Freeze Plugs

[bajco1]

I have a 2011 Tiffin with a Cummins ISC 380 engine with 40,000 miles. I recently noticed a small amount of coolant on the ground when i stopped my RV. I checked the the engine and could not see where the leak was coming from. I decided to take it immediately to the Cummins dealer. On the way engine lights came on and I was forced to stop when the engine cut out. While stopped coolant just flowed out along the gutter. It was then towed to the Cummins dealer.

They have inspected and told me that one freeze plug came out and another has a hole in it.They are now replacing all the Freeze plugs.

I did have a problem with a faulty radiator cap some two years ago that i had to replace. the problem caused the loss of coolant that i had to replace.

I have driving buses for 40 years but have never come across this problem, could it be faulty material that the freeze plugs have been made from? Has any other member had any experience or knowledge of other people with this engine having the same problem? 

[wolfe10]

Bad freeze plugs (particularly more than one) are VERY rare if the proper coolant is used, changed when called for and SCA/DCA added as necessary if standard low silicate for diesel coolant. 

But if coolant becomes acidic and/or there is electrolysis (problem with 120 VAC system ground, for example) yes, freeze plugs are the "least strong" part of the engine's part of the cooling system.

The good news is that they are relatively inexpensive.  I would suggest you get the old ones back and along with the tech/shop foreman try to determine the cause of the failure.

Hopefully anyone else with a similar failure can chime in.

[dickandlois]

bajco1,

Welcome to the FMCA Forum!

You might want to ask if the shop checked the PH of the coolant that was removed during the Plug replacement. When you replaced the Radiator Cap, did you change the antifreeze and what brand and type did you add to the system? How long did the engine run on the low coolant? 

The fact is that when the engine over heats the water portion is the first to turn to steam and that can cause an increase in the Acidity of the coolant.

Rich.

[bajco1]

Thank you for your welcome and your helpful comments. When the Radiator cap failed it pushed out the coolant, the engine temperature rose and the engine sensor cut the engine. I put in coolant but do not know the brand or type only that it was suitable for Diesel engines. I have never come across plugs failing because of the coolant and neither have a number of mechanics I have spoken to. They have only seen erosion from salt roads around the plugs and not from the coolant. My coach has never seen a salted road.

It is amazing to me that Cummins if they know this will erode and fail with the coolant do not put in a better material for these plugs. The plugs are about $20 and the fitting of a new set $3,600. 

 

  

[jleamont]

bajco1, I have seen this before with the fleet at work. I had two Freightliner M2's do this, one with an ISC and the other with an ISB. One was a 2011 and the other a 2012. We bought them used and of course both had fresh coolant in them at time of purchase. What we didn't know was the company before us never serviced the cooling systems and started to rot them out. They started to fail in 2016 around 100,000 miles. We chased coolant leaks two different times on each before I told our one location to replace all of them. This was a project since there are a few between the transmission and the engine, which required the transmission to be pulled for access. In a DP....oh boy, depending on the engine compartment design by Tiffen that could be a real project. Component's like the transmission, air compressor will have to be removed for access since they do sit behind them, which can get involved. For us to do them in a truck chassis (more room to work) internally cost us around $2500.00 per truck. I also had the water pumps and thermostats changed while in there. One ran another 15,000 miles after and the EGR cooler failed, not sure if related (I cant help but think it was related).

$3600.00 is a tough one to digest.

[manholt]

Your right, Joe.  That's a big bite for something that could have been prevented !  I buy my coolant from Cummins, yea it cost more that Wall Mart, but if something comes down the pike and bites me, and it's caused by coolant...it's their dime!  Same reason I use Onan oil and parts. 

[jleamont]

Carl, I agree. I only run Cummins Coolant in both the coach and generator. When I bought this unit to my surprise aftermarket coolants did not meet the Cummins specs, close but no cigar. Mine tested great but I replaced it anyway since it was the wrong color, when I saw that after testing it I know it wasn't OEM coolant, being aware none of the aftermarket coolant met the Cummins spec I elected to flush it all out. Boy was that a project with Motor aid and on a DP. I decided then only OEM filters and coolant for both the generator and Coach engine. I do run either Mobile Delvac or Shell Rotella for oil.

[desertdeals69]

These have been referred to as freeze plugs for years when actually they are core plugs.  I have seen dozens of frozen blocks and the plugs don't push out, the blocks just crack.  In marine engines those plugs are brass because not all engines have fresh water cooling.  The brass plugs don't corrode with salt water for cooling.  I have always used brass plugs in all my engine rebuilds.

[obedb]

I am aware that things proprietary enhance a manufacturers profit, but how can a company build a Diesel engine that works only with there antifreeze, their oil, their filters etc? Call me puzzled?? 

[jleamont]

Well they will most likely work on the others, theirs is just more dialed into their products to enhance the longevity of it. But for a few dollars per gallon why branch out, cheap insurance.

the filters has me puzzled that no aftermarket has the same micron spec. So I spend $2.00 more per filter and it could prolong my $3500 injection pumps life or help it along the entire time I own it. No brainer there either.

[dickandlois]

13 hours ago, obedb said:

I am aware that things proprietary enhance a manufacturers profit, but how can a company build a Diesel engine that works only with there antifreeze, their oil, their filters etc? Call me puzzled?? 

Things can get interesting when using the proper filters and coolants.

One of the fuel filters used on my Cummins powered coach is only supplied through Alliance Truck Parts. When I have the Freitghliner service the coolant system on the Cummins, they used Shell Rotella ELC extended life.

I have to feel that when they install the Cummings or other engine into there chassis, supplies and materials would meet the standards set by those engine builders.

Rich.

[obedb]

Nonsense. Metals are metals. Seals are seals. Rubber is rubber. Engineer an engine to only run on what the manufacturer supplies and see how long the big fleets would put up with that. They buy what works at the lowest price. Those big outfits would not buy an engine at a bargain price only to be raped by proprietary parts, lubricants, coolants etc. Not buying it guys. If Cummins can't build an engine that works afield, shame on them. They sell engines  all over the world. Oh shoot. I am in Timbuktu. Where can I buy antifreeze? Nope!?

[jleamont]

Obedb, there was a point in time I would agree. Today's engines are temperamental. Depending on designs coolant circulation how much heat must be carried at specific flow rates they became over engineered. That is why Ford has several differ transmission fluids and coolants depending on what power train is under the hood, while the coolant from the local parts store is universal. I watched many people wouldn't read their dipstick at the dealership and add universal transmission fluid to their truck. Did many transmission rebuilds not covered by warranty and many Diesel engine repairs also not covers for the incorrect coolant. They would require us to pull samples before authorizing the repair. Honda for many years had special power steering fluid, that goes back into the late 80's. Probably still the same. Heck Cummins has at least 4 difference coolant specs. I'm no engineer but there must be a reason. I didn't believe much into filters until we had a bunch of CAT C7S injection pump failures back in 2007, CAT came in took our filters and failed pumps had them tested and told us you do not have a pump problem you have a filter problem killing our pumps. We switched to CAT and the problems slowly went away.

[obedb]

EL antifreeze is mixed with distilled water (then becomes coolant) and last hundreds of thousands of miles in a big rig. How many miles a year do you drive Rich? Basic things such as filters can always be crossed. Sorry but don't let yourself be taken advantage of. We are all led to believe that things need to be changed annually even in low mileage use. 4 thousand miles on a filter that was designed to run 15 to 25 thousand miles. Change it anyway. Not buying it. Oil that runs 12 thousand miles or more if non synthetic and 25,000 miles with analysis or longer in an engine that works very hard during it's life. I have fallen victim to the .paradigm. But not anymore. Will do analysis from now on.

[dickandlois]

Byron, No where as many as some, It changes every year. Some years 5000 to 7000 and then up to over 15000 some years.

The fact that we are now able to spend some time in the Southern part of the country over the winter and have family scattered around from Florida to Alaska an Norfolk to San Diego, its not hard to run over a lot of white lines some years.

I have been trying to find a replacement for the one fuel filter, but no one has one the will thread onto the top and still supply the water separator. Could replace the mounting, but it not that much to use the filters that was installed.

Rich.

[rsbilledwards]

I am late into this discussion as usual and here is my two bits. I have used primarily WIX Gold filters for every thing, rarely any other. Now I use for the C12 Cat, CAT's secondary 2 micron final fuel filer. I did that because Dave Atherton (here CAT Master Mechanic, retired) said of all the filters that is the most critical. I too oil sample every change.

Years ago our local NAPA owner had ten filters cut apart on a table, all the same cross referenced number and there was/ is a huge difference in the quality of filters, it was unbelievable! The standard for me was established then and there. The WIX Gold filters had the most filter element material and it appeared to be of a better quality than the others. This was a subjective opinion.  I also drive AUDIs and use only Audi filters for similar reasons and that is the level of QC for their filters is different than after market filters. On my 356 Porsche I have run WIX for decades with no issues both stock and in racing configurations. 

As for anti-freeze and like fluids, I believe manufacturers have like fuels, different blends that are proprietary for what ever reasons and this allows them a way out if you try to blame them for a failure. Do the others work, generally yes. Am I using an approved Transynd in the Allison in front of the C12, NO, I am using an industry look-a like and un-approved with similar properties used by dozens of large corporate users. I am quite sure it is different, will it work, probably. It is a toss up based on dollars and cents and the odds and mechanical knowledge. 

Bill Edwards

[obedb]

Had a fellow owner operator that had something like you describe. Will try to call him in the next day or two. Luckily he is still alive. Have lost friends in the business because it is a really tough way to make a living. Will get back to you.

[wolfe10]

Cummins, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, etc all have written specs for coolant.  It is in the owners manual. All basically the same requirements.

Yes, there are a a number of manufacturers of coolants that meet those specs.

The only real advantage to using your engine manufacturer's brand that I can see is if you are in their shop for work, they will have the proper (read that what you already have in the system) in there.

[jleamont]

Obedb, check this video out. I am all to familiar with this specific engine and failures. I have rebuilt at least 50 by now and replaced more than that from catastrophic failures. It wasn't a great design to start with but if properly maintained and with some performance modifications they ran great and held up well (head studs, performance head gaskets etc.) FYI this is also the same engine utilized in smaller Motorhomes. Maxxforce 7 by Navistar (V8 turbo Diesel)

Bill, I have an account with NAPA also. I too will run their filters (WIX) as often as possible in our cars. With the exceptions of the engine above and all of the Ford Diesel products after for customers, my coach (since their cross referenced fuel filters are the incorrect micron rating). My local store still has the display you mentioned, every time I go in I lift the filter cans up and look again, it still baffle's me.

At work we sample all fluids on the fleet, I have a few DD13's that have had some poor oil analysis results come back (I love the "ACTION" emails). Based off of my suspicion I have thrown different filters on the same engines (we do not run OE filters here) one change I tried a different brand, the analysis got worse, next round I tried OEM filters analysis got better, went back to our stocking brand, dropped back in the red zone.... bad again, switched back to OEM got me out of red to "Caution". I believe what is happening is name brands are outsourcing over seas utilizing the same wrapper and we the consumer are oblivious to what is happening behind the scenes. I am currently working to purchase OEM filters for the same price as the aftermarket, I can probably get it close, but at the end of the day the I have to obtain our expected disposal mileage even at a slightly higher maintenance cost.

One phrase I learned in the business; "pay me now or pay me later" it still holds true even though I do not like this phrase.

 

[manholt]

Hi, ya'all !   Interesting conversation, based on saving a few bucks a year..  To me, it's like, I can get 500' more per gallon at 60mph, compared to 61mph!   I remember back a few years ago, on this Forum, when folks where up in arms about Big Rig owners, who in their opinion was wasting fuel and destroying our environment, because we was doing more than 57mph !

 

Carl 

[jleamont]

 remember the 2nd freightliner with the freeze plug issue mentioned above....well it just came in on the hook (tailgating a tow truck) EGR cooler ruptured.

[dickandlois]

Did they park it next to you at the campground?

Rich.

[obedb]

I wasn't myself last night. Could have been that late evening really big vodka and tonic. If I offended anyone, I apologize profusely. Especially to you Rich. You are always ready to help with things electrical.

[jleamont]

1 hour ago, Dickandlois said:

Did they park it next to you at the campground?

Rich.

No I'm back at work, well I was sitting on the couch now 

[jleamont]

20 minutes ago, obedb said:

I wasn't myself last night. Could have been that late evening really big vodka and tonic. If I offended anyone, I apologize profusely. Especially to you Rich. You are always ready to help with things electrical.

We still love ya. 

And we have seen worse