Bully Dog for Cummins

[kentelarsen]

Anyone out there have experience with the Bully Dog add-on for Cummins 400HP engine?

Suppose to increase HP by 15% and mileage by 10%.

[five]

I'm not familiar with the Bully Dog, but I'd be skeptical of the big improvements noted. Also, if you have an Allison 3000 trans, 15% more HP would exceed the max for that trans.

[dickandlois]

Kent, Welcome to the FMCA forum !

Have Cummings run a complete print out of your engine ECM before and after you add the Bully Dog.

There is a good chance the change will cost more then what you gain down the road.

Rich.

[DaveAtherton]

Kent, you have expressed interest in add on chip or tuner to cummins 400 hp engine. Before you think about installing

anything thing, this add on is going to come with big price. Do your home work, direct from cummins or if it is cat do the

same.find out which sensors will be affected. I all ready know what cummins or cat is going to tell you and I also know

which sensors that will be affected. I would suggest on getting real good understanding with how the electronic engine

works. I can show without question,why cummins and cat will not respond in favor of chips or tuners. Now the people

that make these chips and tuners are going to relate a complete different story, just remember one thing replacement

cost for a cummins 400 h.p. Engine. $ 50,000 plus. Reason I'm not going deeper at present about damage that will occur

within the engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

[manholt]

Little confused, a 400 Cummins=$50K, but a 450 Cummins=$39K?! Lot of money. Also ref. 400 + 15% exceeds the Allison 3000 rating. A 450 runs with a 3000!

When I spoke with Cummins last year about increasing HP on my 425, they could do it, but recommended against it, because the gearing within my 3000 would have to be re calibrated for the extra HP and that would also change the computer settings for the engine and tranny.

The cost was not worth the extra 8-10% gain....I was actually looking for more torque, not HP.

Carl

[DaveAtherton]

Carl good point the cost is not worth with what you will gain. if anything is done to increase power and take

it to cummins or cat and put the monkey on someone else. many people talk fuel milage and many talk more

power. remember the good old days when you drove a 230 hp cummins than powered up to a 250 and pulled

73,250 truck and trailer together. now we have a motorhome around 35,000# and now have a ISL 400 and want more

power driving most of the same roads.Being on a fixed income when is there enough power anymore.

Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

[jlandon13399]

Kent,

Another welcome to the Forum. When it comes to diesel motorhomes the following should be on your list:

1. Buy the floor plan you want.

2. Buy the horsepower you need for the motorhome weight plus the toad.

3. Mileage will be affected by many factors; weight of RV and toad, winds, speed, and road elevation. The only things you can control are weight and speed.

I too would stay away from any add-ons as Cummins and Cat have developed the spec's for torque and horsepower. If more of each is required buy a different coach.

Best of luck and safe travels.

[five]

As an add on to what Kent said, you really don't have much choice when it comes to MH engines. You can either find the floor plan you like and take the engine it has, or find the engine you like and take the floor plan it has. This is not like car shopping where you have a choice of engines. Usually the manufacturer is going to put an adequate engine in the vehicle to do the job. We opt for floor plan over engine...so far it's worked out fine. We figure we'll spend more time living in it than driving it.

[dc8mdtmech]

I owned the bully dog and installed it on a 6.4 ford. Out of the package, the first thing is to attach it to your computer and download your specific engine data. It will tune both your engine and your transmission control. It has three different settings for power. It plugs into your computer site in your truck and will suction cup where you want it. For my 6.4 ford, it was awesome and added the power to travel to the Montana Mountains pulling a travel trailer. You do have to be careful though, it will add a lot of HP and Torque. It will spin the tires, big time. For service it is very easy to remove and re set to factory spec.

[wolfe10]

I owned the bully dog and installed it on a 6.4 ford.

We may be comparing apples to oranges comparing a PU to a DP. With very rare exception, those on this forum with diesels have larger diesels installed in the rear (Diesel Pushers).

Adding HP adds heat and cooling on DP's is already marginal on those long grades. Also, many transmissions are at their HP/torque max without adding power.

[DaveAtherton]

Now for the down side of above Bully Dog setup. first of all Ford Navstar diesel engine ( with top end Cat heui system and

cat sensors.) With electronic engine engine there are 5 sensors that report direct to the ECM and are controlled 5 volt sensors,

and a person cannot over drive voltage to these 5 sensors that are all 5 volt.to increase power, the boost pressure, intake

manifold pressure sensor, fuel pressure sensor and last the atmosphere pressure sensor. note that all these pressure sensors are

all wired together direct to the ECM. yes you can over drive a 5 volt pressure sensor for a while but need to understand , all

the above pressure sensors tied together only thing different is the signal wire from the ECM. when failure starts pressure sensors

stop. The cast block engine has a little harden steel insert sleeve that take just so much increased pressure. the engine head bolts will stretch. i have'nt talked about heating up but that is a given. lets go back and remove chip and return to stock to work on

engine. one thing all events are recorded on the ECM. where I have been seeing many failures and derate of diesel engines

because the above 5 volt pressure sensors are also derate sensors. Cummins has the same 5 volt sensors as above and also

will derate engine. we have many pickup pulling big fifth wheel trailers that been along the road and had no power and over

heating. most repair shops Ford, Dodge ,Durmax will not work on pickups that havew chipped. this is the same order for

Cat dealer and Cummins Dealers. most Deisel engines will go the long mile but when we as owners go away and not listen to

the people that build these engines and do not recommend add on chips and tunners, they very much know what there talking

about. If there was a dollar to be made with install of chip and tunners than Ford, Dodge,Durmax, big boys with Cat and Cummins.

It is spelled out as not worth the risk to a high dollar engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

[wildebill308]

Anyone out there have experience with the Bully Dog add-on for Cummins 400HP engine?

Suppose to increase HP by 15% and mileage by 10%.

You might like to read this thread.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cummins-isl-400-hp-power-chip-installation-109573.html

Bill

[DaveAtherton]

Bill good post, going to fuel pressure sensor on fuel rail ( this sensor is a 5 volt sensor that I mentioned in above post ).

and No this group of sensors meaning 5 volt are not meant or designed to be over driven as this would happen

with bully dog being applyed.the values of the sensors are clearly spelled out on cummins Insite. as I mentioned the

makers of the chips and tuners will present all there plus facts to a certain group and cummins the engine maker will stand

with there views. In the end if a person goes out of the box and decides to over drive a electrical sensor with more voltage

to provide XYZ power than so be it. The same goes for running above rated rpm's and again yes you can. will damage happen

ahead with out of the box additions answer is yes. what is to be gained not following OEM spec's, another point of intrest

going with EPA on Diesel exhaust not meeting standards EPA certified the cummins 400 being on top of all the regulations

there is a pretty large fine involved in this area. If you read post on the Cat engines and problems meeting present exhaust

reg's there is no gray area. Ask Brett, Or Ken Carpenter in last part of July about Cat C-9 re-gen problems and Cat would

not bent on EPA rules. I think everyone has there points on the subject but having legal add on with exhaust a person is

subject to very large fines for tampering with a EPA certified engine. Dave Atherton Retired Cat Mechanic

[manholt]

A lot off interesting info that I did not know! Thank you.

That being said, if your Bank account is deep enough and your **** bent on having both floor plan and HP...have a DP Custom made for you! The biggest engine I have seen is a 725 Volvo in a DP. MPG, I would guess is around 3 to 4. Just remember that even a Custom Coach, has it's limitations!

Back to normal. AMC will allow you a choice of engines on the Tradition, Eagle and Heritage, also a floor plan that you like from a different year. In other words, I have been in contact with them about building me a Tradition 45' Y, that's the floor plan I have now and a 600 Cummins. Have not been quoted a price yet from factory!

Carl

[urbanhermit]

The owner of a very well respected heavy duty automotive garage here told me Bully Dog was far and away the best ECU tuner on the market.  He also told me the feds are suing the makers of Bully Dog for environmental violations and are trying to get their customer list (one registers one's BD unit and gets updates by e-mail) to sue individuals for the same.  "Buy one anonymously from a supplier." 

I did.  O'Reilly's, a listed BD distributor.  The O'Reilly's guy and I laughing agreed I was going to put it in a mud bogger.  Didn't install it (2006 5.9 Cummins in a 36-foot Monaco Cayman )because it came with a current adapter -- Something2 -- and I had a previous adaptor, Something 1.  Now have obtained an adaptor for the adaptor through web research after an unpleasant man at BD told me since I didn't buy it directly from them I had to go back to where I bought it.  Rude, curt, and brusque.  The O'Reilly's guy did his best over the phone, referred me to an O'Reilly's parts specialist, who said he'd research and call me.  I'm still waiting two weeks later.  Have since had two e-mails ignored by BD's manufacturer.  This is shaping up to be the worst customer service I've ever experienced. 

But maybe a good thing. After reading through this thread and some of the one referenced and linked, I'm thinking I wasted $500. 

[hermanmullins]

UH, please note that this topic is 5 year old.

Herman 

[dickandlois]

Herman, The thread may be old, but the information is still relevant. Opening Pandora's box could get much more expensive now and in the years to come.

Rich.

[manholt]

Rich, that's an understatement... however, Hermit has a pre 2007 engine, so a BD should not be a problem IMHO.  Now, between 07 and current, the can of worms have grown exponentially!

[rayin]

I'm with Carl, I never try to out-engineer the  design engineers. Things like this might happen:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/engine-explodes-out-of-tractor-pull-semi-truck.981753/

[wildebill308]

Yet if you do it right you could squese a little more out like this Freightliner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvs5jYCMSD8

Bill

[urbanhermit]

18 hours ago, DickandLois said:

Herman, The thread may be old, but the information is still relevant. Opening Pandora's box could get much more expensive now and in the years to come.

Rich.

Thank you.

[urbanhermit]

Okay, gentlemen, I'm taking this thread very seriously and thank you all for your input, especially Dave's take as a retired diesel mechanic.  So -- Dave -- please explain, as Diesels For Dummies, what is meant by overdriving the sensors.  I understand (?) this involves electric signals from the ECU to the sensors, or vise versa --- and that you say over time the overdriving will begin damaging sensors and shut the engine down, even cause severe internal damage.  But  can you be more specific about that? 

Also, while I clearly see the reasoning that the manufacturer's specifications and ECU profiles are set with a great deal more authority than an aftermarket chip manufacturer's, what about the restraints put on manufacturers by the fed to meet the environmental standards of hysterics in California, where every substance on God's green earth is known to cause cancer or destroy the ozone layer?  My original impression was that Bully Dog's mildest (at least) of it's three settings did little more than engineer around the choking down (figurative expression) to meet the environmental compromises, like taking the smog pump of a 1975 Dodge Cordoba (you can judge my era and consequent lack of real knowledge about all this).  Bully Dog warns that their extreme profile will necessitate significant transmission mods, even replacement, in pickups, but I wouldn't be foolish enough to use that setting.

I've listed my brand new BD, with it's chip still sealed inside it's envelope, for sale on craigslist as a result of reading through this thread the first time.  That and I can't get the BD people to give me the time of day about installation procedures or how to download the proper data for an engine and vehicle combination their site doesn't list.  But I'm in the process of giving up with keen disappointment.  My rig is barely alive for the first five or ten seconds away from idle, until a little bit of boost builds, and I'm disappointed with the fuel consumption. 

[jleamont]

1 hour ago, UrbanHermit said:

and that you say over time the overdriving will begin damaging sensors and shut the engine down

Dave typically doesn't monitor this page so I can explain what I believe he was referring to.

He's retired, I am still in the business.

Most aftermarket performance tuners/chips etc will force sensors and actuators to out perform their design, some will send more voltage in, others will manipulate and provide false readings so actuators will keep pushing past their designed threshold to achieve more power.

Great example; I had a customer come into the shop a few years ago complaining that his 6 speed manual transmission keeps cracking the case. I replaced the transmission case and took the truck for a ride. Unknown to me the 7.3L power stroke was turned up to almost 600hp, fun ride it was. Back to the topic, I could hear the electronic solenoids on the injectors grinding on acceleration, keep in mind, I could hear this over the diesel cackle. From the factory they were 110V DC, out of curiosity I monitored them via the scan tool, his tune was sending 140V DC into them. There was a few other safety items built in for protection that the software was forcing to ignore, one was injection timing, as you accelerated it would yank injection timing out of its designed threshold and over power the fuel injectors thus creating more power.  There was a few other items it was manipulating by either ignoring one sensor so the engine would continue to push to meet its required threshold while others it was sending more voltage into it to make it do something it wasn't designed to do. This is too technical to get into detail but that was how they achieved more power. I did ask him if he had other issues with all of that power and he was on his 3rd set of fuel injectors and the truck was still under base warranty, of course he paid out of pocket for those injector replacements at $525.00 per injector installed times 8 as it was a V8 Diesel. He brought it to us as the selling dealer was denying him any warranty now. 

[urbanhermit]

jleamont, thank you.  Despite my "Diesels for Dummies," I've got a bit of general technical knowledge and what you wrote is very clear and understandable to me. 

Shall I take from this that any fiddling with stock ECU parameters is a step away from designed reliability/durability, and if so, would a mild remapping might not be too undesirable but as the "push" gets more extreme, the dangers increase proportionately?  Is there anything to the idea that a mild mapping would do little more than negate EPA regs and provide no more stress on components than for the same engine mapped for off-road, construction, or marine?

 

 

[manholt]

Call Banks system in Anaheim, Ca.  Also, have you called Cummings Hot Line with your Engine number  & asked them what year your engine is?  Just because you have a 2006 coach, does not guarantee that so is your engine!

Joe is 100% right.