Unusual tire wear

[Invent1]

The outer treads on my steer tires have apparently worn to enough to expose a different rubber compound. I wondered if anyone else has experienced this. (The rest of the tread is excellent at 13/32").
The tires are 245/70R19.5 Bridgestone R250 

I weighed each wheel, and then used the charts for air pressure for that size tire. I then increased the air pressure 10 – 15 psi over what the charts recommended but both front tires still wore much faster on the outer treads.  On the charts -- the measured weight on the front wheels (2,700 lbs) is less than where the chart begins (3640 lbs at 80 psi).

Camber and toe are good and have never changed.

The only unusual experience is that when the tires were new, we had to drive westward for 2 days with unrelenting 30 mph cross winds - that took a fair amount off the outer tread on one side of each front tire. Other than that trial, no suspension issues.

Bridgestone CS had no useful info, just said to take it to Larry, Curly and Mo at my local tire dealer for inspection.

I just wanted to make sure that what I'm seeing is not a different rubber layer just above the cord. And wanted to know if there was a particular issue with Bridgestone R250 tires.

It's interesting that the lighter colored rubber that is exposed is on the INNER portion of the outer tread, closest to where the tread is still fairly deep -- not on the outer portion of the outer tread where you'd expect the most wear.

Thanks for any thoughts on this. 
John

[huffypuff]

Wear like that is cause usually by bad shocks or ball joints and/or king pins.  

[hermanmullins]

Invent1,

Welcome to the Forum.

I was going to ask if your tires were Goodyear G 670s but I see that they are Bridgestones.

I had the same issue with that brand. As you said the alignment was spot on and no king pins issue. I always balance all my tires on the coach. With the G 670s mine continued to wear just as your has. I have since gone to Toyo Md144s and the wear is as square as you would want. 

I will have to go along with Ray, Balance. 

Are both front tires wearing the same? You might try balancing and switching sides with them. 

If it were me I would be on the look for new front tire. What are the date codes on all your tires?

Herman

[wolfe10]

Invent1,

Yes, welcome to the FMCA Forum.

Please tell us what make and model chassis you have and how many miles are on it.

Any suspension  components not original?  Any wear in the suspension?

[tireman9]

Looks like "River Wear".  Sometimes the wear pattern starts out small but if not looked at these irregular wear patterns can grow and get worse. In General as long as the tire stays in the position where the condition originated it will only get worse. The level seen in Invent1's pictures took thousands of miles to develop.

 

In the Tire Maintenance Council Condition manual they have an early life example that is identified as "Shoulder Step/Chamfer Wear Camber Wear" with the probable cause " Typical in slow wearing positions"

Picture "River wear" could also be called "Erosion/Chanel wear"  Slow wearing position with light loads and frequent turning.  The variation or scalloping seen in Invent1 picture could also have out of balance of tire/wheel/hub/brake system or improper tire/wheel assembly.

[bm02tj]

I had that happen on the two steers and  four tags  the four traction tires where still good and only two years old 

I replaced steers and had retread shop pick four tires and grind round and equal  then ran for three more years 

If in doubt  replace and keep close eye on wear be safe 

You could have tire shop trade with two rear tires 

[rayin]

When alignment was checked, hopefully they did a total alignment check.(commonly known as dog-tracking). Usually if the rear axle is out of alignment(thrust angle) your steering wheel is not level when driving straight ahead,

[Invent1]

Thank you for the well-thought replies. 

The coach is  a 30B Itasca riding on a F53 chassis. We bought it new but all the original G670 Goodyear tires had immediate problems. After re-balancing and swapping them around, the dealer finally replaced four of them.  They still cause vibrations and the front tires were destroyed with rivering at 22,000 miles. That's when I put the Bridgestones on. The rear Goodyear tires also wore out prematurely and I replaced them at 33,000 miles with Hankook AH11's.   The Hankooks have gone 30,000 miles are still in good condition (13-14/32 tread depth and worn evenly across all tires).

Suspension changes: the rear sway bar bracket rubber bushings totally disintegrated but the front are fine (must have been a different supplier). The front rubber snubbers also totally disintegrated (attached photo shows new next to old) but that has little effect because the front springs rarely bottom out. Lastly, I put air bags in the rear because of a motorcycle & rack on the back.

I've resigned myself to replacing the fronts again and will look into Toyos. It was just baffling to me that the different softer rubber substrate was showing through on the INNER portion of the outer treads when the center treads had good tread depth.

 

 

[hermanmullins]

Invent1,

Good report however some dates would be helpful. Year of the vehicle. Date when the tire were replaced. Date code on the Tires. Deep tread may look good but crazing/cracking of the side wall and between the treads are also important. With this info. we may be able to help more.

Herman

[tireman9]

Would help to provide a list of odometer miles and actions taken  Example

0 Bought new

(ODO) 1,000 changed OE Goodyear tires rebalanced

(ODO) 2,000 Fronts removed for "Rivering"  Bridgestone applied

(ODO) 2,500  Front axle scale weight 9000  Rear 16,000#

(ODO)  ? First signs of Rivering on Bridgestone

(ODO)52,000  Bridgestones show rivering as seen in pictures

(ODO) 56,000  Motorcycle rack added to rear. Front axle scale weight  8,000   Rear axle weight 17,000# with motorcycle on rack

 

Rear wear is separate issue so that may confuse the question on the front Rivering. Addition of motorcycle would unload front tires so the scale numbers are important if we want to know the contributing factors to the rivering. Did you note the comments on loading being a contributor to the Rivering?  Also the level seen in the pictures thkes thousands of miles to get that bad. Corrective action (tire rotation F > Rear) should have been taken earlier.  Normally class-A tires do not need rotation "Unless there are irregular wear conditions observed" per GY as I recall.

 

[kaypsmith]

In addition to Tireman9's  request, I would like to know how heavy is the motorcycle, and how often does it ride on the back of the coach?

[rayin]

That last bit of information; the motorcycle rack + motorcycle weight,  changes almost everyone's advice. That is an important factor to know.

It also makes knowing 4-corner weights vital, hows that coming along?

 

[richard5933]

2 hours ago, Invent1 said:

Thank you for the well-thought replies. 

The coach is  a 30B Itasca riding on a F53 chassis. We bought it new but all the original G670 Goodyear tires had immediate problems. After re-balancing and swapping them around, the dealer finally replaced four of them.  They still cause vibrations and the front tires were destroyed with rivering at 22,000 miles. That's when I put the Bridgestones on. The rear Goodyear tires also wore out prematurely and I replaced them at 33,000 miles with Hankook AH11's.   The Hankooks have gone 30,000 miles are still in good condition (13-14/32 tread depth and worn evenly across all tires).

Suspension changes: the rear sway bar bracket rubber bushings totally disintegrated but the front are fine (must have been a different supplier). The front rubber snubbers also totally disintegrated (attached photo shows new next to old) but that has little effect because the front springs rarely bottom out. Lastly, I put air bags in the rear because of a motorcycle & rack on the back.

I've resigned myself to replacing the fronts again and will look into Toyos. It was just baffling to me that the different softer rubber substrate was showing through on the INNER portion of the outer treads when the center treads had good tread depth.

You've already put two set of tires on the front, and now are getting ready for a third set. Really sounds like changing tire brands isn't the solution you are looking for, as any of these brands should be up to the task.

We had a 1974 Pontiac station wagon when I was in high school. It went through front tires like they were made of tissue paper from day one. We had multiple alignments done at the dealer and at a few local shops, but the problem persisted. I took the car on a cross-country trip a few years into this and had a tire problem. It was a very observant tire tech that noticed one of the steering linkages didn't look right. Turns out we had been driving with a bent linkage since the car was new, and while it didn't stop the alignment shops from doing an alignment, it prevented the alignment from being able to fix the problem. Not exactly sure what the part was, but once the shop changed it we never had an issue with tire wear again.

My point? Have that front end checked with a fresh set of eyes. Have them inspect the entire front end with bright lights and a strong set of hands, everything from shocks to spring mounts to the front frame. Lots of things that can aggravate tire wear that a casual inspection could miss. As mentioned earlier, ball joints or king pins could be the problem, as could front wheel bearings. Could be a combination of things.

[hermanmullins]

When the alignment is done is the motor  cycle on the back? If the vehicle is aligned with it off and is then mounted on the rack it will change the specs.

After it is aligned how did it drive without the cycle and with the cycle mounted?

Herman 

[wolfe10]

Yup, need more FACTS.

Axle weights as you drive (motorcycle onboard) in addition to other requested information. A severely underloaded front axle can result in significant handling issues.

Thanks.

[hermanmullins]

Looking at a Itasca 30B, a 30 foot Class A unit, I see a unit with a lot of overhang on the rear. Add the weight of a cycle on to it and I wonder if the wheel don't leave the ground on a severe bump or dip.

A trip the the scales with and without the cycle will reveal a lot.

Herman

[Invent1]

Thanks for the replies. Exc. forum: questions and answers very focused.

Here's the history by mileage (coach is  a 30B Itasca riding on a F53 chassis)

800 miles  (new) all the original G670 Goodyear tires had immediate problems. After re-balancing and swapping them around, the dealer finally replaced four of them.  They still cause vibration. 

22,000 miles.the Goodyear tires front tires were destroyed with rivering  and replaced with Bridgestones on.

33,000 miles: rear Goodyear tires also wore out prematurely and I replaced them with Hankook AH11's.   

63000 miles the Hankooks (rear) have gone 30,000 miles are still in good condition (13-14/32 tread depth and worn evenly across all tires); The Bridegestones are as shown.

The motorcycle has been on the back for nearly all of the miles (multiple loops around the US). The bike is a Hayabusa weighing  573 wet with a rack I made myself weighing less than 100 lbs and the bike is mounted  adjacent to the rear bumper.  All the heavy items added to the coach were set as far forward as possible to minimize the effect. 2 pics

 

 

[rayin]

2 hours ago, Invent1 said:

Thanks for the replies. Exc. forum: questions and answers very focused.

Here's the history by mileage (coach is  a 30B Itasca riding on a F53 chassis)

800 miles  (new) all the original G670 Goodyear tires had immediate problems. After re-balancing and swapping them around, the dealer finally replaced four of them.  They still cause vibration. 

22,000 miles.the Goodyear tires front tires were destroyed with rivering  and replaced with Bridgestones on.

33,000 miles: rear Goodyear tires also wore out prematurely and I replaced them with Hankook AH11's.   

63000 miles the Hankooks (rear) have gone 30,000 miles are still in good condition (13-14/32 tread depth and worn evenly across all tires); The Bridegestones are as shown.

The motorcycle has been on the back for nearly all of the miles (multiple loops around the US). The bike is a Hayabusa weighing  573 wet with a rack I made myself weighing less than 100 lbs and the bike is mounted  adjacent to the rear bumper.  All the heavy items added to the coach were set as far forward as possible to minimize the effect. 2 pics

 

 

Any progress on corner weights yet?

[richard5933]

Wow - if you had problems out of the gate which were not corrected with the usual methods I'd strongly suspect some type of defect.

Bent wheel?

Defective wheel hub?

Loose wheel bearing(s)?

Bent axle?

Just a few things which could be defective from the factory and which may be overlooked if the shop of focused on tire problems. The front tires seem to be more problematic than the rear, so that's where I'd focus the search. Lots of things there that could be missed.

Just a wild thought, but maybe it's time to find a body shop with a laser inspection machine to confirm that the front frame clip is correctly installed and that there are no problems there stemming from a factory problem. Or perhaps it was damaged during assembly and not properly repaired.

 

[jleamont]

I would certainly take the unit to a frame shop for an alignment. I wonder what (if any) frame modifications were done by the coach manufacture. I good truck frame shop should be able to identify any defects in workmanship pretty fast.  

[wolfe10]

Have you weighed the axles with coach loaded as you travel including motorcycle?  That and the GAWRs from the weight sticker would be very helpful.

[bm02tj]

Was the wheel alignment done with the motorcycle on back and unit loaded in traveling trim 

If not you will have problems

[Invent1]

Update: it became clear that there was an internal problem on the tires.  On a recent trip across Florida, a strong vibration started, fortunately close to the destination. One tire developed significant cupping on the outer tread. 

I replaced the tires and upon dismounting the old tires found what I guess to be belt separation (see photos).

Even though the Bridgestone tires had a lot of tread left, I feel better having them off the coach.

It is good to note that the tires were never underinflated (actually over inflated by the tire chart for the weight on them) and never had any road obstacle damage.

FYI: the replacements are Firestone ST230, and cost $667 out the door. McGee was the tire dealer and they provided good service and techs.

Thanks to all for your experience and information.

 

 

[tireman9]

Yes I agree that it appears the tires have a belt detachment. What is the full DOT serial?

What is your scale weight reading on that axle?

What inflation have you been running?

Do you run a TPMS?  What is the low pressure warning alarm level?

 

Still looking for the axle weight numbers that were requested previously.

[Invent1]

The front axles had 5400 lbs on it per Flying J scale - 2,700/tire which is well below the max load for these tires.

The inflation has always been 90 psi cold. Never has either tire been low when checked. No TPMS.

The tires are gone now so I can't supply the full DOT serial number.

BM11588 was molded on the inside