolts where set to the 32 ft. Lb. level. not much movement, maybe between 1/8 to 1/4 in. of a turn between any of the bolts.

Long high quality click style torque wrenches will set things very equally. The practice or habit was formed when I worked in the Aircraft industry when in college as the product moved slowly down the line. Then I had the pleasure of installing the wire safety wires just  hrs. before they rolled out the doors for preflight certification. The idea is to build things that do not leak or come loose. Never wanted to be called for an inflight repair. 

Rich.

[wildebill308]

15 hours ago, Dickandlois said:

Bill, There was no reason to hurry and by only increasing the torque in one lb. steps things settle in over the daily temperature change. Then after a road test and the high to low morning temperatures, the bolts where set to the 32 ft. Lb. level. not much movement, maybe between 1/8 to 1/4 in. of a turn between any of the bolts.

Long high quality click style torque wrenches will set things very equally. The practice or habit was formed when I worked in the Aircraft industry when in college as the product moved slowly down the line. Then I had the pleasure of installing the wire safety wires just  hrs. before they rolled out the doors for preflight certification. The idea is to build things that do not leak or come loose. Never wanted to be called for an inflight repair. 

Rich.

What company had a moving line building airplanes? 

In reality all you need to do is do an initial torque at say 25 foot pounds and do a final at 32. Yes I would do a re torque after first heat cycle but with some of the good gaskets that isn't required now days. Daily difference in temperature is irrelevant as they aren't noticed in a system that can and will be stressed by temperatures from ambient to 1200+ degrees. If you have an EGT gauge you can see the temperatures change more than 500 degrees in seconds as you crest a hill and start down the other side.

I too worked where I could see the door. Last station in final assembly F-35. We had to test and sell everything to the customer.

Bill  

[hermanmullins]

There was a video out that show them pushing a B-24 out the door every 55 minutes.  They were built by the Greatest Generation. 

Herman 

[wildebill308]

3 hours ago, hermanmullins said:

There was a video out that show them pushing a B-24 out the door every 55 minutes.  They were built by the Greatest Generation. 

Herman 

Best we ever did was one F-16 a day-- well some times slightly more if everything went perfectly. I think we built 30 0 defect AC in a row. That means there were no issues or defects noted from delivery to the flightline, first company flight, First customer flight and ferry flight to receiving base. No writeups or defects of any kind noted.

To bad the RV industry can't strive for that level of quality.

Bill  

[hermanmullins]

Zero defects is great accomplishment. With the current sophistication of today AC. 

[jleamont]

I really hope I don't jinx myself but tonight I reached in from the back with a ratchet, 13mm socket and with an extension and loosened the upper and lower bolts on the first three cylinders, little effort and they came loose. One was already loose