Frozen LP Tank Leaking??

[wolfe10]

Yup, 11 column inches of water= .397 PSI

[richard5933]

Brief update...

I got the two tanks taken to the propane dealer today. The tech said that they are in need of updating to comply with current DOT regs (and of course repair to the leaky valve). They are still in good condition overall and will not take too much to get up to snuff so that they are safe to continue using. After the repair/upgrades they'll fill them so I can just reinstall and be done. Sounded like I'd end up with a re-cert, even though technically speaking horizontal tanks don't require such if permanently mounting according to the info I found.

Interesting mounting method used on these tanks. They each have a metal ring on the 'bottom' of the tank (as seen if stood up vertically). The compartment which holds these two tanks horizontally has cradles in it. The tanks slide into the compartment lengthwise resting in these cradles. At the back of each cradle is a round wooden disc sized perfectly to mate with the bottom of the metal base on the tanks. When they are slide in, only one bolt is necessary at the front to secure them in place. I love it when simple solutions like this work so well. I'll try and remember to take a couple of photos when I remount the tanks.

Regarding the hoses/regulator...

The propane dealer directed me to another shop in town that does LP equipment, hoses, etc. I'm going over there on Thursday to have two new hoses made up to the correct length to replace the current rubber hose and the hard copper tube. I'll also upgrade to a new 2-stage regulator.

After all this things should be good to go. Sure is nice to have local shops that can get this stuff taken care of. Milwaukee was once called "The Machine Shop to the World." Good thing enough of the old places are still around that it's quite easy to find places to work on things here.

[bm02tj]

Make sure the shop making hoses can certify and tag the hoses with proper info

It sounds like you donot have permanently  installed tanks so needs to be re-certified  

[richard5933]

33 minutes ago, bm02tj said:

Make sure the shop making hoses can certify and tag the hoses with proper info

It sounds like you donot have permanently  installed tanks so needs to be re-certified  

You'd have to provide me with your definition of 'permanently installed' before I can really say. They were bolted in place and certainly not designed to be removed for filling. They have separate ports or filling and for the hose connection, and they appear to have never been removed since being installed. The hoses are not attached with quick-release, and the bolts were proper nut & bolt (not wing nuts). To me, they were certainly 'permanently installed' and mounted horizontal. If so, where do you see something that indicates certification being required?

I will double check with the propane dealer when I pick up the tanks in a few days.

[dickandlois]

Richard, the DOT regulations have been rewritten over the years. So recertification my well be in order, but the rest of the system should be fine. 

Glad you are having the copper lines replaced. Did have one fail at the flaring and the LP created an impressive plum behind the Class C. We where running the  Trans Canadian at the time.

Decided not to stop - just stayed at 65 MPH - Turned off the refrigerator and hopped that nothing light up the plum. 

Thank emptied in about 5 min. 

Rich.

[blakeloke]

Richard,

Curious to know if the LP service tech found any water in the tanks?  If I remember correctly Joe (Jleamont) found a considerable amount of water in his tank after years of being in-service and filling process (trace amounts of water in supplied LP).

I worked in the upstream oil and gas industry for over 30 years with many of those years working and managing natural gas processing plants.  Our LP and Butane mix tanks would have small accumulations of water in the bottom of the "bullet" tanks after several thousands of gallons of finished product had cycled through.  Which was just part of the process.  Our dehydration systems weren't absolute.  We had to cycle the tanks out of service periodically for draining, inspection and certification during plant turn-a-rounds.

Blake

[jrock]

The fact that they are removable is a plus I’d think ? if you were in an extended stay you could just remove and drive to a refill station in the toad instead of taking the whole show on the road

[jleamont]

I don't think the intention it to remove it for filling, mine was empty and it took two of us to lift it out, and a lot of foreign words could be heard from a block away that afternoon  

[wildebill308]

I think a much better plan is to install a "Extend a Stay" type of adapter and just hook in a extra tank. I wouldn't go over a 40# tank. I had a 60# but it only had one hand hold in the top and was hard to move, yes and it was heavy over 100# full.  

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=extend+a+stay+propane+kit&tag=mh0b-20&index=aps&hvadid=77721773822668&hvqmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_8hrqmhf2fg_b

Bill

[richard5933]

I appreciate the suggestions on various ways to fill the tanks or use portable tanks, but the reality is that the only thing using the propane in the coach is the furnace. I suspect that the two tanks combined will take us longer than we'll be staying in one place and our plan right now is to just fill the LP tanks as needed when we stop for diesel or to dump our black tank. I'm not looking forward to reinstalling the tanks once they are serviced and filled. Can't imagine that I'd want to make this a regular habit.

Even if they did remove easily, and even if they weren't so darned heavy, we don't travel with a towed vehicle so it wouldn't do us any good. Before anyone questions why we travel without a towed vehicle, the answer is simple. We don't need one. The coach doesn't have slides or leveling jacks. On the occasion that we have to pull up anchor and run to town it really doesn't take all that long to get things going. And if we really don't feel like moving the coach, we just call an Uber or taxi.

[kaypsmith]

In my state recertification is only required every 15 years, and with the simplicity of the mounting, it will not be that difficult to pull and replace, but I would bet that the job can be done by just driving to a qualified to a recertification location, if not deemed a permanent install, although I would bet that it is. Most LP refill stations can do the job of refilling them, especially since they are being brought up to date. Also a wise decision to replace the plumbing while making the system up to date.

[richard5933]

On 1/9/2018 at 7:12 PM, bm02tj said:

Make sure the shop making hoses can certify and tag the hoses with proper info

It sounds like you donot have permanently  installed tanks so needs to be re-certified  

Is this a state-by-state rule regarding tagging of hoses? I had the new hoses made today, and the guy said that there is no requirement to tag hoses. He seemed to imply that doing so was not possible, and that only the tank would need certification.

I've got the new hoses and a new 2-stage regulator all ready to mount. Tomorrow I'll be picking up the tanks, but of course the temps are forecast to be in the teens until the end of next week. Might be a few days until I actually get these things installed and leak tested.

[kaypsmith]

I've always used premade hoses for my LP installs in a coach, have never seen any type of certification process here in Alabama. I would check with the LP shop that is working on your tanks your question about the hoses in your state, surely they can give adequate advice for your state.

[bm02tj]

In Canada they need to be tagged and rated at 350PSI

for a rubber propane hose 

Only a few shops can make and certify hoses 

[richard5933]

Update:

The tanks have been repaired/updated/refilled/re-installed. I performed the usual leak test with copious amounts of soapy water.

The propane dealer installed new fill valves, POL (output) valves, relief valves, and did a re-certification on both tanks. I installed a new 2-stage regulator using new rubber hoses I had made at a local shop.

A bit of information about this that I picked up in the process follows. It should be applicable throughout the US if the propane dealer's information is correct. Can't speak to any specific state requirements outside of Wisconsin though.

There are two types of propane tanks in use on RVs. There are the DOT tanks and the ASME tanks. If a tank is permanently mounted in a horizontal position AND is an ASME tank, then it does not require re-certification. DOT tanks and anything not permanently mounted horizontally needs to be re-certified after the first 12 years and then every five years after that. The relief valves are good for ten years and should be replaced after that. I'm told that only tanks require certification, not hoses or accessories.

Our tanks are over 40 years old. As far as we can tell, they have never been re-certified or worked on in any way. Doesn't even look like they were ever filled once leaving Custom Coach in 1974. Since our tanks are DOT tanks, they required re-certification. Other than the valve replacements, the tanks are in good shape and just have some typical surface scratches/rust. I don't anticipate having problems getting them filled in the future, as the dealer put the re-certification tags in a place which is easy to see.

Each of our tanks holds 33 pounds of LP (just over 7 gallons liquid) and weighs in at over 70 pounds each when full including the weight of the tank. Not the lightest things around, but still manageable by one person.

Cost of all we had done was as follows:

Refilling: $50
Valve replacements and installation: $120
Taxes & Hazmat fee: $10
Regulator/hoses: $60

Total: $240

This was an unexpected expense, but in the scope of things it really wasn't too bad. In the end we have two safe tanks installed and filled. They will hopefully serve us well until the next re-certification in 5 years.

[manholt]

Richard.  That looks a lot better, great job for little cash!

bm02tj.  As you said, your in Canada...your under the UK International Standards!  We are not. Yet, our Standards are also recognizes Internationally and Richard will have no problems driving around the beautiful country of Canada...if he so choses! 

Richard if you do go to Canada, leave the Scotch and Whiskey, along with the gun at home!

[rayin]

The only valid reason to insulate an LP tank is to keep it warm enough for the liquid to boil/convert to a gaseous state, smaller tanks may require an outside heat source in sub-freezing temperature since the surface area of the liquid is smaller. As the percentage of butane rises, so does the boiling point/temperature; as reflected in Herman's post.