Paint Checking: 2005 Monaco Executive

[Garryrowena]

We are looking at buying a 2005 Monaco Executive and like most, we have seen the paint is checking .

Anyone have input on this matter.

[wildebill308]

Welcome to the forum and 2018. Is it the whole paint job or just the shield on the front? If it is the whole paint I would be deducting the cost of a good paint job from what they want. Or I would be looking else ware.

Bill

[manholt]

Garryrowena.  Welcome to the Forum!

As Bill asked, we need to know the location?

[jleamont]

I have it on ours, but only on the black lines. Been that way since we have owned it (almost 4 years now) and who knows how long before. I had it looked at and was told not to worry about it, its only in the paint. I can have it fixed by sanding down the black lines and having them repainted, if it gets worse ill go that route.

[Garryrowena]

4 hours ago, manholt said:

Garryrowena.  Welcome to the Forum!

As Bill asked, we need to know the location?

It's mainly the darker colors on the sides of coaches 10 plus years old . I have looked at 5 different coach manufacturers and all are doing it. And they where half a million new give or take

[tbutler]

On our coach it is the deep red accent that shows checking.  It is made worse by buffing or polishing.  It is the kind of thing that you really only see if you examine the coach up close.  The integrity of the paint isn't affected,  no peeling or discoloration shows on our coach, now 14 years in service.  The 3M coating on the front of the coach is a different story.  Our coach is in the shop right now having the entire front cap repainted.

[manholt]

Tom.

Bet that cost a bit...I'm going to have to have mine done before Summer, when I see you, let me know who is doing it.  Don't think my insurance will pay any of that.

[tbutler]

No insurance won't cover that - unless you smash into something!  I decided not to try that!  I'll wait to see the result before I make any recommendation.  Dealings with the shop have been shaky at best.  I expect to see the result in the next few days.  I'm going to stop by the shop this afternoon to see the progress. Last visit it was primed and ready for paint.

[rsbilledwards]

This is generally caused by time, on "Lacquer" finishes. It is also caused by too heavy a paint film though not likely in this case. It is a common element on Safari coach murals. In this case once the murals were painted they were then clear coated. This is a problem because the mural base color cannot be sanded for obvious reasons. Therefore, there is no mechanical bond to the substrate. It is very likely that this is the same thing on many of these coaches where the stripe was painted and the clear was applied after the application window had passed and the bond is failing. We have a saying in this industry "Paint will stick to anything for a while". If the prep is incomplete it will eventually give up. If it is fracturing...it will eventually give up and begin delaminating...yes it can take a very long time. No polishing will not have any effect on it only enhance the appearance. 

The effect can be mitagated appearance wise but not eliminated. The fractured edges roll up ever so slightly at the break, this can be sanded lightly to flatten and then re cleared. The trick is to get the new clear coat to bridge the breaks/fractures thus sealing them...takes a lot of effort. Then it can be sanded again. Then a final coat or two of clear will complete the leveling process and the fractures hidden as much as they will be. How long will it last, anybody's guess, some times a long time sometimes not. It is going to be determined by the level of deterioration of the initial clear coat. But at least now the elements are held at bay by the new coat of clear. This is not very practical for most but on a Safari with a mural which is not replaceable...

[rsbilledwards]

Tom,

This is how it should be done. I did not see your coach so do not know color scheme. But Base color is applied and a single coat of clear is applied maybe two (best) then allowed a dry time called tack free. Then it can be masked for a second color/stripe. After this is applied it too is cleared in the same manner and so forth. When the last stripe is applied and cleared, the entire assembly is cleared and sanded to remove any of the joint ridges. It is at this point that the last two coats or one very wet one, depending of course upon painter skill, is applied. Hopefully it is done skillfully enough it needs no sanding and lint is at a minimum they can walk away done, after removing the masking. 

 

I will add that all base coats have a window of time that the clear must be applied within or the base coat must be sanded and re applied. If not applied in the window but after adhesion issues may occur, ie later fracturing and long after the job is out of warranty

[dons2346]

The checking is in the gel coat, not the paint and it is most always in the darker colors. If it was paint, it would be flaking off. I have talked to a number of paint shops and all of them have different methods of repair. One is to grind out the areas of checking, put in filler and then re gel coat, then paint. Problem is the filler will eventually fall out as it is a thin layer. Next way to fix it is to reskin the entire side with new glass and paint.

I have seen the checking on all brands of coaches, Country Coach, Beaver, Monaco, Foretravel, etc. I have even seen it on trailers.

A couple of was to deal with it, one is to sell the coach and the other is to live with it.

My checking is very slight and you have to get up within two feet to see it. One estimate I had to repair it was $29,000 which ain't gonna happen. This was for a grind it out and fill in

[jleamont]

Dons, you sure about that? My friend just had his checking repaired on his Tiffin, just the paint and only on the black and charcoal gray stripes. Mine is just like yours, you have to be very close to see it.

[hermanmullins]

Tom,

Just had the front of our Monaco repaired by James at Xtreme in Nacogdoches, TX. Only cost $500.But I did have a have a BooBoo on the front end. James convinced the insurance  company that he could not match the paint with the clear coat on. Looks great.

Herman

[manholt]

I don't have cracking, just Diamond Shield.  Don't ever want DS again on anything!  If I ever get a new coach again, it will come without any 3M product on it, or I won't buy the coach!

[jleamont]

1 hour ago, manholt said:

I don't have cracking, just Diamond Shield.  Don't ever want DS again on anything!  If I ever get a new coach again, it will come without any 3M product on it, or I won't buy the coach!

YUP, same here!

[elkhartjim]

I'm amazed how many coach owners with Diamond Shield pay lots of money to have it removed and reapplied...crazy. That is the one thing I wish my motor home didn't have.

[manholt]

Between the Motor Home Industry and 3M (Collusion) ?  They started a whole, massive new industry!

[jleamont]

2 hours ago, manholt said:

Between the Motor Home Industry and 3M (Collusion) ?  They started a whole, massive new industry!

YUP, just like most, people flock to them with a wallet in hand.

[dons2346]

9 hours ago, jleamont said:

Dons, you sure about that? My friend just had his checking repaired on his Tiffin, just the paint and only on the black and charcoal gray stripes. Mine is just like yours, you have to be very close to see it.

A friend of mine has checking on the rear cap of his Monaco. We were in Mexico and he inquired of the local body shop guy about repainting to get rid of the checking. Chuey told him that yes he could repaint but it would be back in a couple of years. Now, when you get a body shop guy in Mexico say he can't fix it.......................

I had three different shops look at mine and all said it couldn't be fixed with just paint.

So, with the Tiffin, it might take a year or two to see what happens.

[rsbilledwards]

I must say after 40 years in the autobody business, Gelcoat fracturing????????????? not if it is mixed properly. If it is mixed hot then yes it can and probably will fracture. Every Fiberglass boat made in the world, the outer part you see is Gel Coat, see any fractures in them...NO and many years old. I would bet a 6 pack that you are looking at paint. To have a stripe or graphics in Gelcoat would be quite a feat knowing what I know. The physical properties make it extremely difficult. But what do I know. The industry has tricks for sure.  As for plastic filler being thin, it had better be thin or it will not last. If thin it will probably out last you.

I have said it here before that the clear bra material does not have a lifetime expectancy. It does have a life span of something around 7 years and should be removed and replaced. You are quite right no one ever told us this and we made the assumption it was for ever. It is like you oil a maintenance item. No bidy complains when the have to change oil once a year. Add that up over 7 years and see what it costs. The plastic does what it was intended to do and if removed when it should be then it would not be such a strain to accomplish the removal.  By the way I am suffering the same pain as anyone else trying to get it off. The stuff on the front of my F350 Ford is shot and ugly and still doing it's job.

 

[dons2346]

Bill, I find it interesting that according to you these checks are bad paint. Why would so many cases of "bad paint" be found on different brands of motorhomes? I would like to believe you are correct as it would save a bunch of people a bunch of money.

The worst case I have ever seen was on a high end Travel Supreme. The checking couls be seen from 20 feet away.

[manholt]

Well, what I get from this, and I don't know much about paint and clear coat, is that it's not a bad paint job, as much as it is bad timing, in the application of the clear coat.  Witch explains why, the cost of a re paint, is based upon the amount of colors you want and the design= hours of labor + the quality of the paint and clear coat = a lot of money!  A "cookie cutter coach", would not have as good a job as a "custom coach"!  I maybe wrong, but that's the impression I get.  IMHO with a low end mass produced coach, you'll get the same paint job as their high end coach, in quality....same paint shop, by the same people!  CC is also the same shop, but they are allowed the time and quality of material to get it right the first time.

If I'm wrong, please tell me!

 

[jleamont]

I found on ours, not bad paint but poor prep work from the factory. I also feel that paint not properly maintained will fail prematurely with the UV conditions they are exposed to.

[rsbilledwards]

Carl,

You hit it on the nail head. Completing quality paint work is EXPENSIVE. Not only is the time and effort expensive, the QUALITY paints and associated materials have become absurdly expensive. These materials are expensive, largely because of environmental issues and the quality of such has diminished as a result. The number of toners to match previous colors have been reduced dramatically because of the apparent unfriendlyness of the ingredients to the environment. The introduction of WATER into automotive primers and paints has lengthened the application process considerably, hence a lot of additional cost on the time side. The manufacturers of these RV vehicles so not have the same paint application systems in place as the automotive industry where the car bodies are painted completely prior to assembly. They do not have paint drying systems anywhere similar to the automotive industry. The coaches are assembled completely and then a base color applied. They are then re masked for each additional color. This could be 4 times as on my coach. It takes man hours each time. It could take a week or more for 2 or three people to accomplish this effort. I described the process further in a previous note to Tom. 

The way it is done is just like the after market repair shops have done it for the last 80 plus years. Yes now we have heated and down draft booths. These pale in comparison to the other guys. We can only force dry the water born, catalyzed paint being used today. The automotive industry shoots the car, it tack drys and then is run through an oven where the paint literally is heated to almost hot and allowed to re-flow to the finish we so admire and think is the way it should be. This completed the, primers, paint and clear coat are only 1.5 mills thick and will last in many cases 20 years + and still be nice and shiny!!!

The after market is a horse of a different color... Our paints do not reflow, air pressures used in the various paint shops to shop is different. The skill level of the painter differ from applicator to a real guy that knows the tricks and how to get out of trouble and still produce a smooth, slick, dust free paint job. On this side of the industry the clear coat must be a minimum of 2 mills thick to achieve a surface that will last 5 that's right 5 years. That said 3 mills may get better than 15 years. The problem with this is the expense of the material and the honesty of the shops to do what they say. The other issue in this picture is the unwillingness of the buying public to require quality. Instead they want price and the two do not get along. Lastly is the knowledge of the consumer is minimal and many of the shops play to that. I would venture to say that 75% of them do not do what they say they are going to do because when it is done it is bright and shiny. Who is to know what was not done. At this point reputation and the length of it is key. Did I mention additional sanding and buffing and then polishing...more time and money for quality.

I could elaborate a lot more but I hope this may draw a clearer picture . 

[kaypsmith]

12 hours ago, rsbilledwards said:

have said it here before that the clear bra material does not have a lifetime expectancy. It does have a life span of something around 7 years and should be removed and replaced. You are quite right no one ever told us this and we made the assumption it was for ever. It is like you oil a maintenance item. No bidy complains when the have to change oil once a year. Add that up over 7 years and see what it costs. The plastic does what it was intended to do and if removed when it should be then it would not be such a strain to accomplish the removal.  By the way I am suffering the same pain as anyone else trying to get it off. The stuff on the front of my F350 Ford is shot and ugly and still doing it's job.

This is why I would install a lexan or stainless steel bra rather than diamond sheild on the front of any coach. I do not like the vinyl bras because they are in direct contact with the paint surface and the movement directly against the surface will have a sandpaper effect on the paint job underneath. Also is why I decided to use vinyl instead of paint, after 7 to 10 years, just use a heat gun to remove, then re-vinyl.