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killackeyptrcorp

Leveling jacks and slide out issues

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Greetings

recently while on a trip my leveling jacks and slide out stopped working properly. 

I have a 2004 34’ Alpine Coach. When I turn the hydraulic system on I can clearly hear the electric over hydraulic systems engaging, when I set the system to auto level the coach I see all four jacks extend until they each contact the ground however there is insufficient force to lift the coach or to complete a thorough leveling cycle. Also when I attempt to extend the slide out it seems to be making a little effort to do so by the extending an inch or two however  will not continue beyond that. 

My instinct Is that the hydraulic pump has lost the necessary amount of pressure to perform its purpose however This issue began as an intermittent malfunction, it would work one day then not the next therefore I suspect the pump itself is working so perhaps the malfunction is related to valving or solenoid or perhaps a clogged filter/screen in the suction side of the hydraulic passage. Currently it is in a non-op state. 

Does anyone have advise or service manual as to troubleshooting this issue? I am a Diesel mechanic so I have a fair amount of technical skill but I have not worked on this system in the past. 

Thank you in advance 

Dave 

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Dave,

Assume you have checked the hydraulic fluid level in the HWH reservoir.   If  I remember correctly, it is inside the "little door" just behind the right front tire. 

The dipstick is marked with the correct level.  Kind of hard to access that area to add fluid.  I found pouring the ATF or HWH fluid (HWH fluid is clear,  while ATF is red, but either work fine in the HWH system) into a small (8 ounce size works fine) disposable water bottle (yes, clean and dry).

If fluid level OK, does the HWH motor sound like it is working at "normal" RPM or is it racing like the pump is not connected?

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3 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Dave,

Assume you have checked the hydraulic fluid level in the HWH reservoir.   If  I remember correctly, it is inside the "little door" just behind the right front tire. 

The dipstick is marked with the correct level.  Kind of hard to access that area to add fluid.  I found pouring the ATF or HWH fluid (HWH fluid is clear,  while ATF is red, but either work fine in the HWH system) into a small (8 ounce size works fine) disposable water bottle (yes, clean and dry).

If fluid level OK, does the HWH motor sound like it is working at "normal" RPM or is it racing like the pump is not connected?

 

3 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Dave,

Assume you have checked the hydraulic fluid level in the HWH reservoir.   If  I remember correctly, it is inside the "little door" just behind the right front tire. 

The dipstick is marked with the correct level.  Kind of hard to access that area to add fluid.  I found pouring the ATF or HWH fluid (HWH fluid is clear,  while ATF is red, but either work fine in the HWH system) into a small (8 ounce size works fine) disposable water bottle (yes, clean and dry).

If fluid level OK, does the HWH motor sound like it is working at "normal" RPM or is it racing like the pump is not connected?

Yes sir, that was the first thing I did. Indeed the components are located where you remember.  The jackets were already lowered to ground level  consequently  The fluid level did not indicate on the stick so  I raised the jacks back up (which does not require any hydraulic pressure due to the return springs) and the level showed normal. 

The electric motor seems to making the normal and expected sounds while running. No binding or struggling while running. Actually there is plenty of room to add fluid with a quart bottle of ATF with a small funnel. The dipstick is integral with the breather cap. 

I build Allison transmissions and hydraulic pump PTO’s for fire apparatus and I’m familiar with the expected sounds of most pumps.  I visually inspected the hoses associated with the jacks and slide out while my son activated the systems, I did not see anything unusual in the movement of the hoses when pressure was applied. I saw the expected “stiffening” of the hoses when pressure was applied. 

My instinct is that there is an obstruction in the suction circuit, perhaps in the reservoir. Perhaps there is a screen that is clogged. 

With all the valves and solenoids and wiring it may be possible that one is not operating correctly or perhaps not at all. If there is hydraulic schematic available I could isolate the hydraulic flow of main pressure to the components. 

Its the intermittent aspect that has me believing the pump has not failed.

Dave 

 

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4 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Dave,

Assume you have checked the hydraulic fluid level in the HWH reservoir.   If  I remember correctly, it is inside the "little door" just behind the right front tire. 

The dipstick is marked with the correct level.  Kind of hard to access that area to add fluid.  I found pouring the ATF or HWH fluid (HWH fluid is clear,  while ATF is red, but either work fine in the HWH system) into a small (8 ounce size works fine) disposable water bottle (yes, clean and dry).

If fluid level OK, does the HWH motor sound like it is working at "normal" RPM or is it racing like the pump is not connected?

Also I know the connection is still good between the electric motor and the pump due to the attempt to push the slide open and the fact that the leveling/stabilizing jacks deploy down and makes light contact with the ground.

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3 hours ago, killackeyptrcorp said:

Also I know the connection is still good between the electric motor and the pump due to the attempt to push the slide open and the fact that the leveling/stabilizing jacks deploy down and makes light contact with the ground.

Dave,

With You being familiar with hydraulic operation, the common operating pressure for the jack and slide systems is 3000 lbs. when working properly. The common current requirement is 20 amps. Have you checked the wiring for the pump and solenoids for loose or corroded connections?

The hydraulic manifold has 3 or 4 solenoids for the jacks and one for each slid out. 

Who's leveling and slide system is installed on your coach ?

Rich.

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Alpine used HWH systems for both leveling jacks and on most coaches, for  slide operation as well ( electric slide mechanism was used on some bedroom slides as well as some generator slides)

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6 hours ago, DickandLois said:

Dave,

With You being familiar with hydraulic operation, the common operating pressure for the jack and slide systems is 3000 lbs. when working properly. The common current requirement is 20 amps. Have you checked the wiring for the pump and solenoids for loose or corroded connections?

The hydraulic manifold has 3 or 4 solenoids for the jacks and one for each slid out. 

Who's leveling and slide system is installed on your coach ?

Rich.

Hi Rich,

yes sir I removed and cleaned every wire connection that I could find related to the system. It is possible of course that there are additional connections between the power sources and the pump/valve body. There are also two 15 amp in-line fuses on 18-20 gage wires connected to the pump/valve body which are in good order. 

When I get to my shop tomorrow I can connect a pressure gauge in order to confirm existing main pressure. 

Also I confirmed this morning the generator slide is also weak. It did fully extend and retract, although very slowly. One design I’m not too thrilled with is the fuel filler is located in the fire wall area on the drivers side. It is necessary to extend the generator slide in order to access the fuel filler cap. If the hydraulic system failed completely it would create a difficult (not impossible) situation getting diesel fuel into the tank.

 

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Dave.

You said that all 4 Jack would lower but not lift.  Did you dump the air first?   

I think one big problem is that your not getting enough electric output...is your engine running, when you use the HWH System?

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Dave, Your reply is kind of confusing to me. That is not hard to do some day's. LOL

 If the hydraulic system failed completely it would create a difficult (not impossible) situation getting diesel fuel into the tank. ?

Did you mean Diesel or getting Hydraulic fluid into the system? 

Brett, did mention that some of the slides are electric and that also includes the generator slide out.

Could you post who's hydraulic system is installed in your coach.

Rich.

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Rich,

If like our 2003 Alpine 38FDDS, the diesel fuel fill is accessed by opening the "nose/generator area". It is in the upper, driver's side.

On ours, it is powered by the HWH hydraulic system.

Never had a problem, so did not look for a "work around" if the hydraulic system failed. Probably a good idea to see what would need to be disconnected/valve opened to allow manual opening.

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6 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Rich,

If like our 2003 Alpine 38FDDS, the diesel fuel fill is accessed by opening the "nose/generator area". It is in the upper, driver's side.

On ours, it is powered by the HWH hydraulic system.

Never had a problem, so did not look for a "work around" if the hydraulic system failed. Probably a good idea to see what would need to be disconnected/valve opened to allow manual opening.

Rich, Wolfe 10, actually it’s quite easy to open the generator slide out in order access the fuel filler cap. Simply locate the correct solenoid valve for generator slide. It is one of several solenoids on the valvebody. The four large solenoids are for the individual leveling jacks. 

There is only four solenoids for each of the four  jacks. A second solenoid for each Jack  is unnecessary because the retraction of each Jack is accomplished by the two return springs located on each Jack.

that being said,,, the room slide out and generator slide out are both extended and retracted under pressure. There is a separate solenoid for both directions. On the end of each solenoid in the center is a 1/4” nut. First confirm which two are related to either the room slide or generator slide (which ever you are having trouble with) then turn the 1/4” valve nut counter clockwise to manually open the hydraulic flow. This allows the cylinders to move in and out freely without hydraulic pressure. 

The generator slide was easy to manually open the 6” necessary to add diesel fuel. It did not want to open beyond 1foot by hand so I simply rolled the coach at 5 MPH and depressed the brake Quickly ,,,the forward momentum and sudden stop caused the generator slide to fully open , about 3 feet. Closing was easy to simply push back closed. It’s important to close those little 1/4” valves,,,this creates the “hydraulic lock” necessary to prevent the slide from re-opening. 

There is also a manual winch with strap and hook located just under the coach next to the generator  for closing and keeping the slide closed. Same is true for the room slide.

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6 hours ago, DickandLois said:

Dave, Your reply is kind of confusing to me. That is not hard to do some day's. LOL

 If the hydraulic system failed completely it would create a difficult (not impossible) situation getting diesel fuel into the tank. ?

Did you mean Diesel or getting Hydraulic fluid into the system? 

Brett, did mention that some of the slides are electric and that also includes the generator slide out.

Could you post who's hydraulic system is installed in your coach.

Rich.

Rich the front room slide is hydraulic as is the generator slide and of course the leveling jacks. 

My hydraulic system is an HWH system 

The bedroom slide is electric

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7 hours ago, manholt said:

Dave.

You said that all 4 Jack would lower but not lift.  Did you dump the air first?   

I think one big problem is that your not getting enough electric output...is your engine running, when you use the HWH System?

Hi,

thats correct, all four jacks extend and makes contact with the ground however will only lift the coach at most 1/4”. And room slide barely moves.

yes indeed the HWH system automatically dumps the air and this portion is working correctly, in fact I crushed my wash bucket in the process because I placed it just under the side.

there is also a manual air dump button on the panel. 

The manufacturer recommends to use the leveling system with the Engine OFF due to vibrations causing issues with the leveling sensor. 

 But I’m right with you on this point ,,,,,,I tried the system anyway with the engine running to rule out low electrical input power

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14 hours ago, DickandLois said:

Dave,

With You being familiar with hydraulic operation, the common operating pressure for the jack and slide systems is 3000 lbs. when working properly. The common current requirement is 20 amps. Have you checked the wiring for the pump and solenoids for loose or corroded connections?

The hydraulic manifold has 3 or 4 solenoids for the jacks and one for each slid out. 

Who's leveling and slide system is installed on your coach ?

Rich.

Rich, I believe I have checked all the electrical connections , perhaps there is one hiding from me. 

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3 hours ago, killackeyptrcorp said:

11.0 -12.2 VDC at the pump motor relays during pump “ON”. 12.7 - 13.9 VDC when pump motor is off.

The HWH manual recommends either be connected to shore power or have the genset or engine running. Voltage and amperes are quite important to proper operation. I bookmarked that webpage on all my internet devices, it answers practically every question a MH owner could ask. When I extend my jacks with engine running, I notice the interior lights dim for a split-second when first engaging the switch.

An aside, if you click the link in item 116, you open their technical sections page, which contains a wealth of information.

JIC, I have a contact at HWH if the problems get ugly.

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