Bumper To Bumper Warranty Possible From RV Company?

[tireman9]

Over the past years we have seen what happened to "Detroit" when the improved quality" of cars from Japan came to America. More recently we see that vehicles from Korea offer 5/50,000 to 10/100 warranty with most of the coverage 100% bumper to bumper which means almost no exclusions except a few wear parts.

Even tires are available with warranties three to four times longer than the RV they came mounted on.

When I bought our last new coach in 2008 we were offered an "extended warranty" but after reading the fine print I turned it down because there were more items excluded than included.

IMO if a company can't offer a basic 100% B2B warranty for at least 12 months as part of the basic deal, they are signaling that they know they are selling a unit that they know will probably have expensive failures.

And if you can't even buy a 3 year 100% B2B policy at extra cost then even the insurance company know the word "Quality" is not in the RV industry vocabulary.

Am I wrong?

Is there an RV company they can match even half the quality of a $15,000 car from Korea on a $50,000 or $100,000 RV built in America by American workers, based on length of coverage for the entire vehicle?

[markstella]

Tireman,

Considering what we shell out for these units it is shameful that they don't have more confidence in their products. I just experienced not being able to get a replacement control board for my electric jacks that are 7 years old. Manufacture stated that it is discontinued, my surmise is that they knew it was poorly designed in the first place.

Car manufactures have to be able to supply replacement parts for ten years after the manufacture date, why not the RV manufactures? When asked what my options where, seeing that a 40ft coach needs to be level, they replied, we can sell you a new set of jacks with a new control board! They know they have us!

[thestoloffs]

The fundamental problem with RV OEM's offering a "bumper to bumper" warranty equivalent to the auto manufacturers is that autos don't contain a house. Remember, an RV is a house mounted on a vehicle chassis!

An RV manufacturer is both a manufacturer & an installer: They are installing a number of household-grade appliances (stove, microwave, refrigerator, smoke detectors, etc.) as well as a number of RV-grade appliances (heater, A/C, CO & propane alarms, convertor/charger/inverter, etc.).

Because they're not manufacturing these items the way the RV OEM builds the coach body, they can't & won't be held responsible for repairing or replacing these components.

Therefore, they can (& occasionally do) offer a "bumper to bumper" warranty on the coach body-- but, for their installed components, all they can do is pass on their OEM's own warranty!

For example, my OEM -- Born Free -- does offer a 3 year unlimited mileage "b to b" warranty. Their Customer Service manager does the best he can to assist on any component problems, but ultimately, it's the component OEM who is responsible. Born Free will accept and handle any issues on how they installed those components.

[wildebill308]

I have been one who advocates being self insured. Put what they charge for that insurance policy in the bank so you can fix any small problem.

If you don't have any big problems you will have money left over.

Bill

[wolfe10]

Basic fact of business: Extended service policy providers are NOT in business to pay out more than they take in! As Bill said, if you can stand the risk, statistics are in your favor to have a fatter wallet if you do not buy them. Particularly true if you do your own maintenance.

[gitpicker42]

I had a similar problem with hydraulic system. Pump went out and to get a replacement thru Monaco, we had to send picture for them to know was they piece-milled together at the factory.

Since then, I had to replace the complete system with one built in China. Now at less than a year old, it too is developing leaks. For each time I tried to claim something on my extended warranty, there was a small, but effective, clause of why part or failure was not covered.

When I tried to argue my side, I found that claims were covered through an arbitrator, not the actual company. They made money on how much they saved the parent company. Never again will I be stupid enough to fall for the warranty/extended warranty sales pitch, and neither should anyone else.

[tireman9]

The fundamental problem with RV OEM's offering a "bumper to bumper" warranty equivalent to the auto manufacturers is that autos don't contain a house. Remember, an RV is a house mounted on a vehicle chassis!

An RV manufacturer is both a manufacturer & an installer: They are installing a number of household-grade appliances (stove, microwave, refrigerator, smoke detectors, etc.) as well as a number of RV-grade appliances (heater, A/C, CO & propane alarms, convertor/charger/inverter, etc.).

Because they're not manufacturing these items the way the RV OEM builds the coach body, they can't & won't be held responsible for repairing or replacing these components.

Therefore, they can (& occasionally do) offer a "bumper to bumper" warranty on the coach body-- but, for their installed components, all they can do is pass on their OEM's own warranty!

For example, my OEM -- Born Free -- does offer a 3 year unlimited mileage "b to b" warranty. Their Customer Service manager does the best he can to assist on any component problems, but ultimately, it's the component OEM who is responsible. Born Free will accept and handle any issues on how they installed those components.

I hear the excuse but based on personal experience working as a QA rep of a supplier to a number of car companies the reality is that the RV company does have some leverage with the suppliers of major components. They also have 100% responsibility for some parts of the "coach" where there is IMO absolutely no excuse other than they know they do sloppy work and don't want to be held accountable for it.

Lets look at the 12v wiring. This is all installed by the RV company in their assy line and connects the house battery to various components such as the Converter/inverter, water pump, and interior lighting etc. Clearly 12v wiring and connectors are mature products in the auto industry with most of that industry offering 100% coverage of the wiring and the connection to components for 3 to 5 years. Now if Born Free offers 3 years coverage I say good for them. My question remains for all the remaining RV companies. Why aren't they willing to stand behind the work on the 12v wiring their employees do as they assemble an RV?

I understand that the companies offering "Extended Warranties" are in the business of making money. Clearly they are not going to offer coverage on systems that they expect to fail based on claims history. The refusal of apparently all these companies to offer meaningful extended coverage without a long list of exclusions sends the message that confirms my belief that the output of the RV workers and companies is significantly worse than in the auto industry.

Regarding components supplied to the RV "assemblers" Yes currently many of these components have their own warranty coverage. Some for 12 months, some for 24 and a few for 36 months. But it is possible for the RV company to "raise the bar" by informing the component suppliers that they need to step up and offer better quality components with longer warranties if they want to sell to the RV company. This is how it works in the auto industry where over the past few years various car companies have included every component including tires under their umbrella warranty. I can attest to the fact that a tire with a manufacturing defect that is "adjusted" under warranty by the car dealership to the customer if confirmed to have a defect is replaced by the tire company along with appropriate costs associated with the adjustment. These "warranty costs" are something tire companies really try to avoid and have gone to significant effort to try and eliminate any defective tire from leaving the tire plant.

Born Free claims "Highest Quality, Best Built" and with a 3 year warranty they clearly are industry leaders. Now do you think that the Born Free RV company is absorbing all costs associated with component failures or do you think it more likely that any warranty costs are passed back to the component supplier? If Born Free can do that they why can't much larger RV companies with significantly loarger purchasing power do the same?

The list screw-ups I have personally observed in RVs is long and I have evidence of things such as bare electrically hot wiring, paint cans left rolling around under the bathroom floor, water pumps in contact with wood frame members which turn the coach into an echo chamber. electricians tape being used to secure water fittings. openings in interior body work being bashed with a hammer rather than cut with a hole saw. bad and broken welds on exhaust system hangers, misaligned holding tank lines that result in valves being broken, the use of admittedly defective graphics that resulted in the necessity of a re-paint of the side of an RV at owners expense, broken 12v ground strap connectors, unit being sold with front end alignment problems resulting in abnormal tire wear, and corrosion of all brake lights due to failure to tighten screws. Just how are these defects excusable and not the responsibility of the RV company?

Maybe while at some future RV show I will check with some of the various suppliers there and ask the length of their warranty and if it isn't 3 years then I might follow up with a question about how they feel about selling a product that they themselves expect to fail before the "new wears off".

[jleamont]

Tireman9, well said and I agree.

I am sure Born Free is holding their vendors feet to the fire, most likely they are recouping some labor back as well. They obviously care about their customer's enough to staff accordingly to handle such a task.

[mpierce]

Yes, the companies could offer better quality in the MH's, and RV's. Some do much better than others. But, they then COST MUCH MORE, and the vast majority of people buy by price.

I have stood in campgrounds with owners who are lamenting the poor quality and problems they are having with a new, or near new, RV. In almost the next breath, they are bragging about how cheaply they bought it!

You can buy cheap, or you can buy quality, but it is almost impossible to get both in one package.

When offered a 38'MH at $90k, or a 38"MH at $150k, the vast majority buy the cheaper one. Buyers are voting with their $, and the manufacturers are responding to that voting.

It is the main reason I went with a 25 year old Bluebird. I wanted quality, but could not afford new quality! So, bought old quality, and put some money away for repairs. Still loving my decision.

Most people want "new", and glitz. And CHEAP!

[thestoloffs]

I think I'm being slightly misunderstood in my comments on Born Free's "Bumper to Bumper" 3 year coverage.

Installed appliances & RV components (LP, CO & smoke detectors, TV antennas, etc.) are only covered by the component OEM's warranty, not by Born Free. Their Customer Service manager, who has been there seemingly forever and therefore has heard almost every problem possible, will offer his advice only.

{promo on}

Why can Born Free offer such a superior warranty on their construction & assembly? I can suggest 2 major reasons:

1. Between their consumer RV product line and their custom commercial vehicle business (http://www.dodgenmobiletech.com/), they DO maintain tight QC on their components and materials. They have their own fiberglass shop, because they build each unit's body by attaching end caps to whatever length side walls and ceiling are needed. Similarly, they have their own cabinetry shop, using a CNC-controlled router to adhere to a CAD/CAM designed customizable floor plan, and even their own sewing shop, internally producing their own cushions and draperies.
   
   More importantly, every component used in the assembly process is selected to meet their commercial customers' requirements -- including GSA &/or MILSPEC. It doesn't make sense to them to use 2 different grades of materials, since the same teams may be assembling a consumer RV one month and a commercial unit the next. (Less parts inventory and less training required.)
   
2. IMHO, the real secret is their assembly system. Rather than using an assembly line process, each unit is assembled by its own team of 4 people, who perform all the assembly (body, cabinetry, electrical, plumbing, etc.). They remain dedicated to that vehicle until it passes final testing (including a pressurized water leak test), and then they sign a sheet that goes with the vehicle.
   (http://www.dodgenmobiletech.com/#!factory-tour/c1ur3 for a Factory Tour)
   
   Then, for each calendar quarter that there are ZERO warranty issues on that vehicle, each member of the team receives a bonus payment! So, there's a built-in incentive to build every unit properly the first time. Smart!

Until very recently, Dodgen Industries / Born Free has been a privately owned business that is the second-largest employer in a small Iowa town. Most employees have been there for one decade; many for two decades or longer. In fact, there is often a waiting list for hiring, because it's such a popular employer. That kind of loyalty & pride is difficult to find in today's market.

But, that's also why Born Free is considered to be one of the more pricier products! I guess such quality costs!

{promo off -- I'm just another proud owner.}

I agree with Tireman9 that RV builders should seek to hold their component suppliers' feet to the fire on product quality. But, compared to the volumes of units built by the auto industry, the entire output of the RV industry is almost a rounding error!

Many RV components are unique to this industry, or are, at best, also suited for marine usage. That's probably why there's a consolidation occurring in their suppliers these days (e.g., Atwood, Lippert, etc.).

And, don't get me started on the installation of residential-grade appliances! Do you really expect that they can survive the vibration, etc. of RV'ing? They just aren't built to those specs.

[tireman9]

I understand the desire to keep initial price low but why can't I get more than 12 months coverage, which in reality is more like 5 or 6 months as I do not full time it.

I would think that if an RV dealership in cooperation with one of the brands they sell offered say a $500 - $1,000 "Tune-Up package once a year which would extend the B2B warranty for another year, there would be some who would buy the program. Obviously a 22' gas Class-C would be less expensive than a 40' diesel pusher but you get the idea.

You can do a fare amount of PM for $500 and this would keep the dealership staff busy in the slow months. Some customers would be happier and I for one would be more inclined to pay for this rather than some extended service contract that only covers the generator but not the wires that connect to the generator. The water pump but none of the water lines, The Refrigerator but none of the propaine or electrical connections to it etc etc.

This would also get the customer back into the dealership and who knows maybe even build some customer loyalty. With the proper PM I would also think most components would last longer so there would even be lower warranty costs to component suppliers.

[Cookie]

When offered a 38'MH at $90k, or a 38"MH at $150k, the vast majority buy the cheaper one. Buyers are voting with their $, and the manufacturers are responding to that voting.

In your example, you can pay for a LOT of repairs with $60,000.

[HAPPY HOBOS]

Our last RV was a 2008 Forest River 25 ft 5th wheel.  When We got it home I removed all of the interior shielding for components, to gain wasted space in storage compartments.  What I saw when I opened those areas up would have changed my mind on the purchase.  The workman ship was so sloppy behind those panels it was a red flag for quality, supervision of the assembly line and pride of workmanship at the individual level.  Electrical wiring was a tangled unsecured mess with wiring for multiple components crisscrossed and intermingled with pluming lines and fixtures.  Heating ducts were not logically secured.  Some of this I was able to remedy with appropriate tie-ties and brackets, but resolving the crisscrossed components would have required disconnecting systems and rerouting them.  This was one of the factors I took a hard look at when shopping for our first class A coach.  Neat and properly secured components and wiring behind any decorative panels.

 

What other ideas have you used to detect basic quality in construction of RV's that you have purchased?

Craig & Jane

FMCA# 52319

[jleamont]

Craig and Jane, Welcome to the FMCA forum! Always glad to see new members.

For us this is our 2nd motorhome, it was a live and learn type of adventure with the first one. The second unit......I will say we shopped for a while and were very disappointed! I became so disgusted with the condition of used coaches and the condition the dealer was willing to show them in. I asked my wife (not working at the time) to run and look, if it passes her white glove test I will go and look. I opened cabinets, pushed against walls in and out, looked at the roof and condition of sealant (if it looked new I was on the opposing side looking for signs of a leak) once I realized the walls were real solid wood, and didn't budge I was happy). I also looked under the coach at the chassis construction and design, how wiring was routed and secured, tested the coolant to make sure it was properly serviced, smelled the fluids to see if something was off, looked for signs of oil leaks that had been wiped off. I crawled all over the coach for at least 4 hours in a jump suite. Made sure everything worked, then drove it. Surprisingly the dealer (small mom and pop dealership) were ok with all of it. I think they were happy to get our old coach on trade after seeing how particular I was. I identified a few problems, they paid to resolve and I asked them for a 30 day internal warranty which they agreed to and we bought it.

That was the 2nd time we bought a coach from a small dealer, both times they were great to work with, very personable.

We looked at new coaches also, as we were so disgusted with the overall experience of the used market. Believe me I did the same inspection with the new ones honestly it took less time to see something horrifying and walk away onto the next manufacture for more disappointment. After six manufactures and their new unit inspections a few upset salespeople, I told her we are buying an old bus (Silver Eagle was one I always admired) and we are going to do a conversion.

The used ones had issues with quality of construction(depending on the manufacture) and previous owner issues i.e. cleanliness and maintenance and the new ones were absolute junk! Wiring laying all over the place out of loom, not secured, plumbing was so flimsy you could squeeze a drain pipe and crush it with bare hands, screws missing, slides binding and the materials used were low budget. You can really feel out a coach manufacture after you look one over that has bounced up and down the highway for a few thousand miles and see what it looks like now. The new ones couldn't make it from manufacturing to the dealer without a problem, that has to say something for the quality .

She recalled a place 20 minutes from home that had a Prevost and Newell parked on their lot (not an RV dealer rather a used car lot that also would, on occasion sell a RV) a few months back and decided to go up and talk to them. Low and behold that was where we found the Imperial, at the time it was our coach and a Travel trailer were all they had in the way of RV's and it had been the first Monaco product I looked at used.

I will say after that experience the next go round I am not looking forward to. I think our next coach will be a top end unit (Foretravel, Newell, Prevost) older of course. I prefer pre emissions engines, as I am in the Diesel repair business now and I want nothing to do with the problems and expenses of the new Diesel technology.

[hermanmullins]

Joe ,

When I looked in the front electrical on our Dynasty the first time I was amazed.  The wiring was beautiful, perfectly laid out, I was in awe.  Then one day I had to open the inspection panel on top of the dash. What a mess. I think, to make the job easier they made all wires at lest 3 feet longer than needed and when done cramed it all in and covered it up.

Still love the coach. It is ole school. 

Herman 

[jleamont]

Herman, ours is the same, true workmanship. I showed Kay when we met up and he was surprised how nice the electrical is laid out with a plastic schematic riveted to the doors in both side compartments also. I love the old school simple way also.

[brocki]

Yaa' know guys and gals, There seems to be something that is overlooked here.  For all normal purposes, these motor homes we drive are made on an assembly line.  Given the complexity of these beasts, to me it seem impossible to believe the manufactures are willing to slow down the line enough to do it right the first time.  It just ain't gonna' happen.  As was earlier said, we tend to vote with our wallets and until we are willing to pay for those units to be built the way we think they should be.......................Now I admit I'm not as particular as perhaps some of you are, but my wife and I target 5 year old units to be a good cross between having the bugs worked out and not "used up"  We have had good luck so far.  We love our '07 Phaeton.

[manholt]

Like Joe, my next coach will be a Prevost or Newell, most I'm looking at in Newell is 12 years old...Prevost up to 17 years.  You can always add slide out's on a non-slide and remodel for a fraction of what a new DP 40+ anything will cost !  I'm looking at 2 coaches currently for $225,000 and $235,000 both have 2 slide outs...mine is worth around $220,000 currently!   That leaves a lot of wiggle room...I don't worry about mileage on a DP as long as it has a service record.

Carl