Ford Transmission Shudder in Overdrive

[elibedarn]

Ford 2001. Anyone experience a shudder in overdrive? One mechanic thinks changing the torque-converter would solve this issue. Ford sold me a small tube of, Motorcraft additive friction modifier, which did not work, or maybe I have not given it sufficient time.   Any ideas is appreciated. 

[jleamont]

Did anyone flush the transmission with a machine I.e. not just a drain and fill?

[wildebill308]

Do your symptoms match the ones in this article?

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/203

Bill

[manholt]

Had it happen when I was hauling a trailer with bales of hay.  I forgot to put it in trailer mode, low rpm caused the shudder!  Your 2001, is it a truck or coach?

[dickandlois]

10 hours ago, elibedarn said:

Ford 2001. Anyone experience a shudder in overdrive? One mechanic thinks changing the torque-converter would solve this issue. Ford sold me a small tube of, Motorcraft additive friction modifier, which did not work, or maybe I have not given it sufficient time.   Any ideas is appreciated. 

Overdrive is the last state or gear ratio of the trans. Any vibration in any other gear?

Got to ask, how many miles on the Ford, How many miles on the Trans fluid, What is the condition of the spline connection and the universal joints?

What is the status of the torque converter? Does it shutter in or out of lockup  mode ? Most transmission torque converters are locked up by second gear.

What Transmission is installed?

What is the transmission hydraulic pressure readings? 

Rich.

[elibedarn]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:21 PM, jleamont said:

Did anyone flush the transmission with a machine I.e. not just a drain and fill?

Yes Gator Ford of Tampa

[elibedarn]

On 12/13/2018 at 5:58 AM, DickandLois said:

Overdrive is the last state or gear ratio of the trans. Any vibration in any other gear?

Got to ask, how many miles on the Ford, How many miles on the Trans fluid, What is the condition of the spline connection and the universal joints?

What is the status of the torque converter? Does it shutter in or out of lockup  mode ? Most transmission torque converters are locked up by second gear.

What Transmission is installed?

What is the transmission hydraulic pressure readings? 

Rich.

No vibration in other gears.

58K miles

I feel no torque converter shutter.

Transmission installed, will check.

Transmission hydraulic pressure readings, don't know how to get a reading.

On recommendation of a local transmission shop I purchased a Ford Additive. I drove 55 miles and the shutter remains. Maybe that is not sufficient mileage so I will take a longer trip to see if the Additive helped performance. 

 

 

 

[elibedarn]

On 12/12/2018 at 9:55 PM, manholt said:

Had it happen when I was hauling a trailer with bales of hay.  I forgot to put it in trailer mode, low rpm caused the shudder!  Your 2001, is it a truck or coach?

2002 Class A Georgie Boy built on a Ford 2001 F-53.

[jleamont]

25 minutes ago, elibedarn said:

No vibration in other gears.

58K miles

I feel no torque converter shutter.

Transmission installed, will check.

Transmission hydraulic pressure readings, don't know how to get a reading.

On recommendation of a local transmission shop I purchased a Ford Additive. I drove 55 miles and the shutter remains. Maybe that is not sufficient mileage so I will take a longer trip to see if the Additive helped performance. 

 

 

 

Who recommended and put that in your transmission? Ford dealer?

Shudder, does this happen at low speeds turning right turns?

[elibedarn]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:24 PM, WILDEBILL308 said:

Do your symptoms match the ones in this article?

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/203

Bill

Interesting article. Thank you. It only happens in overdrive and is continual under power load even very slight power increase.   

[jleamont]

Is that part number XL-3? 

[rayin]

In my humble opinion the torque converter is slipping. I suggest NOT using overdrive until it is repaired ASAP, as every time it slips, tiny metal particles can be introduced into the trans oil, which are then pumped throughout the transmission valve body if/when the tranny filter does not capture every bit of metal.

[f442485]

I had a 2006 F350 4x4 dually. They had my truck for 200 days. I was having the same issues. They even brought out service tech (problem solver) and he could not fix the issue. After rewriting the ECM and TCM programs  five times, they ended up buying it back. Best thing that ever happened for me.

[huffypuff]

Are you sure it';s not a ignition system breakdown under load.  I had many Ford trucks in my shop that misfire under load and boy did it shake the drive train.  

[dickandlois]

6 hours ago, huffypuff said:

Are you sure it';s not a ignition system breakdown under load.  I had many Ford trucks in my shop that misfire under load and boy did it shake the drive train.  

Ray,, The thing is, if it is an ignition issue. One would think the Check Engine light would be on. There is the possibility of having one code stored and no light, when 2 codes are stored they will always light.

Have run into it when the OB2 readers are connected, one shows up. The O.P. does not mention running a code reader, but did mention that the problem only happens in overdrive and that if the Tow / Haul switch is engaged there is no shutter.

If a transmission pressure test was not run, then why did the transmission shop offer an additive. Less then 60K miles. The overdrive system can be damaged with a load / weight beyond a load.

Rich.

[manholt]

Rich, I don't think it was the "Transmission Shop", that ordered the additive!  Joe asked if it was XL-3 for a very good reason, it's not compatible with ATS!

[jleamont]

Heres my take on this: That transmission was known for torque converter shudder, often caused by lack of maintenance or wrong fluid useage. They also had a problem with turbine chatter, which often made people think they had an engine knock. That engine was also known for coil issues, end result was the same with a shudder at low RPM under load will yield the same customer complaints.

The friction modifier pictured above is for limited slip differentials,  not transmissions. Most of us are familiar with that product when we have posi traction, you need it so when you turn corners the clutches in the differential do not chatter.

Ford PCM’s back then lacked a lot of diagnostic capabilities, both root cause possibilities should illuminate either the OD light to flash or the Engine light to come on. In those years it had to be very serious before the PCM would notice it.

If it were me, I’d have the transmission flushed with a machine, especially now that it’s fluid is contaminated with axle friction modifier and due to its age is just good maintenance anyway. I would make certain the proper fluid is utilized and not some “universal” transmission fluid is used. Right afterwards someone needs to operate it with the Ford IDS software connected and monitor all 10 coils on the graph to make sure none are dropping out. If so address those immediately. Given the age of the coach I’d replace all 10 plugs and coil boots. Especially since this year is notorious for stripping spark plugs. Getting them properly serviced now could save a lot of money in the future with a breakdown. Those coil boots were most of the root cause for coil failure, as they would crack or develop a hole and send the spark to ground in the spark plug hole.

[jleamont]

Carl, this coach has the same power train as the truck you texted me about yesterday.

[dickandlois]

All Good points Joe! The one that causes the most issues is the V-10 ignition. early spark plugs

I did find This info. but not sure what specific chassis he has .

E-Series Class C Motorhome Chassis Features

Three wheelbase choices: 138/158/176-inch Up to 14,500 lbs. GVWR and 22,000 lbs. GCWR(1)

Powerful 6.8L 2-valve SOHC V10 engines TorqShift® 6-speed automatic transmission with tow/haul mode

97,500-mile scheduled tune-up interval (20

number (2) Under normal driving conditions with routine fluid/filter changes.

Rich.

[jleamont]

Rich, wrong transmission. The Torque shift or 5R110 came along a few years later. 2003 with the Diesel and gas somewhere around 05 ish.

He has the 4R100 in this year, this was the altered infamous E4OD, (not a good reputation) that gave most heart burn. The 4R100 was introduced in the late 90’s as a fix to the E4OD, from the outside they look identical other than the transmission lines were 3/8 vs the older had 5/16 and the cooler bypass during warmups. Other wise they look identical, sharing the same transmission pan.

that needs flushed with something like this; yeah, that’s in the corner of my garage

[dickandlois]

18 minutes ago, jleamont said:

Rich, wrong transmission. The Torque shift or 5R110 came along a few years later. He has the 4R100 in this year, this was the altered infamous E4OD, (not a good reputation) that gave most heart burn. The 4R100 was introduced in the late 90’s as a fix to the E4OD, from the outside they look identical other than the transmission lines were 3/8 vs the older had 5/16 and the cooler bypass during warmups. Other wise they look identical, sharing the same transmission pan.

Thanks Joe ! If Diff. treatment was put in the trans - not a good plan, time to change the fluid and filters, After a good check of the switches an running a pressure test.

Been trying to fine some info on the use and specifications on the tow / haul switch. Like when to use it(maximum Load before disengaging the overdrive)

Rich. 

[jleamont]

18 minutes ago, DickandLois said:

Thanks Joe ! If Diff. treatment was put in the trans - not a good plan, time to change the fluid and filters, After a good check of the switches an running a pressure test.

Been trying to fine some info on the use and specifications on the tow / haul switch. Like when to use it(maximum Load before disengaging the overdrive)

Rich. 

His year doesn’t have tow/haul. He has OD on/off on the shifter. Tow haul came with the 5R110 only in the F series in the beginning. The 5R110 also could be used for engine braking, the 4R100 if you down shifted it to slow you down you would wipe out the coast clutches eventually. Changed many of them along with Torque converters and Pumps. I had them down to 3 a day, out, fixed and back in and done. Horse trailer people and camper people use to keep me very busy.

[huffypuff]

3 hours ago, jleamont said:

Heres my take on this: That transmission was known for torque converter shudder, often caused by lack of maintenance or wrong fluid useage. They also had a problem with turbine chatter, which often made people think they had an engine knock. That engine was also known for coil issues, end result was the same with a shudder at low RPM under load will yield the same customer complaints.

The friction modifier pictured above is for limited slip differentials,  not transmissions. Most of us are familiar with that product when we have posi traction, you need it so when you turn corners the clutches in the differential do not chatter.

Ford PCM’s back then lacked a lot of diagnostic capabilities, both root cause possibilities should illuminate either the OD light to flash or the Engine light to come on. In those years it had to be very serious before the PCM would notice it.

If it were me, I’d have the transmission flushed with a machine, especially now that it’s fluid is contaminated with axle friction modifier and due to its age is just good maintenance anyway. I would make certain the proper fluid is utilized and not some “universal” transmission fluid is used. Right afterwards someone needs to operate it with the Ford IDS software connected and monitor all 10 coils on the graph to make sure none are dropping out. If so address those immediately. Given the age of the coach I’d replace all 10 plugs and coil boots. Especially since this year is notorious for stripping spark plugs. Getting them properly serviced now could save a lot of money in the future with a breakdown. Those coil boots were most of the root cause for coil failure, as they would crack or develop a hole and send the spark to ground in the spark plug hole.

Thanks Joe, That is why I mention ignition breakdown as misfire will not always be caught by the ecm at certain condition.  

[hermanmullins]

Puff & Joe, 

A loose ground, just a bit corrosion and or a slightly rubbed or frayed wire can give you untold issues with a coach. They are  hard to find and will be in the darnedest place.

Keep up the good advice and suggestion. 

Herman 

[jleamont]

7 hours ago, huffypuff said:

Thanks Joe, That is why I mention ignition breakdown as misfire will not always be caught by the ecm at certain condition.  

Thanks Herman!

I just went through this with Keons coach, took his almost 5000 miles of shuddering to turn the engine light on, and even then it was a “random misfire” code. His Fleetwood only took me a little over an hour to replace all 10 plugs and coil boots. I did find the culprit, one boot had a white dot on it where ignition spark was going to ground. Considering those boots were 19 years old he did ok. It was time for some TLC on the other 9!