Biodiesel B18-B20

[wayne77590]

On our way home this week I stopped on I-10 in Schulenburg, TX. for diesel. When I got out of the coach and looked at the pump it said B20 biodiesel.  I decided to go to another station and that station was running B18 biodiesel. I asked a trucker next to me if he knew where I could get Diesel #2 without Bio, or just B5 and he said that all the stations now are running up to B20.  I needed fuel an put in $50 to get us home.  Glad I did as it took 7 hours to go 205 miles. I-10 was closed further down the road and the detour was US-90 with stop signs and traffic lights that backed up I-10 for miles behind us.

Anyhow, what's the take on Biodiesel, B20 or less.

[wolfe10]

Wayne,

This is really a nebulous issue.

I doubt 20% of the signs or 10% of employees REALLY know the B content of the last tanker if fuel they received.

In many cases (excluding states where Bio content is "legislated") could be written-- maximum of ........

We have had some petroleum engineers on here and on the Diesel RV Club Forum and the answer seems to come up (in the absence of legislature mandated bio) it depends on the commodity price of bio vs dino diesel at the time of the order.

I have NO first hand info on this topic, but, like you would sure prefer to stay away from Biodiesel, particularly when getting ready to store the coach.

Those with first hand knowledge PLEASE RESPOND!

[BillAdams]

The only first hand knowledge I have is when Janet and I were doing work for Willie Nelson.  He converted is Prevost to 100% bio-diesel but had to replace every fuel line and, for an extended period of time, had to change the fuel filters regularly as this blend "cleaned" the tanks and clogged the filters.  Once it was all cleaned out he had no problems and standing beside his coach while the generator was running just made you hungry as it smelled like someone cooking French Fries....I am not kidding....It's really just corn oil and it smelled yummy!

[wildebill308]

 Bill, I have hear that too-- that it will break loose all the crud in the tanks and lines and cause you to change filters often till it is clean. I have not been brave enough to try it. The highest percentage I have seen on a pump was 50% in Missoula Montana. 

Bill

[manholt]

My best friend, Carl Hill Jr. is a retired chemical engineer, he was hired by University of Houston as a consultant to work with Chevron, Shell, Exxon and BP, to come up with a economical way to make BIO out of Hydrangea and other organic plants and incorporate same into a dino mix.  The project was abandoned about 4 years ago, after spending untold millions, not because they failed, but it would cost the consumer around $12-15 per gal. at the pump!

Over time, B-15 and above will destroy, fuel lines and seals.  Tom Butler, posted an in depth study on BIO Diesel and it's affect on engines in 2014 on this forum. 

About 10 years ago, Spain was successful in producing B-100 economically, however, the report stated that it ate everything, non metal in the engines. Car, truck, etc. There is also the matter of lubrication, you don't get that from BIO...all you really obtain is stretching out our known oil reserve, at the cost of increased prices, at all levels from fuel to food.  In regards to Mr. Nelson's coach, you can only grow so much corn, so the choice is...do you want to drive it or eat it?  Either way, it's not economical. 

Carl

 

[hermanmullins]

Well said Carl, short, sweet and easy to understand.

 

Herman

[BillAdams]

3 hours ago, Manholt said:

My best friend, Carl Hill Jr. is a retired chemical engineer, he was hired by University of Houston as a consultant to work with Chevron, Shell, Exxon and BP, to come up with a economical way to make BIO out of Hydrangea and other organic plants and incorporate same into a dino mix.  The project was abandoned about 4 years ago, after spending untold millions, not because they failed, but it would cost the consumer around $12-15 per gal. at the pump!

Over time, B-15 and above will destroy, fuel lines and seals.  Tom Butler, posted an in depth study on BIO Diesel and it's affect on engines in 2014 on this forum. 

About 10 years ago, Spain was successful in producing B-100 economically, however, the report stated that it ate everything, non metal in the engines. Car, truck, etc. There is also the matter of lubrication, you don't get that from BIO...all you really obtain is stretching out our known oil reserve, at the cost of increased prices, at all levels from fuel to food.  In regards to Mr. Nelson's coach, you can only grow so much corn, so the choice is...do you want to drive it or eat it?  Either way, it's not economical. 

Carl

 

We can also only pump so much oil.  The supply is finite and will run out.  Not soon, but it will run out.  Your grand kids or maybe their grand kids are going to have to learn to live without oil.  Something must be done.  Just because corn might not be the answer does not mean that a replacement fuel, BIO or otherwise, needs to be pursued.

[jleamont]

When I worked for a public utility we ran B20, (so the VP could go on TV and tell the public how they were Green) the only issues were replacing fuel filters every other week and frequent regenerations, and I mean frequent, i.e pull over two times in 8 hours for a parked regen, clogged EGR systems. Now the bio they bought wasn't certified it was #2 diesel with used filtered cooking oil poured on top in the tank trailer driven from Philadelphia to the suburbs and dropped into our tanks. The road trip was supposed to mix it . Worked ok in the summer in the winter the shops were really busy  then we changed the fuel filters every other day, usually on the side of the road. In the end not real green.

we run b40 home heating oil at home, it's certified and blended properly, no issues after the heating oil co got our boiler dialed in, actually burns hotter.

I believe we need to develop an alternative fuel but it has to be cost effective and work properly, so far there's nothing out there...in my opinion.

[manholt]

BillA.  By the time your Grand kids grow up, there will not be any need for oil or BIO!  RV's, trucks of any kind, cars, planes, ships and trains, as we know it today will probably not exist...it will likely be driven by a computerized robot or chip, using Solar, Wind and +/- magnetics.  That technology is already coming or is here now. 

All BIO is to me, in my humble opinion, is a "desperation by environmentalists" to continue making a living!  There will be some left in the future that will be, anti computers or chips, or robotics, or Solar, Wind and every dang thing that might take $$$ out of their hands!  Sorry, some of them are good, most are not and I have met my fair share when I was working as a Petroleum Engineer Consultant in Exploration World wide that had absolutely no clue about oil, drilling or production, but they sure sounded good on CNN !

Joe.  Good Point.

Carl

[blakeloke]

This is a really good discussion.  Deb and I are noticing more and more truck stops offering bio blends in the B20 range.  I'm no expert and have only researched mildly but have read what Carl states above with respect to degradation of fuel lines and seals if the component does not have the right type of elastomers.

So, at this point we take a pass at bio blends and search for true #2.  Most recent was our last fuel ups in Tucson and Bakersfield.  Actually, the truck stop in Tucson gave us some literature on bio-blends that indicated a customer complained he had purchased some "dirty" product at their islands which caused a degradation of performance due to clogged filters.  They sent the fuel filter for testing and the lab results showed the clogging was due to constituents commonly found in biodiesel.  This particular truck stop prides themselves in offering traditional diesel and welcomes RV'rs at their islands and scales!

So far.....it hasn't been a struggle finding traditional diesel.  We just do a google search and call ahead.

Blake

[gorm50]

Experienced the SAME warning stickers on pumps at Murphy Oil USA returning to MI from FL this spring.  Luckily, the content was low as I experienced NO problems.  I own a 99 Discovery with a Cummins ISB 275, that per Cummins, will ONLY tolerate up to 5% biodiesel.  Many a truck owner will tell of horror stories about biodiesel cleansing their fuel system, clogging their filters and forcing them to the side of the road.  I now carry a spare canister fuel filter and jug of fossil diesel to fill new filter, if necessary. 

While I didn't do a lot of research on engines outside my need, I understand the EPA set standards for diesel engine manufactured produced in 2002 and again in 2007+. 

Am fortunate that in MI supply is readily available without biodiesel.  Am told Biodiesel gels and so it is NOT as common in northern states. Am also told there are tax incentives to use bio plus bio is cheaper than fossil fuel so there are incentives to convert to bio for the refiner / retailer. 

I have always been told to store my coach with a full tank.  I use Sta Bil Diesel to extend its storage life BUT biodiesel does NOT store well, ie NMT 3 months, so storage in MI, even with StaBil, is NOT feasible. 

In that I am attending the Balloon Fiesta in Albuquerque I need assurance of a readily available supply of PURE fossil fuel - so I encounter NO problems on my trip. 

In MI, Meijer boasts all their diesel is Premium and contains NO biodiesel. All their stations are supplied, under contract, by Brenner Oil.  Flying J / Pilot's website, under the "Fuel Prices" tab displays bio content to the screen's far right by station (B0 to B20).  In that FJ/Pilot BLEND their own bio "on site"  the mix can change daily so it is recommended you CALL the station before filling at that site.  In that I have found Murphy Oil USA (displays on sticker on every pump contain MAY contain up to 20% biodiesel) diesel prices are considerably less than the majors I called them to help me plot a route to Albuquerque biodiesel FREE.  Filled with Meijer premium I can get thru IL but will need a fill along my route thru MO, OK and NM (55 to 44 to 40) I inquired of their Customer Service (Angela at 870-875-7600) who connected me with Pat Kennedy who researched my inquiry and assured me their stations along my route in MO, OK and NM contained NMT 5% biodiesel.  Must add that everyone I talked to at Murphy Oil USA was super nice, empathetic, and more than willing to help me!! 

Unable to quote a source but was told it is tough finding biodiesel free fuel in TX and IL. 

Given this growing problem with biodiesel and the problems it presents I'd sure like to see the Major suppliers ensure station staff is informed to answer inquiries,update their websites to display biodiesel content by state, station along with a site phone number so we can stage our fill ups, etc.  This strikes me as a terrific project for FMCA, Good Sam, Passport, etc as I expect many RVers are unaware of the risks, the problems using this corrosive additive in older diesel coaches.  They cannot ONLY inform on their websites, their periodicals, newsletters, etc but they can work with suppliers to afford us RVers informed choices. 

Safe and problem free travels to you all!!

Gorm50, FMCA 182005, 1999 Discovery powered by a Cummins 5.9 -275hp ISB

[manholt]

Gorm50.  I can assure you, I have not had any problems getting 95-100% Diesel in my home State of Texas!  My last fill up was in Oklahoma yesterday, 80 gal. of 100%!  I have found in the last 4 years, Country wide, that Pilot, FJ and Loves have 15-20% BIO and that is another reason why I avoid them...the other reason has to be the high fuel prices!  I know, you can get 8cents to 10cents off, but that is a small consolation for buying at a truck stop a mile up the road for 20 to 30 cents per gal cheaper and pure diesel...have only once had a problem with water in fuel...from Pilot in Mobile, Alabama!  I have the luxury off a 150 gal tank, so I can pick and chose.

Carl 

[gorm50]

Manholt, that is great news for Texans!! Thank you!

I have done a lot of research, but I must admit I encounter FEW RVers who have had clogged fuel filter problems. Most were truckers.  ON a post earlier this spring, I got ONLY one response so I infer the interest or AWARENESS is small.  STILL, this is an issue, a risk that should be EXPOSED as EVERY coach that has been running PURE fossil fuel and then encounters B20 will suffer the cleansing action to their fuel system. I have NO IDEA how long a buildup takes OR how quickly higher concentrations of biodiesel cleanse the tank, lines and plug the filters.  This may just be a clogged fuel filter problem but I suspect if the owner is unaware of WHY his engine stopped running, just KNOWING the risks, KNOWING enough to ASK suppliers,  PLANNING ahead and carrying extra fuel filters, etc goes a long way in educating, preparing ALL diesel owners, so they can AVOID or MINIMIZE the inconvenience!!

During my research, I learned many retailers KNEW only that the tanker that supplied their pumps originated at "X" refinery and they got in their load whatever the refinery was distributing.  That is TOO PASSIVE a response!!.  We NEED engaged, informed suppliers that can HELP us make informed choices and consciously AVOID KNOWN problems CREATED by biodiesel fuels.

We constitute the buying public. I contend ALL diesel powered RVs "could" be affected.  Personally, I'd like all informed so they can HELP us make informed buying choices. 

I assure you the crazed Environmentalists at EPA could give a CRAP as to the adverse impact of biodiesel and ethanol, ie inconvenience and costs of delays, fuel filters, damaged hoses and seals, premature engine failure, etc.      These boneheads wanted 15% ethanol, even AFTER all studies CLEARLY demonstrated how COST INEFFECTIVE ethanol is!!

Gorm50

[wayne77590]

Thanks to everyone for the posts.  I am glad I was aware to see the sign (little sticker near the pump).  I will also try and avoid anything over 5%.  It may become more difficult as the "greenies" get their way.

[wildebill308]

I just want to comment on the future of oil. We are going to do the same thing we did when whaling was no longer producing enough oil to light our cities or homes. We will find another source of energy. In this case, well read the article in the link below.

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil 

Bill

[BillAdams]

10 hours ago, Manholt said:

BillA.  By the time your Grand kids grow up, there will not be any need for oil or BIO!  RV's, trucks of any kind, cars, planes, ships and trains, as we know it today will probably not exist...it will likely be driven by a computerized robot or chip, using Solar, Wind and +/- magnetics.  That technology is already coming or is here now. 

All BIO is to me, in my humble opinion, is a "desperation by environmentalists" to continue making a living!  There will be some left in the future that will be, anti computers or chips, or robotics, or Solar, Wind and every dang thing that might take $$$ out of their hands!  Sorry, some of them are good, most are not and I have met my fair share when I was working as a Petroleum Engineer Consultant in Exploration World wide that had absolutely no clue about oil, drilling or production, but they sure sounded good on CNN !

Joe.  Good Point.

Carl

Funny, that's what I was told when I was a child as well.  "Don't worry, buy the year 2000 we will all be in flying cars!"  Strangely enough, that didn't happen either!

[jleamont]

Wayne, when you get to someplace with a less bio mixture fill it up and drive. My guess at the most you will notice is a slight lack of power until your Cetane rating comes back up unless you run a fuel additive then you might not notice much. If you carry extra filters great, you just might need them. Enjoy the road!

[manholt]

Joe, I had to get, I think it was B-15, last year.  Put in 30 gal and drove to next big town, 100+ miles and got another 90 gal of pure dino. about an hour later, I got a surge of power and the coach ran smoother.

BillA.  We have flying cars, not many yet, due to cost and they are in Europe, not approved by FAA and other regulatory body's in the US.  All one has too do is open ones mind and think of what we have accomplished and still expand on that, into other applications in the past 100 years!  It is amazing.  Quantum was theoretical until the 80's, then it became reality...all we know about space, time and the universe as a whole, is changing daily now as we no longer have to take baby steps!  Sorry, my thought's ran.

Carl

[gorm50]

Just returned to MI from NM.  In that Cummins recommends NMT 5% bio for my 1999 5.9 ISB I tried to establish SAFE fuels (Diesel 1 or 2 or NMT 5% bio) along my 3000 mile round trip route.  While I was able to find PURE diesel #1 (Meijer) and diesel #2 (Some Phillips 66 and Mobil) I found the big suppliers, ie Flying J, Pilot, Love's loved to lace their fuel with bio 15-20% to increase margins, compete on price with one another. 

Depending on your engine (pre EPA directives or EPA02 or EPA07) prescribes the percent of bio your engine will "tolerate."  FACT is bio is "cheaper" than fossil so some retailers like to lace their fuel with bio.  Unfortunately for US, it is corrosive, is an inferior performer to fossil (already in 2008 EPA lowered Cetane requirements and NEVER restored same so bio just cheats us more),  stores NMT 3 months, prone to gelling faster than diesel #2 and subjects the user to the inconvenience and expense of replacing fuel filters on the road.  The corrosive agents clean your fuel system, thus increasing the likeliness of plugging your filters. 

Found Flying J / Pilot deceived me as I conducted my inquiries before my trip.  The alleged website posting of bio content (Far right on screen under Fuel Prices) may be a point in time, but was NEVER reliable. Also, Flying J / Pilot does NOT blend on site, as told.  It is ordered and mixed at the terminal, not the retail site. Talking to truckers, they complain about filter changes and low performance but clearly do NOT know with what they are fueling their trucks..  Some actually told me because the pump did NOT display the bio content they inferred it was PURE fossil #2  (WRONG!!) I found few site attendants who KNEW their bio content. Eventually I learned the ONLY way to KNOW the bio content is to review the Bill of Lading the site manager gets with EVERY diesel delivery from the terminal.  IN addition to showing all is ILSD complaint below that line it lists the diesel delivered, ie Diesel #2 or <5% bio or 15% bio up to 20% bio.  That is the ONLY way you'll know what they are pumping. Just to be sure of the BLEND, you may wish to ask to see the previous Bill of Lading, too. 

I STRONGLY recommend FMCA  publish the FACTS and impact of bio on these fuels, their risks, their lower cetane, their lower performance, their reduced filter life, their low threshold for gelling, their short storage life, etc. Same article should provide Cummins perspective, recommendations,  instruction HOW to effect a filter change on the road and avoid air in the lines which will just exacerbate the problem.  Somebody is coming out ahead pumping bio diesel and it is NOT diesel users.  The EPA is NO friend to users.  This bio fuel is inferior CRAP, that if water would be deemed illegal / fraud, but because EPA endorses it, it is seemingly OK to SCREW the consuming public!!

I am about to winterize my coach and am putting it to bed for the winter with Meijer Premium #1 diesel ($2.299) plus Sta Bil Diesel fuel stabilizer just so I don't suffer spring problems. 

[obedb]

#1 used to a kerosene equivalent widely available in bitter winter states. ND as an example. Very low cloud point.  Lower fuel mileage. Probably no Bio ( just a guess). Should be good way to winterize

[manholt]

Byron.  Another good reason to live in Texas...no winterizing required, I do use Sta bil Diesel. Sta bil gas for Jeep and MC. When I'm gone for more than a couple of weeks! 

[wildebill308]

I just use the Diesel Kleen white bottle. Hard to think about winterising when it was 90 today.

Bill

 

[manholt]

It's 74 and 37% humidity in my bay...I'm just running my fans with windows open!  Smelled a little Funky for a couple of hours. but good now...

[obedb]

Gorm50 lives in Michigan. Will winterize ours this week. I add Diesel Kleen every time I fuel. I believe in the stuff. For winter around here Howes is a favorite. Available at Walmart and all truckstops.

I had first hand experience with the additive on a very cold morning after the release of Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel. Two tanker drivers that parked overnight at the same farm I rented space to park, had quite the experience. They bought their fuel at the rack in Harrisburg that they hauled from. No additives at all but very cheap for them to use. My truck started that morning, but ran very rough. I noticed the owner of the shop I used parked next to the two tankers. He offered me a look. Both rigs looked like they had paraffin in their tanks. The tractors had to be hauled inside a building with heat because both fuel systems were a mess. I checked mine (saddle tanks) and I could see wax crystals forming in my tanks. Was offered a large bottle of Howes that I split between the two tanks, idled for about half an hour, and the rough running stopped. Diesels stop running long before the fuel gels. Wax crystals forming in tanks quickly plug up filters.

[gorm50]

Meijer claims their Premium Diesel, free of bio, offers increased power and mileage, ie up to 5%, with better lubricity than #2.  My prime motivation was to fill before winter storage, avoid the SHORT storage life (NMT 3 months) attributable to bio and resultant risk of algae formation. 

Increasingly, lubricity is a BIG issue since 2008 as ULSD, besides reducing sulfur strips the fuel of its much needed lubricants.  Bio affords users a benefit in that area.  Is anyone familiar with a LOW COST, EFFECTIVE lubricant for pre 2008 engines that reduces the wear and tear on our pumps, etc. 

 

Thank you.

Gorm50

1999 Discovery powered by 5.9 ISB Cummins