American Coach Dream-- Turns Out To Be NIGHTMARE

[1fatboyr]

Have owned 2016 American Coach Dream for 7 months, not 1 of which has been trouble free. This is our 3rd new class A coach,(we are not new to RVing). All started the first day we paid for it. The nice man at LazyDays turned his back to us and said our problems were not theirs, but for another $100,000 we could trade it back in. (Yes that is what he said).

Next we had to deal with American Coach,drove to factory, after 2 weeks, left factory, that day water leaked from ceiling, mud flap fell off on interestate, since then trim has fallen off, bed frame fell apart, tile has cracked, water pump sounds like it is taking off, water leeks from under Aqua Hot unit, ignition switch fell out, drive train shakes, tag looses air, water again leaking from air conditioners into ceiling lights and vents (can you say MOLD)? These along with many other problems with this coach has led us to feel that American Coach should buy it back and use it to teach their workers how NOT to build a coach. American Coach uses the Dream in many advertising pictures. I would like to show new buyers my pictures.

[rsbilledwards]

Based upon all the horror stories I have heard from folks that bought new coaches over the last few years I would not buy a new one on a bet. There are so many good used ones out there that have been disassembled and reassembled to solve all the problems. I would buy used only.

 

Bill Edwards

[jleamont]

So sorry to hear this. I hate to say it but most of todays new equipment in this industry sound similar to your list of complaints. It seems like each manufacture has these problems and the worse part most do not seem like they care, they just want your money. The manufactures want to build them as fast as possible and let the dealer fix it under warranty. Between the coach builders with poor quality on materials, poor workmanship then throw the new emissions laws into the pool, new equipment scares me. Another problem I am faced with each and every day is the technician pool (industry wide) is diminishing, most of the younger generation doesn't want to work and get their hands dirty, so what is out there for them to hire is pretty sad to put it nicely, so when it goes back for warranty whether it be the dealer or the manufacture service lane the person fixing your list of issues has little to no idea what they are doing, its just a pay check for them.

I have this conversation with leadership where I work on a regular basis, every so often you find one technician that is great, but its rare and becoming much worse everyday.

[manholt]

If you have an Attorney, tell him...if you don't, get one! 

Which factory did you go to, and who was still there?  Allied or EVR?

[RodgerS]

I am very sympathetic to your situation, however:

1) Experienced owners understand that there are industry wide quality control issues that vary from minimal to extensive and for all levels of coaches including entry level, mid level, and luxury level coaches.

2) It is also well known that if one tries to trade in a recently purchased coach, the owner will take a severe hit as you are faced with. 

3) I don't think that American Coach will buy it back as these coaches are not covered by lemon laws, despite some minor exceptions. Attorneys have written about this problem for buyers. 

4) I don't think they will teach their workers because it is not a worker problem. Quality control engineers know that the RV industry is mfg the way the auto industry was before the Japanese forced their hand. Coaches are readily sold in this environment and buyers are lined up. They rely on dealers and owners for after the fact repairs, and some trips back to the factory.  These are luxury, optional dreams, and it is assumed you can pay for it and wait for it...unlike a car. 

5) Showing new buyers your pictures will make you feel better, but that is about all you will accomplish.

6) As rsbilledwards says, one answer is to buy used. My answer is to up skill myself on repair and inspection knowledge, whether I buy new or used, and I plan to buy used and do my own warranty work. 

7) If you hire an attorney you are wasting your time and money...no lemon laws to assist you. On this issue I differ with Carl. My attitude is to fix it as soon as possible and get back on the road. As Carl has told me, most people just want to enjoy their coach, not waste time learning new RV technical skills. I think it follows that if you hire an attorney you will also not be enjoying your coach, but it will feel good fighting with the mfg who has their own attorneys and lots of time to drag you around while your attorney banks his fees.

Rodger S. 

[manholt]

Florida has Lemon Law, strict...go back to Lazydays and insist that they fix it or return your $$$.  I know of more than one who has done it and they got the $$$ back!  LD went chapter 11 in 2010, now they have 3 more dealerships and they don't want to loose them over 1 coach!

[RodgerS]

Based on my non-attorney reading of Florida Lemon laws, he is not gonna be happy.  

The house "living facilities" is where you get  hurt. 

Many of his issues seem easily fixed anyway, whether house or chassis. 

My guess is that a Florida attorney will expect to be paid upfront, based on a hourly rate. 

Just like a divorce. When you write the first $10,000 check, have two more signed for $10,000 each in your checkbook. 

But heh, I agree go for it. However, each person's situation is different!

I'm gonna have to rethink how many ways you can use a motorhome...traveling to visit ones attorney and visiting the mfg.

Enough said.

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/85ce6e5a7210f47c85256cc9005d415e

Recreation Vehicles

Purchasers of new or demonstrator recreation vehicles (not van or truck conversions) should be provided with the "Consumer Guide to the Florida Lemon Law" by their selling dealer at the time of purchase. The Consumer Guide contains a section that explains Lemon Law coverage for recreation vehicles. If you did not receive a Consumer Guide when you purchased your vehicle, call the Lemon Law Hotline at 1-800-321-5366 (1-850-414-3500 if outside Florida) to request a Guide. Recreation vehicle manufacturers are also required to inform consumers how and where to file a claim with the RV Mediation/Arbitration Program. This information must be provided in writing at the time of acquisition of the recreation vehicle.

Certain parts or components of recreation vehicles are NOT COVERED under Florida’s Lemon Law. These are referred to in the law as the "living facilities," which are defined as portions of the vehicle designed, used or maintained primarily as living quarters, such as the flooring, plumbing system and fixtures, roof air conditioner, furnace, generator, electrical systems other than automotive circuits, the side entrance door, exterior components and windows other than the windshield and driver and front passenger windows. This is not a complete list.

The Lemon Law rights period for recreation vehicles is 24 months from the date of delivery, just like for other motor vehicles; however, other time periods are different and consumers should read the Consumer Guide for more information.

• IMPORTANT: Recreation vehicles are often made and assembled by more than one manufacturer, each of which may separately warrant its product. RV Consumers should receive all applicable warranties from the selling dealer at the time of purchase and these documents should be kept in a place of ready reference at all times. Repair of defective components should be sought from the service agent who is authorized to perform the repair by the manufacturer that warrants the component. Consult the warranty and/or owner’s manual of the manufacturer(s) whose component(s) are believed to be defective to find out where to take the RV for repair. Service agents that perform any examination or repair under the manufacturer’s warranty must provide the consumer with a written, legible repair order each time the vehicle is brought to the shop. Keep records of all repairs and required maintenance, and the mileage associated with warranty repairs.

If the recreation vehicle has been subjected to at least three repair attempts for the same defect that is not a defective living facility component, or has been out of service for repair of one or more defects that are not defective living facility components for 15 or more days, then, written notification must be sent to each manufacturer (not the dealer) which may provide warranty coverage of the defects. If the consumer is not certain which manufacturer’s warranty covers the complaint, it is better to send the notification to all potentially responsible manufacturers. The Motor Vehicle Defect Notification form may be used for this purpose or you may send a letter. The notification must be sent by registered or express mail. Click here for the Instructions and Motor Vehicle Defect Notification form. Please refer to the section about Recreation Vehicles in the "Consumer Guide to the Florida Lemon Law" for further information about notification, manufacturer response and time requirements, as these provisions are different for recreation vehicles.

Recreation vehicle consumers who wish to pursue the remedies available under Florida’s Lemon Law, are required to submit their disputes to an industry-sponsored mediation/arbitration program that has been qualified by the Department of Legal Affairs. If there is not a qualified program, or if a program’s qualification has been revoked, then, recreation vehicle consumers who wish to pursue the remedies available under Florida’s Lemon Law must submit their disputes to the Department of Legal Affairs for arbitration by the Florida New Motor Vehicle Arbitration Board. 

The claim must be filed with the Department of Legal Affairs within 60 days after the expiration of the Lemon Law rights period, which is 24 months from the date of delivery of the vehicle to the consumer. DO NOT DELAY! RV consumers are NOT required to submit to any other manufacturer-sponsored program.

Recreation vehicle consumers wishing to pursue the remedies available under Florida’s Lemon Law should call the Department of Legal Affairs, Lemon Law Arbitration Division at 850-414-3500 for information regarding how to file a claim and to obtain a claim form.

 

[five]

1fatboyr,

 

I just read your identical post on another forum.  I'll give the same advice here I gave there...call somebody at AC, sent the name of who to call in a PM.

[manholt]

FIVE.  Did you read the part, "I spent 2 weeks at AC Factory"...?

Rodger, I did not suggest that he get an attorney in Florida, nor that he takes them to court, nor that he threatens to sue !  When it comes to lawsuits, you don't say it up front...there are many other ways to get someone's attention, and it's free!  Think out off the box...

[RodgerS]

When I get my RV box, I will reply to these posts while cooking outside on my

BBQ and having a beer. Should smooth out the interactions a bit. 

Rodger S. 

[five]

2 hours ago, Manholt said:

FIVE.  Did you read the part, "I spent 2 weeks at AC Factory"...?

 

Yes, that's why I suggested he call AC, and gave him the name of a guy who will take care of him.  What I don't understand is that he drops this bomb of a post and then disappears...off this and the other forum.

[manholt]

FIVE.  I tapped on his profile.  Picture of him and his wife along with the coach and trailer.  He's responded to OP's before.  I suspect he's weighing his options.

[jleamont]

This taking it back to the factory is all new to me. So what do you do while your unit is being worked on? Are you allowed to speak to the technician, sit in the coach while they work? Or is it like any car dealer atmosphere?

We have owned some high end cars and I was a service manager at a BMW dealer some years ago they roll out the red carpet when you pull up. Is it the same when you roll up in a coach like this? After all it's pretty much the top of their product line. 

I just can't process the treatment I read about. I treated people with cars that cost from $40,000 to $140,000 like they were gold, I can't imagine doing it to someone with a $300,000 motorhome. Geese if all of their customers got bad support it wouldn't take long for them to disappear.

 

 

[manholt]

Joe.  The MSRP on a 16' Dream start at $440K to $531K.  Don't know if OP's is a 42' or 45'.

Carl

[RodgerS]

"This taking it back to the factory is all new to me."

It's quite common, as I understand it, for the new motorhome owners, as not all of the work can be done by dealers. 

Very few technicians are certified in general or for specific products, which is why it is common to simply replace stuff until they get something to work,

rather than troubleshoot...at least based on my experience in one RV dealership and an RV rental operation. 

For the few months I was there, I was the only one, as they told me, who ever trouble shooter a couple of their AC units after the experienced technicians threw up their hands and said to order more replacements. 

========================

"I can't imagine doing it to someone with a $300,000 motorhome. Geese if all of their customers got bad support it wouldn't take long for them to disappear."

Your thought is correct for cars, a must have vehicle for most people, vs a luxury custom hand made land yacht for the special few that have the high end coaches, new or used.  Yes, a 2016 American Coach Dream is such a coach and custom hand made stuff is expensive to own and maintain.

Start with the fact these are custom built units, not a true assembly line with lots of robots punching out a run of similar cars, but a custom hand made coach with a huge binder(s) of warranty information that comes with each coach. Also not well covered by lemon laws like an auto.

Easy enough to research and figure out as you read these forums and posts.

Experienced members like Carl will help you along.

Rodger S. 

[1fatboyr]

I have not gone away, just trying to make sure my next move is a good one. I am 61 years old and do not feel I can have to many more experiences like this. Have had 2 newmars and also had typical problems with them, but never treated so poorly. I here man y of you saying lawyer up. I sure would like to have a company like AC stand up and do the right thing so I could come back here and tell you all how great they treated me. I do feel that all the water that has come into the ceiling and walls of this Dream will produce mold and health problems for my wife and I.  Yes, Lazy D, did nothing to help us and after sitting on their lot for a week we gave in and drove to factory in Indianana in winter. 

[jleamont]

I would get one of these action lines to assist (the ones we read about in the RV magazine's). They seem to be very effective and wouldn't cost you anything but maybe a trip back to Indiana to have it looked over by someone higher up since it will most likely gain their attention.

Carl, I didn't think about it but yea I could see one of these hitting that number, after all my MSRP was $425,000 (yea, its a nice unit but really???)

I have owned two in my life so far, both used purchases from small mom and pop dealers, both treated us like family and I didn't spend nearly that on both combined. I guess we were just lucky so far. I'm putting all of this in the back of my mind, learning and hoping I don't ever run into this situation.

Rodger, I have become friends, or more like distant family with most of the folks on here, they have taught me a bunch and helped me with problems we have experienced over the years which is great since my immediate family and I have only been RV'ing for 8 years now part time, we've laughed and had heated discussions about issues and hopefully learned from each other all while helping another person like the OP. Hopefully this post on here will gain enough traction, I know if I was running that company I would have people monitoring forums especially this one trying to get in front of complaints before unhappy customers are created. Bad publicity doesn't sell motorhomes.

1fatboyr, please keep us posted on your progress and I wish you the best of luck. I'm certain when your complaints reach the right desk in that company someone will step up to help you. As you realize getting to that desk is going to be your challenge, how fast it happens will tell you how much the lower level management staff cares about its customers. Hopefully you get to that person before you write the check Rodger spoke of above to wake someone up.

Joe

[hermanmullins]

1 large gentleman,

As to what has been said so for it seems that Lazy Days is not concerned with your problems. Get all the people you have spoken to at LD and their responses. Take your notes and your coach to the Factory. Not one of their service centers, but to the factory. Present your greviounces to the highest person you can fiend. They need to know how you have been treated by one of their so called Premium Dealers. 

You should be calm and not threatening.

Let them know all you want is your coach fixed so you can enjoy it for a long time.

I always like to talk face to face with someone rather than a blunt non emotional email.

As Joe said keep us up on your progress.

Good luck,

Herman 

[manholt]

My 2 cents worth, since I have a AC myself.

At the time that OP purchased his Dream, AC was going thru a transitional period.  EVR had just acquired AC from Allied and they decided to resurrect the Dream into their line up, by dropping Tradition and Heritage.  From what I have been able to gather, EVR is a 2 Billion Dollar a year Corporation and this is their first time, High End Coach adventure!  That means that whoever is in charge, of the new coach division, is going thru a learning curve.  I'm not trying to excuse their actions to the consumer, just make some sense of it.   

Bottom line, is that now the problems are in EVR's court and I have no clue as to who to contact.  Everyone that I knew, I can't track down !  I will not buy or recommend AC again, but that has nothing to do with OP's problem, just my own reasons !

I'll suggest you go with Herman and Joe's suggestion.

[RodgerS]

"Bad publicity doesn't sell motorhomes."

That should be a meaningful statement and sometimes it is. Last year Newmar responded to the complaints regarding the easily overloaded front axle on its 2016 Dutch Stars. 

On the other hand, the tremendous number of quality control problems I have read in more than two years in multiple forums suggests otherwise as few of the new prospective buyers are reading the forums and asking for assistance from the experienced members. For some reason, the OP was surprised by the quality control failures he was faced with, but I doubt the experienced forum members were surprised, though certainly sympathetic and I'm sure disappointed to hear this continuing saga. 

I think most buyers see the beautiful interiors, whether entry level, moderate, or luxury, and buy based on first impression, just like buying a car and with similar expectations. The marketing materials are absolutely beautiful and dream inspiring, and the salesman and women often know little about what they are selling but are quick to try to answer ones questions with assumptions and often unsupportable representations.

As Carl would say, there goes Rodger ranting again, but really, there is a reason many owners have UP-skilled themselves and many prefer to buy used, often citing their willingness to let the new owners sort out the common new coach issues. 

I'm sure the coach that is the subject of this thread will be a good coach once the owner gets it through its teething pains. 

Nothing he has mentioned would keep me from buying the coach from him used, but I suspect he would not like the price I would offer for it.

Rodger S. 

[RodgerS]

Note: the reason I would offer a low price is because I doubt the growing pains are old news for this coach and there are plenty of excellent gently used coaches available to choose from.

Rodger S. 

[manholt]

Rodger, don't assume what my reaction might be...actually what you just wrote is right on !  I would not buy a used coach, no matter the make, that has gone swimming !  As the OP said, "MOLD".  The future ramification off that is not pretty and basically makes it unlivable! 

[RodgerS]

Carl, you touched on something that could be explored further in this thread "I would not buy a used coach, no matter the make, that has gone swimming !  As the OP said, "MOLD"."

I think there is always some risk that a seller of a used coach has failed to disclose to the buyer a prior leak and water damage. And that a leak test or water damage inspection may not uncover past water damage or a previously repaired leak.

Here is a research thought. 1) Be sure to check carfax and the warranty history with the mfg. 2) Even if repair and maintenance documentation is missing, you can probably get permission from the seller, if this is an up and up deal, to call his RV repair service(s) and get permission with them to review the repair and maintenance history, and any recommendations they have made that have not been acted upon. 

Many people have argued with me that it is unreasonable to expect documentation from most sellers, but none have ever suggested the technique of connecting with the RV repair service or dealer, with the permission of the owner, that I have done on some of the warranty inspections, to dig a bit deeper into the history of the coach and its current condition.

Rodger S. 

 

 

 

[obedb]

Not a big fan of lawyers in general. Had the opportunity to attend law school  after graduating with honors earning a BS in almost a double major of finance and economics. My college had a law school. Just wasn't me, but there are times when a person needs to "lawyer up". You need to do just that. The threat of a lawsuit almost always wakes up responsible people. If it doesn't, then they are jerks and they deserve to be taken to court. IMHO

[five]

Joe...when you take your coach to the factory you have three options...depending how long they'll keep it:

-  Stay in the coach (unless being painted).  Turn it in at 6 AM, and they'll bring it back out to the REV CG at 2:30.

-  Stay in a motel.

-  Go home.

They told me they would keep the Allegiance two weeks so I drove home in the toad...750 miles.  I got first class service at Decatur.  Plus you can walk around the shop all you want and watch what they are doing.  They fixed the problem, fixed other things I did not even mention, and reimbursed me for 1,500 miles of diesel fuel.  I did the same thing when I took this coach to the REV Repair Center in Alvarado, TX...which, barring a very serious problem and I can't get into Decatur, I'll never use again.

I disagree with the lawyering up comments.  If you get hold of the right guy at REV, he'll take care of the problem that's what I did.  When I talked to him, I very briefly explained my problem and its history, he said, "you need to bring that coach up here so we can fix it!"  I don't want to put his name on a public forum, but sent it to the OP in a PM on another forum.  In the long run, the OP will be better off working with REV than in an adversarial relationship when the lawyers get involved.